Colas

[ChiSox59]

6 minutes ago, JoeC said:

So when's the next Colas Call-up going to be?

My guess is before 5/15.

Hopefully.  He should be playing RF every single day to be honest.  There is zero good reason to play Grossman and/or Pillar over Colas at this point.  If the Sox had started 8-4 or something, I could see the arguement.  I was fine with Colas starting in AAA this year.  But considering the injuries and state of the roster, Colas should absolutely be playing.  Even if he boned Pedro's daughter, or whatever he did to get deep in the doghouse. 

[Quin]

9 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

I feel like the Getz thing is somewhere in the middle... and also kind of unknowable. 

If you made a list of any organization's prospects, there are going to be a ton of "failures."  That's just how it works across the league.  Did the Sox produce less major league talent than the rest of the MLB during that time?  I don't know but I'm guessing they probably did.  

Ok... how much of that is Getz's fault?  I'm not sure.  He was the farm director but who knows what type of decision-making power he had.  When he tried to implement something, was he overruled?  Everyone seems to understand that JR, KW, and TLR got their way when it came to Hahn's authority.  Am I to believe that JR, KW, TLR, and Hahn all gave Getz complete control and approved every suggestion?  Seems unlikely.  

Furthermore, even if Getz had more power and influence than we think he did, he still wasn't the one picking the players.  I'm not going to pretend I know enough about amateur baseball to know which failures are attributable to him and which failures are on the player, GM, scouting dept, etc.  I bet most people here share my ignorance. 

The people who are the loudest in attacking Getz's resume are all fans on the outside and AJ Pierzynski... and one episode of his podcast, AJ seemed confused and implying Getz was in charge of drafts... which was obviously not the case.  Other than that, it seems like a lot of the analysts and people connected to mlb have more respect for him than your typical SoxTalk poster or commenter under SoxMachine tweet.  

Where I think WestEddy is right is that there are a number of people who are just salty and ignoring actual successes on his resume.  You can say he didn't deserve the job and still acknowledge they produced some major league talent when he was around.  I think its unfair and kind of tiring to say he deserves all the blame for the failures but no recognition for Robert or depth pieces while trashing him for something relatively insignificant like sending Colas back down. 

Again... a lot of hyperventilating happening and I think its just residual anger from 2022-23.

Fine, riddle me this:

What about Getz's resume justified promoting him to GM?

[Nardiwashere]

1 minute ago, Quin said:

Fine, riddle me this:

What about Getz's resume justified promoting him to GM?

Reinsdorf liked him and knew who he was. haha. 

I would have loved it if they did a full exhaustive search.... but just because I didn't agree with the way he got the job... or that he got the job at all (!), I'm not going to waste calories trying to bash everything the guy does to prove I was right. 

I actually like some of the things he's done since he took over.  Its pretty obvious that the plan this season was to find pitching and field a lineup of guys who can defend, and hope the three hurt morons finally stayed healthy.  I don't believe he was dumb enough to think the team was going to be good.  So far, the pitching has been ok.  By the end of the year, I think we'll have a decent idea of our staff moving forward.  They'll bring up Montgomery and Ramos and we can see how they look in addition to a guy like Fletcher.

[Nardiwashere]

10 minutes ago, Quin said:

Fine, riddle me this:

What about Getz's resume justified promoting him to GM?

 

3 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

Reinsdorf liked him and knew who he was. haha. 

I would have loved it if they did a full exhaustive search.... but just because I didn't agree with the way he got the job... or that he got the job at all (!), I'm not going to waste calories trying to bash everything the guy does to prove I was right. 

I actually like some of the things he's done since he took over.  Its pretty obvious that the plan this season was to find pitching and field a lineup of guys who can defend, and hope the three hurt morons finally stayed healthy.  I don't believe he was dumb enough to think the team was going to be good.  So far, the pitching has been ok.  By the end of the year, I think we'll have a decent idea of our staff moving forward.  They'll bring up Montgomery and Ramos and we can see how they look in addition to a guy like Fletcher.

I'll add this... I also don't know what was happening behind closed doors.  What if Getz was on the losing (but right) side of 80% of the internal discussions during his time here?   I don't know enough about what he was doing day to day to say with confidence that he sucks.  I have enough evidence to be pretty sure that Hahn and Kenny sucked the last decade. 

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

Reinsdorf liked him and knew who he was. haha. 

I would have loved it if they did a full exhaustive search.... but just because I didn't agree with the way he got the job... or that he got the job at all (!), I'm not going to waste calories trying to bash everything the guy does to prove I was right. 

I actually like some of the things he's done since he took over.  Its pretty obvious that the plan this season was to find pitching and field a lineup of guys who can defend, and hope the three hurt morons finally stayed healthy.  I don't believe he was dumb enough to think the team was going to be good.  So far, the pitching has been ok.  By the end of the year, I think we'll have a decent idea of our staff moving forward.  They'll bring up Montgomery and Ramos and we can see how they look in addition to a guy like Fletcher.

If we could see the following lineup by August, it could be mildly interesting to watch.

C : Lee, 1B: AV, 2B: Sosa, SS: Montgomery, 3B: Ramos, LF: Beni, CF: Robert, RF: Colas/Fletcher, DH: Eloy/Sheets

BN: Sheets, Fletcher/Colas, Stassi/Maldonado, Shewmake/Lopez

[WestEddy]

19 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

The people who are the loudest in attacking Getz's resume are all fans on the outside and AJ Pierzynski... and one episode of his podcast, AJ seemed confused and implying Getz was in charge of drafts... which was obviously not the case.  Other than that, it seems like a lot of the analysts and people connected to mlb have more respect for him than your typical SoxTalk poster or commenter under SoxMachine tweet.  

The AJ podcast was a shitshow. 

I don't claim Getz was remaking the industry from his job. It looks like he did a fair-good job. Keith Law always hated the Sox' system, and he held up Micker Adolfo as an example of the White Sox finally solving their inability to develop hitters. That's a guy they took from a weight room marvel to an actual, thinking, baseball hitter. So, good on him for that, I guess. 

Personally, I wish the Sox had conducted a full search and interview process, and just gone outside the organization for a new GM. That would at least have bought him/her a bit of a honeymoon period to operate, and make the uncomfortable decisions. Getz didn't, and the fact he was part of the old regime was a distraction from day one. 

Mike Shirley's drafts look a lot better than any of Hostetler's, so maybe procurement was a big problem. 

[BigHurt3515]

Poor Colas

[WestEddy]

22 minutes ago, Quin said:

Fine, riddle me this:

What about Getz's resume justified promoting him to GM?

Do you have a copy of his resume? Looking on LinkedIn, he worked in front offices since 2014, and was asst. GM/head of player development before his promotion. That's probably enough for a first time GM. 

As I said to Nardi, I really wish they picked outside the organization. Getz being linked to the KW/Hahn regime is a distraction until the team actually turns the corner again. That said, he's GM, and all the screeching won't change that. 

[ScootsMcGoots]

Why does being a white sox fan have to be filled with so much pain ?

[Nardiwashere]

22 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Personally, I wish the Sox had conducted a full search and interview process, and just gone outside the organization for a new GM. That would at least have bought him/her a bit of a honeymoon period to operate, and make the uncomfortable decisions. Getz didn't, and the fact he was part of the old regime was a distraction from day one. 

If he was from outside the organization, he could also be a lot more assertive in public/interviews about "We are going to change a lot of things" and "Things are going to be different."

Even if its bullshit, that's the type of stuff people say when they get a GM job and fans like to hear it. 

I bet there is some reluctance to do that since he was here, knows the guys he'd be indirectly trashing, and maybe even liked them/feels gratitude to them for hiring him.

[Dick Allen]

28 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Do you have a copy of his resume? Looking on LinkedIn, he worked in front offices since 2014, and was asst. GM/head of player development before his promotion. That's probably enough for a first time GM. 

As I said to Nardi, I really wish they picked outside the organization. Getz being linked to the KW/Hahn regime is a distraction until the team actually turns the corner again. That said, he's GM, and all the screeching won't change that. 

If you were successful at it.

[Kyyle23]

50 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

 

I'll add this... I also don't know what was happening behind closed doors.  What if Getz was on the losing (but right) side of 80% of the internal discussions during his time here?   I don't know enough about what he was doing day to day to say with confidence that he sucks.  I have enough evidence to be pretty sure that Hahn and Kenny sucked the last decade. 

I would really like to give reinsdorf all of this benefit of the doubt but his entire life owning the Sox suggests I should not

[WestEddy]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If you were successful at it.

One national guy who writes about prospects and organizations (Keith Law) singled out the Sox system for taking a huge leap... maybe not forward, but came a long way to catching up to being able to develop hitters, and that happened on Getz's watch. And a lot of guys from the 21 and 22 drafts have shown much more promise than I ever remember a class of prospects having. 

 

[Sleepy Harold]

Small ball Jesus returns to bunt and get dirty just like Pedro likes.

[Snopek]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Okay, I've taken out all the guys you concede were "wins". Here's the rest: (my comments in orange)

no, they aren't "failures"

Eloy Jimenez - Failure - Dumb injuries derailed career, sapped strength
Luis Gonzalez - Failure - tried to sneak him through waivers, did well for a month w/Giants
Nick Madrigal - Failure - rushed, traded, more bWAR than 3 guys drafted before him
Reynaldo Lopez - Failure. EDIT: As a starter - relievers are people, too
Michael Kopech - Failure - see Lopez, also, head-case
Micker Adolfo - Failure - Keith Law considers this a big org win. Injuries derailed him. Went from not knowing baseball to actual bat-first prospect. The main failure was rostering on 40-man too early, ran out of options. 
Jimmy Lambert - Failure - no he isn't. Late rounder found bullpen success

injured

Jonathan Stiever - Failure
Sean Burke - TBD, not looking good
Norge Vera - TBD, but so far, failure

rushed

Carson Fulmer - Failure - predates Getz
Oscar Colas - Pedro hates him - undeveloped, might just be a bonehead.

jury's out

Matthew Thompson - Failure
Jared Kelly - TBD, but so far, failure

yes, couldn't correct flaws

Zack Collins - Failure
Alec Hansen - Disastrous failure
Blake Rutherford - Failure
Yoelqui Cespedes - Failure

you kidding me?

Benyamin Bailey - Failure
Bryce Bush - Failure

the rest
Zack Burdi - Failure - sure. Maybe belongs under 'didn't correct flaws'
Spencer Adams - Failure - okay. AAAA pitcher, maybe?
Ian Clarkin - Failure - 2 other orgs couldn't, either, but, sure. 
Andrew Dalquist - Failure - starting to look like a reliever

Luis Basabe - Failure - see Clarkin, also, rostered too soon, ran out of options
DJ Gladney - Failure - actually, jury's still out. Looked good last year. Slow learner
James Beard - Failure - sure. maybe some guys just never adjust to pro ball. 
Carlos Perez - Failure at this point due to defense - I have no idea. Defense took with many others
Wes Kath - Failure - yes! high five me, dude!

So, there's my reaction to your list. I'd actually go further, wondering what happened to Lincoln Henzman, Tyler Johnson and Kade McClure from the 2017 draft. I think 2020 conked out a lot of the bubble guys. Also 2017, guys like Blake Battenfield and John Parke made it through the system, and their junk-ball stuff just didn't play at the higher levels. Bad drafting along with not maxing out the ground ball pitchers? 

In the 2018 draft, they actually got 10 guys from up and down the draft to the majors. But the big misses that year were guys like Luke Shilling, 100 mph guy who couldn't throw strikes, never learned then TJS. A lot of the guys who missed wound up with lengthy injuries. 

The 2019 draft was a disaster, and yeah, I wonder how Thompson, Dalquist and Beard all underwhelmed. Avery Weems, tho. And 2020 - Garret Crochet. Coffey, Kelly and Horn are still developing. 

I think Getz got the stars through at the beginning of his tenure, did a better job with the 2018 draft class, not sure if 2019 was just a draft-day disaster, and he was promoted in 2020. Not stellar, not the catastrophe everybody makes it out to be. 

I don't really have a dog in this fight because it's all just exhausting, but come on man.

Earlier you were basically asking for irrefutable evidence that proves the Getz system failed a given prospect, but much of your reasoning for why these guys aren't failures is based on your opinion.

[JoeC]

Shaw will be back.

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Sleepy Harold said:

Small ball Jesus returns to bunt and get dirty just like Pedro likes.

Well at least Shaw bit the dust too.

[Timmy U]

Remillard wasn’t even hitting in Charlotte.  This may be the least talented Sox roster in my lifetime. A lifetime that has seen a lot of bad baseball.

Happy to see Shaw go, though.

[chitownsportsfan]

3 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

Remillard wasn’t even hitting in Charlotte.  This may be the least talented Sox roster in my lifetime. A lifetime that has seen a lot of bad baseball.

Happy to see Shaw go, though.

I want to see big dick Mendick up at some point soon.

[Timmy U]

Just now, chitownsportsfan said:

I want to see big dick Mendick up at some point soon.

At Charlotte he has clearly been the better of the two. He’s also a better defender and has experience in the outfield.

[chitownsportsfan]

Just now, Timmy U said:

At Charlotte he has clearly been the better of the two. He’s also a better defender and has experience in the outfield.

Yup. And he's a fan favorite. So he'll probably just rot in Charlotte.

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

At Charlotte he has clearly been the better of the two. He’s also a better defender and has experience in the outfield.

They probably don’t want to lose Mendick and don’t really care if they have to DFA Remillard again in a few days when Eloy is ready. 

[Quin]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Okay, I've taken out all the guys you concede were "wins". Here's the rest: (my comments in orange)

no, they aren't "failures"

Eloy Jimenez - Failure - Dumb injuries derailed career, sapped strength
Luis Gonzalez - Failure - tried to sneak him through waivers, did well for a month w/Giants
Nick Madrigal - Failure - rushed, traded, more bWAR than 3 guys drafted before him
Reynaldo Lopez - Failure. EDIT: As a starter - relievers are people, too
Michael Kopech - Failure - see Lopez, also, head-case
Micker Adolfo - Failure - Keith Law considers this a big org win. Injuries derailed him. Went from not knowing baseball to actual bat-first prospect. The main failure was rostering on 40-man too early, ran out of options. 
Jimmy Lambert - Failure - no he isn't. Late rounder found bullpen success

injured

Jonathan Stiever - Failure
Sean Burke - TBD, not looking good
Norge Vera - TBD, but so far, failure

rushed

Carson Fulmer - Failure - predates Getz
Oscar Colas - Pedro hates him - undeveloped, might just be a bonehead.

jury's out

Matthew Thompson - Failure
Jared Kelly - TBD, but so far, failure

yes, couldn't correct flaws

Zack Collins - Failure
Alec Hansen - Disastrous failure
Blake Rutherford - Failure
Yoelqui Cespedes - Failure

you kidding me?

Benyamin Bailey - Failure
Bryce Bush - Failure

the rest
Zack Burdi - Failure - sure. Maybe belongs under 'didn't correct flaws'
Spencer Adams - Failure - okay. AAAA pitcher, maybe?
Ian Clarkin - Failure - 2 other orgs couldn't, either, but, sure. 
Andrew Dalquist - Failure - starting to look like a reliever

Luis Basabe - Failure - see Clarkin, also, rostered too soon, ran out of options
DJ Gladney - Failure - actually, jury's still out. Looked good last year. Slow learner
James Beard - Failure - sure. maybe some guys just never adjust to pro ball. 
Carlos Perez - Failure at this point due to defense - I have no idea. Defense took with many others
Wes Kath - Failure - yes! high five me, dude!

So, there's my reaction to your list. I'd actually go further, wondering what happened to Lincoln Henzman, Tyler Johnson and Kade McClure from the 2017 draft. I think 2020 conked out a lot of the bubble guys. Also 2017, guys like Blake Battenfield and John Parke made it through the system, and their junk-ball stuff just didn't play at the higher levels. Bad drafting along with not maxing out the ground ball pitchers? 

In the 2018 draft, they actually got 10 guys from up and down the draft to the majors. But the big misses that year were guys like Luke Shilling, 100 mph guy who couldn't throw strikes, never learned then TJS. A lot of the guys who missed wound up with lengthy injuries. 

The 2019 draft was a disaster, and yeah, I wonder how Thompson, Dalquist and Beard all underwhelmed. Avery Weems, tho. And 2020 - Garret Crochet. Coffey, Kelly and Horn are still developing. 

I think Getz got the stars through at the beginning of his tenure, did a better job with the 2018 draft class, not sure if 2019 was just a draft-day disaster, and he was promoted in 2020. Not stellar, not the catastrophe everybody makes it out to be. 

Somehow missed this buuuuuut

• Nick Madrigal having a higher WAR than the 3 drafted before him doesn't matter. Rodon was the consensus 1-1 draft pick until teams fell in love with Aiken and Kolek, but would you rather have Nola (who was getting mocked to the Sox quite a bit if I recall).
• ReyLo - Relievers are people too. He was acquired as a starter. Somehow through two games, he's been a good starter for the Braves.
• Kopech - Chris Sale is arguably a bigger nutcase. Kopech has flashed dominate stuff as a starter.
• Adolfo - I loved Adolfo as a prospect and suddenly he fell off the map. They needed a RF. If he was ready in time, well, he would have been there.
• Lambert - Eh, ok. I'll concede this one.
• Fulmer - Will concede that he was basically busted by the time Getz oversaw the farm.
• Bailey and Bush - You weren't here at the time, but Bailey and Bush had smoke about their raw talent. The thing is, you asked for a list. These are guys that an org like the Dodgers or Rays churns out and we all stare at in envy.
• Spencer Adams - A fringe #100 after his dominant rookie ball debut, but will concede that like Fulmer, pre-dates Getz.
• Clarkin - Just because other orgs can't figure it out doesn't mean the Sox get a pass.
• Dalquist has 1 IP of relief. He is, until further notice, horrendous. At draft time he had a lot of talk about his, for lack of a better phrase, pitchability.

However, since you mentioned Adisyn Coffey, Getz will get a big W if he develops. Dude should have a note on Baseball-Reference that says "drafted to help sign Garrett Crochet and Jared Kelley."

[WestEddy]

45 minutes ago, Snopek said:

I don't really have a dog in this fight because it's all just exhausting, but come on man.

Earlier you were basically asking for irrefutable evidence that proves the Getz system failed a given prospect, but much of your reasoning for why these guys aren't failures is based on your opinion.

Here's my challenge: 

Quote

Just as I figured. You can't name a single prospect who should have been developed, but wasn't. Maybe you should call the baseball police. Something's amiss. LOL. 

No, not irrefutable. Just a name. 

It's all opinion. I'm even conceding players who were probably failed by our development system. To people who won't even admit that White Sox minor leaguers who came through our minor league system and had success in the majors were even "developed" by the White Sox. That's the part that makes it exhausting. 

[WestEddy]

32 minutes ago, Quin said:

Somehow missed this buuuuuut

• Nick Madrigal having a higher WAR than the 3 drafted before him doesn't matter. Rodon was the consensus 1-1 draft pick until teams fell in love with Aiken and Kolek, but would you rather have Nola (who was getting mocked to the Sox quite a bit if I recall).
• ReyLo - Relievers are people too. He was acquired as a starter. Somehow through two games, he's been a good starter for the Braves.
• Kopech - Chris Sale is arguably a bigger nutcase. Kopech has flashed dominate stuff as a starter.
• Adolfo - I loved Adolfo as a prospect and suddenly he fell off the map. They needed a RF. If he was ready in time, well, he would have been there.
• Lambert - Eh, ok. I'll concede this one.
• Fulmer - Will concede that he was basically busted by the time Getz oversaw the farm.
• Bailey and Bush - You weren't here at the time, but Bailey and Bush had smoke about their raw talent. The thing is, you asked for a list. These are guys that an org like the Dodgers or Rays churns out and we all stare at in envy.
• Spencer Adams - A fringe #100 after his dominant rookie ball debut, but will concede that like Fulmer, pre-dates Getz.
• Clarkin - Just because other orgs can't figure it out doesn't mean the Sox get a pass.
• Dalquist has 1 IP of relief. He is, until further notice, horrendous. At draft time he had a lot of talk about his, for lack of a better phrase, pitchability.

However, since you mentioned Adisyn Coffey, Getz will get a big W if he develops. Dude should have a note on Baseball-Reference that says "drafted to help sign Garrett Crochet and Jared Kelley."

• Madrigal - Or it means that if the Sox failed, the Tigers, Giants and Phillies failed worse with their higher first rounders. I think if Rodon was gone, the Sox would have taken Nola. 
• ReyLo - a pitcher's a pitcher. Yes, a starter is more valuable, but they got what they could from him. 
• Kopech - Chris Sale's psychological problems didn't hinder his abilities. Maybe a Brian Bannister level sports psychologist is the next hire. 
• Adolfo also had TJS, and all. That guy is a true tragedy for the org. 
• I remember Bailey & Bush well. Bailey tore up the dominican summer league, and Bush looked like a steal where they took him. Sounds like Bush was a bit of a maturity issue. I don't think Paddy's the issue, just resource allocation and priorities. 
• Rooted for Adams. He just didn't really have major league stuff, right?
• Clarkin/Basabe - Yeah, a better organization can unlock guys. The Sox weren't (aren't?) a "better" org. 
• Thompson/Dalquist and the 3 guys I mentioned, picked 4,5,6 in 2017. Now we have Bannister. 

2005-20whenever was a vast wasteland. I agree. Getz most probably wasn't the best choice out there, but he's certainly better than Hahn. Low bar, I know.