Colas

[Timmy U]

7 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Just as I figured. You can't name a single prospect who should have been developed, but wasn't. Maybe you should call the baseball police. Something's amiss. LOL. 

Because I have a problem, I just went over the Sox 2019 draft. I don't know if it is scouting or player development, but take a look at this disaster:

1. Andrew Vaughn 1b 2. Matthew Thompson rhp 3. Andrew Dalquist rhp 4. James Beard of 5. Dan Metzdorf rhp 6. Avery Weems lhp 7. Karan Patel rhp 8. Ivan Gonzalez, c 9 Nate Pawecyzk rhp 11. Victor Torres, c 12. Misael Gonzalez of 13. Cooper Bradford rhp 14. McKinley Moore rhp 15. Caleb Freeman rhp 16. DJ Gladney of/1b 17. Jeremiah Burke rhp 18. Sammy Peralta lhp 19. Joshua Rivera rhp 20. Cameron Simmons, of 21. Chase Solesky rhp 22. Logan Glass of 23. Paul Milito, rhp 24 Jakob Goldfarb c 25. Hansen Butler rhp 26. Justin Freeman rhp 27. Tyler Osik c 28. Caeden Trenkle of 29. Kaleb Roper rhp 30. Daniel Millwee c.

The "successes" of the group are Vaughn, a below-league-average 1b, Thompson cuz you were able to trade him for a AAA reliever, Avery Weems cuz you were able to trade him as a throw in for Lance Lynn, McKinley Moore cuz you were able to trade him for since-released Adam Haseley, Caleb Freeman because he's still a fringe reliever prospect, DJ Gladney because he's a fringe corner prospect, Peralta because he pitched in the majors before getting DFA, Chase Solesky because he's been a decent org innings eater, and Daniel Millwee because he's a well-regarded minor league coach.  That is not much.

2021, 2022, and 2023 look much better so there's hope for better days ahead. But you can't say the Sox are league average in either drafting or development.

 

[Timmy U]

12 minutes ago, Quin said:

And because this was using Top 30 lists to help, I forgot to add in the relief prospects like Zach Thompson (who eventually found his way to the majors with Toronto), Tyler Johnson (died upon reaching Charlotte) or Bennett Sousa.

Don't forget Ian Hamilton. He was a prospect for the Sox but had a lot of bad luck. Now he's a very useful player for the Yankees.

[Quin]

11 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

Don't forget Ian Hamilton. He was a prospect for the Sox but had a lot of bad luck. Now he's a very useful player for the Yankees.

I didn't include him because I figured that if he didn't get into a car crash or hit in the face with a foul ball, he'd have turned out OK, but it's impossible to know and unless Getz really hated him, he couldn't do anything.

[Chicago White Sox]

10 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Tell me, did the director of player development make the decisions to rush players, putting college starters in the bullpen, first basemen in the outfield? Did the director of player development make the decision to punt on draft rounds 3-10 in order to pull money to catch a high school kid in the 30th round? Did the director of player development trade guys like Fernando Tatis Jr, and such? 

This is such a stupid conversation. Please, anybody, give the name of one single prospect put into our minor league system who should have been a tip-in, and Chris Getz personally screwed up their development. I will wait for the answer. For a long, long time. 

Seriously. Type the name of one can't miss prospect who was screwed up by Getz's system. Type the name of one promising prospect who wasn't brought along properly. ONE. TYPE ONE NAME. 

It isn’t a stupid conversation at all and now you’re just being a dick for the sake of “optimism”.  Your argument basically comes down to “Getz was a good farm director because he didn’t make players worse than when they entered the system” and that’s straight up laughable.  His job wasn’t to simply make players better (any level of coaching should do that), but to get these kids to actually be prepared for the majors when they arrive and ultimately reach their potential.

Your example of “wins” for Getz are bunch of top 10 - 40 prospects who mostly underperformed at the majors or were called up with significant development still needed.  Lucas Giolito literally had to go outside the organization because he was so broken.  Cease took multiple years at the majors to get on track.  The positional group has mostly underperformed (yes, injuries are a part of that).  You’re right, it’s not his fault that the org sucked at bringing in talent under Hostetler (and Paddy to some extent) and in certain cases guys were rushed.  But that doesn’t mean Getz should get a free pass for a lack of breakouts and be general underperformance.  And no, a bunch of relievers and utility guys taken in the later rounds doesn’t change the calculus when every other farm director has similar notches on their belt.

[southsider2k5]

33 minutes ago, fathom said:

I can’t be the only one who googled Tyler Johnson thinking “wait, he died?”

Well cross him off of the list.

[WestEddy]

59 minutes ago, Quin said:

I'll keep posting this god damn list

 

This list is silly and subjective. You don't differentiate between guys who were rushed by the GM, guys who got injured and never really came back, 38th rounders, guys like Ian Clarkin, who 2 other organizations "failed" also. The director of player development doesn't make MLB roster decisions, trades, or run the draft or international scouting. 

Until you address any of that, my work is done here. 

[Bob Sacamano]

11 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

This list is silly and subjective. You don't differentiate between guys who were rushed by the GM, guys who got injured and never really came back, 38th rounders, guys like Ian Clarkin, who 2 other organizations "failed" also. The director of player development doesn't make MLB roster decisions, trades, or run the draft or international scouting. 

Until you address any of that, my work is done here. 

Does your back hurt from moving those goal posts?

[southsider2k5]

23 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

This list is silly and subjective. You don't differentiate between guys who were rushed by the GM, guys who got injured and never really came back, 38th rounders, guys like Ian Clarkin, who 2 other organizations "failed" also. The director of player development doesn't make MLB roster decisions, trades, or run the draft or international scouting. 

Until you address any of that, my work is done here. 

If you want to differentiate, the burden is on you, not him.  That's how debate works. 

[WestEddy]

46 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

Because I have a problem, I just went over the Sox 2019 draft. I don't know if it is scouting or player development, but take a look at this disaster:

1. Andrew Vaughn 1b 2. Matthew Thompson rhp 3. Andrew Dalquist rhp 4. James Beard of 5. Dan Metzdorf rhp 6. Avery Weems lhp 7. Karan Patel rhp 8. Ivan Gonzalez, c 9 Nate Pawecyzk rhp 11. Victor Torres, c 12. Misael Gonzalez of 13. Cooper Bradford rhp 14. McKinley Moore rhp 15. Caleb Freeman rhp 16. DJ Gladney of/1b 17. Jeremiah Burke rhp 18. Sammy Peralta lhp 19. Joshua Rivera rhp 20. Cameron Simmons, of 21. Chase Solesky rhp 22. Logan Glass of 23. Paul Milito, rhp 24 Jakob Goldfarb c 25. Hansen Butler rhp 26. Justin Freeman rhp 27. Tyler Osik c 28. Caeden Trenkle of 29. Kaleb Roper rhp 30. Daniel Millwee c.

The "successes" of the group are Vaughn, a below-league-average 1b, Thompson cuz you were able to trade him for a AAA reliever, Avery Weems cuz you were able to trade him as a throw in for Lance Lynn, McKinley Moore cuz you were able to trade him for since-released Adam Haseley, Caleb Freeman because he's still a fringe reliever prospect, DJ Gladney because he's a fringe corner prospect, Peralta because he pitched in the majors before getting DFA, Chase Solesky because he's been a decent org innings eater, and Daniel Millwee because he's a well-regarded minor league coach.  That is not much.

2021, 2022, and 2023 look much better so there's hope for better days ahead. But you can't say the Sox are league average in either drafting or development.

 

I pretty much agree with all of this. Hostetler's drafts always seemed to get generally good ratings from the "experts", but then the pitchers who make it up to AAA turn out to be junk-ballers who would be killed in the majors. Looking back years later, yes, 2019 was a disaster of a draft. 

[JoeCredeYes]

Do we have confirmation on the corresponding move yet?  I find it hard to believe ILoy is ready, already. 

[Quin]

32 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

This list is silly and subjective. You don't differentiate between guys who were rushed by the GM, guys who got injured and never really came back, 38th rounders, guys like Ian Clarkin, who 2 other organizations "failed" also. The director of player development doesn't make MLB roster decisions, trades, or run the draft or international scouting. 

Until you address any of that, my work is done here. 

[Bob Sacamano]

15 minutes ago, JoeCredeYes said:

Do we have confirmation on the corresponding move yet?  I find it hard to believe ILoy is ready, already. 

I feel like its probably going to be Stassi.

[WestEddy]

39 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

It isn’t a stupid conversation at all and now you’re just being a dick for the sake of “optimism”.  Your argument basically comes down to “Getz was a good farm director because he didn’t make players worse than when they entered the system” and that’s straight up laughable.  His job wasn’t to simply make players better (any level of coaching should do that), but to get these kids to actually be prepared for the majors when they arrive and ultimately reach their potential.

Your example of “wins” for Getz are bunch of top 10 - 40 prospects who mostly underperformed at the majors or were called up with significant development still needed.  Lucas Giolito literally had to go outside the organization because he was so broken.  Cease took multiple years at the majors to get on track.  The positional group has mostly underperformed (yes, injuries are a part of that).  You’re right, it’s not his fault that the org sucked at bringing in talent under Hostetler (and Paddy to some extent) and in certain cases guys were rushed.  But that doesn’t mean Getz should get a free pass for a lack of breakouts and be general underperformance.  And no, a bunch of relievers and utility guys taken in the later rounds doesn’t change the calculus when every other farm director has similar notches on their belt.

If you want to make the argument that the White Sox are behind the league when it comes to development, great. Make that argument, and I'd agree with you. If you're going to ask me to type out the names of every single white Sox prospect who played in the majors so you can make arguments why they don't count, I'm tired of participating in that word game. 

Players are responsible for their own training in the off-season. If they body-build instead of working on baseball skills, that's on them. Many players all over the league go to places like Driveline to improve their skills. That's not some indictment of the team. Every team has players who do this, so therefore, every team sucks at development. That's a ludicrous argument. 

Dylan Cease was shaky in his first season in the bigs, as many great pitchers are, was still shaky during the COVID season, then put together a strong, solid, first full big league season. That's not a fail. Drafting a catcher with a hitch in his swing with the 10th pick of a weak draft class is more of an indictment of drafting. Not being able to fix him is on development. Rushing him to the majors is on the GM. 

I get exasperated with this discussion because guys like Giolito and Cease are development wins. Yes, they should have been converting on guys like Alec Hansen, Wes Kath, Lincoln Henzman, Thornton/Dalquist. They don't. I'm not going to pretend to know why. 

 

[Polar Bear]

19 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I thought you had a limit on how many times you can do it in said season now.

This is correct in some way.  Its like 6 or 7 times in one season, not sure if the initial option counts though 

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Polar Bear said:

This is correct in some way.  Its like 6 or 7 times in one season, not sure if the initial option counts though 

It's 5

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

If you are saying “where is the list of dynamite prospects that failed” aren’t you tacitly admitting that there was no development done, period.  We have nothing here.  The cupboard is empty, the man who used to curate the cupboard is now in charge.  Yay let’s eat, right 

The path of this argument pretty much always goes: 

1) "where are the MLB players who we developed?"

2) I list out players that came through our system

3) None of those count, because reasons. (took too long, had their own trainer, were just really good)

4) I then list out the shitty, later round draft choices who topped out at AAA, but made prospect lists

5) Everybody laughs because they "failed". 

It's a dishonest argument. The White Sox are behind the league in development. It's stupid to declare that they didn't develop anybody, except for those they did, but none of the successes count. 

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Does your back hurt from moving those goal posts?

Oh, everybody else should talk. The goalposts have more miles on them than my car from "name people we developed!!" "No, they don't count, because they had talent!!!"

[Polar Bear]

16 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It's 5

So only 3 more times he can come up, that can't be right can it?

 

If so, why the f use one knowing he wasn't going to play 

[Bob Sacamano]

1 minute ago, Polar Bear said:

So only 3 more times he can come up, that can't be right can it?

 

If so, why the f use one knowing he wasn't going to play 

This organization is stupid, that's why lol

And technically it means he can be called up 4 more times. It just means he would have to finish the year on the team if he were to be called up that fourth time.

Edited April 12 by Bob Sacamano

[Dick Allen]

12 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Tell me, did the director of player development make the decisions to rush players, putting college starters in the bullpen, first basemen in the outfield? Did the director of player development make the decision to punt on draft rounds 3-10 in order to pull money to catch a high school kid in the 30th round? Did the director of player development trade guys like Fernando Tatis Jr, and such? 

This is such a stupid conversation. Please, anybody, give the name of one single prospect put into our minor league system who should have been a tip-in, and Chris Getz personally screwed up their development. I will wait for the answer. For a long, long time. 

Seriously. Type the name of one can't miss prospect who was screwed up by Getz's system. Type the name of one promising prospect who wasn't brought along properly. ONE. TYPE ONE NAME. 

I would think he had a say, yes.

[Kyyle23]

4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

The path of this argument pretty much always goes: 

1) "where are the MLB players who we developed?"

2) I list out players that came through our system

3) None of those count, because reasons. (took too long, had their own trainer, were just really good)

4) I then list out the shitty, later round draft choices who topped out at AAA, but made prospect lists

5) Everybody laughs because they "failed". 

It's a dishonest argument. The White Sox are behind the league in development. It's stupid to declare that they didn't develop anybody, except for those they did, but none of the successes count. 

This is all strawman bullshit.  I haven’t said s%*# to you all winter as you grandstanded this site regaling all of us on the great qualities of Chris Getz,  and how this organization will be better for him being in charge.  There is nothing more dishonest than that.   This team is exactly where they are for a lot of reasons and Chris is a part of that.  Every one of us has every reason in the world to say “this fucking sucks and I don’t like this at all” because they all pulled the rug out from under us.  Chris has zero minor league wins in his pocket from the time he took over to now.  That’s just true.  I know it bothers you but there is literally nothing to point to.  Not every player enters an organization as a star and some of them have been developed by their organizations and tapped into their potential.  The Sox have absolutely none of that

so pardon me if I’m a little dissatisfied with Getzy in his time as GM, he hasn’t proved s%*# in the entire time he has been with this organization including his time as a player 

[Bob Sacamano]

Counting anyone who just gets to the majors is a pretty low bar, which is how I'm reading his argument. 

[WestEddy]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

I would think he had a say, yes.

You know, it really isn't hard to just concede a simple point. 

[WestEddy]

14 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

This is all strawman bullshit.  I haven’t said s%*# to you all winter as you grandstanded this site regaling all of us on the great qualities of Chris Getz,  and how this organization will be better for him being in charge.  There is nothing more dishonest than that.   This team is exactly where they are for a lot of reasons and Chris is a part of that.  Every one of us has every reason in the world to say “this fucking sucks and I don’t like this at all” because they all pulled the rug out from under us.  Chris has zero minor league wins in his pocket from the time he took over to now.  That’s just true.  I know it bothers you but there is literally nothing to point to.  Not every player enters an organization as a star and some of them have been developed by their organizations and tapped into their potential.  The Sox have absolutely none of that

so pardon me if I’m a little dissatisfied with Getzy in his time as GM, he hasn’t proved s%*# in the entire time he has been with this organization including his time as a player 

I have never "regaled you with the great qualities of Chris Getz". And one guy in the driver's seat is better than KW/Hahn. That is indisputable. Online sports discussion is such, that if somebody doesn't hear complete agreement with the echo chamber nonsense they spout off, they hear 'Chris Getz love' in their head, and then react to that. 

Yes, the losing and the lack of development is frustrating. I'll agree that Chris Getz was part of the organization during this period of failure, and most probably didn't push back, or put forth enough to derail the failure. Point conceded. 

When you say "there is literally nothing to point to", that is statement #1 in the cycle. I am not going to list out the obvious systemic wins for you, because you will then make up BS to prove that a guy the Sox developed doesn't count. I will then move on to pointing out late round draft picks who maxed out as ML utility men and bullpen arms, and you will pretend to laugh. That's the fallacy. Nobody the White Sox developed count, because reasons. And you're so dug in, you can't untrack yourself and say, "Okay, that is an organizational win." It has to be "zero". "Literally nothing." 

Be dissatisfied with Chris Getz. I fully support you in that endeavor. But when you state things that are demonstrably untrue, I'm not going to go all zombie-eyed, and agree with your BS. 

Edited April 12 by WestEddy

[Kyyle23]

We have all been regaled.  You are regaler.  Sorry