Is it wrong to want the Sox to embarrass themselves?

[The Mighty Mite]

On 4/14/2024 at 5:10 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

I've been a fan for 63 seasons now. I hope they set the all-time record for worst single season in the modern era.

Ownership and the front office deserve nothing less than complete utter scorn and derision. 

I despise Reinsdork but I can’t take all this losing, I want my team to win, every loss is like another small paper cut so the answer to the OP’s question is no, I don’t want the Sox to embarrass themselves, I want the whole team to wake up one morning and have a gut check and maybe they turn things around and win a few games and at least have a little bit of respectability. 

[Spumoni]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

I wear the less obvious Sox hats more often these days.

I have a few good ones with the 1949-59 logo that I'll probably be bringing out as summer hits full swing.

[Falstaff]

59 minutes ago, Spumoni said:

I have a few good ones with the 1949-59 logo that I'll probably be bringing out as summer hits full swing.

My best friend, God rest his soul, was a diehard Cub fan. He bought me a Sox Starter jacket back in 1990. It' red, white, and blue, with the Sox logo and batter.  It still looks brand new.

Edited April 16 by Falstaff
typo

[Bananarchy]

The White Sox have basically put the fans on the "pay no mind" list, so yeah, they should suffer.

[NO!!MARY!!!]

That’s idiotic and completely unsurprising 

[Laughlin Phil]

And the Sox are getting younger pitching, but they are not getting younger players experience at other positions. Today signing Thommy Pham? This is truly nothing but a dumpster fire. Get rid of the projects and also rans. At least lets lose with exciting youngsters across the board, get a manager with a clue on how to develop players and actually manage. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The OP asked is it wrong. From a morality point of view I don't thin it's right that's for sure. We should never wish bad things to happen to one another. It darkens the soul.

[wegner]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

The OP asked is it wrong. From a morality point of view I don't thin it's right that's for sure. We should never wish bad things to happen to one another. It darkens the soul.

Can I still hate the Cubs? And Yankees? And Astros? And Twins? And Manfred?

[Quin]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

The OP asked is it wrong. From a morality point of view I don't thin it's right that's for sure. We should never wish bad things to happen to one another. It darkens the soul.

You literally cannot cheer for a sports team without hoping something bad happens to someone.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, Quin said:

You literally cannot cheer for a sports team without hoping something bad happens to someone.

Define something bad. In a sports contest it's accepted that there will be a winner and a loser. Are you comparing sports competition with wishing the whole franchise falls apart ? I really see no connection at all.

[Quin]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Define something bad. In a sports contest it's accepted that there will be a winner and a loser. Are you comparing sports competition with wishing the whole franchise falls apart ? I really see no connection at all.

I'm not the one throwing out "darkening the soul," but here we go:

• If you want Andrew Vaughn to hit a home run, that's going to negatively affect a pitcher's possible career. Maybe it extends an inning to the point where they narrowly miss out on an All-Star game, and thus financial bonuses.
• If you want Crochet to strike out a rookie making his major league debut, maybe that rookie gets stuck in his head and gets sent back down.
• If you root for the Sox to win the division, you're hoping for the other four AL Central teams to do poorly, putting the careers of their front offices and coaching staffs at risk.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 minutes ago, wegner said:

Can I still hate the Cubs? And Yankees? And Astros? And Twins? And Manfred?

. You have a favorite team. You want it to win and you want other teams to lose when they play your team. I think there's a difference between dislike and hate.  I don't see the point of hate. It's a popular word that's lost it's true meaning. Hate is an ugly foul thing.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 minute ago, Quin said:

I'm not the one throwing out "darkening the soul," but here we go:

• If you want Andrew Vaughn to hit a home run, that's going to negatively affect a pitcher's possible career. Maybe it extends an inning to the point where they narrowly miss out on an All-Star game, and thus financial bonuses.
• If you want Crochet to strike out a rookie making his major league debut, maybe that rookie gets stuck in his head and gets sent back down.
• If you root for the Sox to win the division, you're hoping for the other four AL Central teams to do poorly, putting the careers of their front offices and coaching staffs at risk.

 

Look if u wish to have a philosophical or moral based debate on cheering for your favorite team find another taker.

Everyone who is on the playing field accepts there are winners and losers and those who have more talent win more often.

I cannot control what the franchise does so I am not angry because I can't control that situation . Just because it's my favorite team and they are terrible is no reason to wish for it's destruction. They aren't doing anything to us. They are just a poorly run business. It's spite for no real reason. It's your prerogative as a consumer not to buy their product. Winning is fun and makes u feel good and losing is not fun and makes you feel bad or sad but it's like a baby cries when it can't have a cookie when it wants one. I want to cheer for a good team and you suck now and I want you to look stupid because you made me feel bad . Winning and cheering for a good team is the cookie and now you're not getting it. It's childish and self centered. Let it go. You have no control.

That is all. I realize no one likes to be lectured but it's more a philosophy of how to feel more serene . I'm not perfect
I have frailties but if they truly are your favorite team you'll be back when they get good again or not . I will not be debating this because theres nothing to debate. You either take good advice or you keep spitting into the wind and getting it blown right back in your face. Be kind,  rewind your soul. We need to think more , take a few deep breaths and realize our feelings are not the center of the universe.

[wegner]

44 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

. You have a favorite team. You want it to win and you want other teams to lose when they play your team. I think there's a difference between dislike and hate.  I don't see the point of hate. It's a popular word that's lost it's true meaning. Hate is an ugly foul thing.

 

Hate actually comes from the Old English word hata, which meant something like "enemy" or "opponent".

Uh Oh, hold on. Sorry about that Cali, I was having an etymology disagreement with someone on WordTalk and mixed up the conversations. Double header tomorrow, huh?

[greg775]

I'll tell u one thing. If Sox somehow lose two tomorrow against all law of averages somebody's got to be fired. Or several players have to be demoted. Just swap five guys on the current roster for five minor leaguers for a week. There's no possible way Chicago can start the year 0-7 vs. KC. Something will have to be done tomorrow if there are dual losses. 

Or maybe they'll tell us Pham is coming soon. Just relax and wait for Pham-ball.

[Rey21]

The more negative attention on Jerry, the better, keep losing ugly baby! 

[Milkman delivers]

7 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Look if u wish to have a philosophical or moral based debate on cheering for your favorite team find another taker.

Everyone who is on the playing field accepts there are winners and losers and those who have more talent win more often.

I cannot control what the franchise does so I am not angry because I can't control that situation . Just because it's my favorite team and they are terrible is no reason to wish for it's destruction. They aren't doing anything to us. They are just a poorly run business. It's spite for no real reason. It's your prerogative as a consumer not to buy their product. Winning is fun and makes u feel good and losing is not fun and makes you feel bad or sad but it's like a baby cries when it can't have a cookie when it wants one. I want to cheer for a good team and you suck now and I want you to look stupid because you made me feel bad . Winning and cheering for a good team is the cookie and now you're not getting it. It's childish and self centered. Let it go. You have no control.

That is all. I realize no one likes to be lectured but it's more a philosophy of how to feel more serene . I'm not perfect
I have frailties but if they truly are your favorite team you'll be back when they get good again or not . I will not be debating this because theres nothing to debate. You either take good advice or you keep spitting into the wind and getting it blown right back in your face. Be kind,  rewind your soul. We need to think more , take a few deep breaths and realize our feelings are not the center of the universe.

You can’t tell you’re from California at all ?

But seriously, how could finding some enjoyment in the inevitable losing be bad?

[wegner]

8 hours ago, greg775 said:

I'll tell u one thing. If Sox somehow lose two tomorrow against all law of averages somebody's got to be fired. Or several players have to be demoted. Just swap five guys on the current roster for five minor leaguers for a week. There's no possible way Chicago can start the year 0-7 vs. KC. Something will have to be done tomorrow if there are dual losses. 

Or maybe they'll tell us Pham is coming soon. Just relax and wait for Pham-ball.

Is Pham-Ball what Schriffen used to do the play by play for on ESPN4?

[Quin]

20 minutes ago, wegner said:

Is Pham-Ball what Schriffen used to do the play by play for on ESPN4?

COME ON AND PHAM
NO ONE'S IN THE STANDS

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, Milkman delivers said:

You can’t tell you’re from California at all ?

But seriously, how could finding some enjoyment in the inevitable losing be bad?

Haha good one. I was born and raised in Chicago on the SW side I was raised Catholic and went to a Catholic Seminary HS.

I just can't forget that spirituality is still a part of every day life.

Im a huge Sox fan .I played a lot of sports. Follow the Bears, Bulls, Hawks. Love baseball more than the other sports but still thanks to the internet and I tune into the CHGO shows that cover the Sox. I like Vinnie Duber and instead of bringing talk of darkening my soul into the conversation perhaps I can liken how I feel to a sports journalist.

Duber is a Sox fan and a journalist who has media credentials. He has to cover the team and try to remain objective. He can't be overly critical of the Sox, especially Reinsdorf, if he wants to keep getting into games for free as a member of the media. As far as I can tell there isn't a single member of the media wishing for the downfall of the franchise because that is an emotional response not an objective one. White Sox fans have been through this in the past. We are not the 1st generation of fans to see the Sox suck. We are also not the only fans to follow a franchise that cannot compete due to ownership claiming they can't afford it.

Wishing for the White Sox or Reinsdorf to be embarrassed or publicly humiliated accomplishes nothing unless you want to have the Chicago White Sox become a memory like the Chicago Cardinals in football.

Like a media member I chhose to remain objective and keep my emotions out of it.

If anyone here thinks they know me from my past 20 years posting here it's that I try really hard not to view things as a fan even though I am one. Just because Vaughn was a very high draft pick I was not hurt when he became less than was expected from him. But wow in the beginning when the fans were putting all their hopes of glory into Vaughn being an elite bat you could not look at him objectively and voice your opinion  without scathing responses from Sox fans on here .Most of the responses are based on the perceived notion that I know nothing because the majority opinion was  he's the greatest thing ever.

When you're a fan of a terrible sports team for 50 years you just realize you can't let your fandom ruin your day or even ruin your mood while you're watching the game especially if you're the kind of fan yelling at the TV and having temper tantrums because you have money on the game especially if that behavior is around your children .What are you teaching them exactly by behaving in that way ?

There are a lot of casual fans especially women who rarely post on fan forums like this. As far as I know we have one and she sometimes expresses her doubts about Colson Montgomery and gets a fair amount of grief for it. Forums like these are not for the faint of heart or for the casual fans or who don't put their heart and SOUL into all things White Sox. If you take your emotions out of the equation it becomes much easier .

I'm very critical of Reinsdorf every chance I get. From the beginning of the rebuild  I always felt it had very little chance of resulting in a championship or multiple championships or even an extended period of high level of competitiveness. Anyone who has followed how Reinsdorf has operated  as Chairman of the Board should have tempered their expectations of "sustained success". Now it's like a lightbulb has suddenly been turned on for some fans but still I remind them that it's not Getz or Grifol or Hahn or player development that has led to the current state of affairs , it's Reinsdorf, just as it was Charles Comiskey or Bill Veeck or other owners who either couldn't afford or claimed not to have the resources to field a competitive team .  But they are still butt hurt about it. You promised me sustained success you lied to me.I hate you.

This year is the 30th anniversary of the 1994 White Sox a team that could've won the World Series. Who was the biggest obstacle in baseball for that not happening ? Jerry Reinsdorf whose anti-labor stances led directly to the strike that cancelled the 1994 World Series.

Now baseball has made a ridiculous anti tanking rule to limit having bad teams get high draft choices . Why not just have a draft lottery like basketball and hockey ? Bad teams still should have a shot at the best draft picks. Drafting and developing well is the only way poor teams can actually compete. The Orioles are where they are now because of it. Houston's had a nice run. Arizona has made it work for them. Tampa Bay has also although it hasn't resulted in any Championships. Arizona came close last year after drafting well. Reinsdorf certainly has more resources than TB but his problem is he has no interest in building an infrastructure of excellence through drafting and development. He never has.

I'm semi sure Reinsdorf runs the Sox in a way he thinks is best to keep them in Chicago and prevent them from leaving the city like his beloved Brooklyn Dodgers did . But maybe it's just about lining the pockets of himself and his heirs and the investors .You'd think somewhere in his 45 years as an owner he would have realized his approach was not conducive to sustained success but they won in 2005 so maybe he became convinced his way was best. The Brooklyn Dodgers were also a 2nd rate team in a time when NY had the Yankees and the NY Giants and 2 of those team moved to California. Perhaps it's inevitable that the Chicago White Sox become a memory .

Edited April 17 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Big Hurtin]

11 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

The OP asked is it wrong. From a morality point of view I don't thin it's right that's for sure. We should never wish bad things to happen to one another. It darkens the soul.

 

[Snopek]

29 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

As far as I can tell there isn't a single member of the media wishing for the downfall of the franchise because that is an emotional response not an objective one.

Like a media member I chhose to remain objective and keep my emotions out of it.

Appreciate the thoughtful post, but I'm hung up on something. Are you saying you remain objective and keep emotions out of both the lows AND the highs of the franchise? Or that you can flip a switch to block out the lows but still experience the highs? 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

19 minutes ago, Snopek said:

Appreciate the thoughtful post, but I'm hung up on something. Are you saying you remain objective and keep emotions out of both the lows AND the highs of the franchise? Or that you can flip a switch to block out the lows but still experience the highs? 

It's more the lows I block out which are plentiful because I don't want to feel bad or be in a bad mood because my favorite team in sports is doing poorly. We all want to feel happier when our team is playing well but even then I tell myself that a championship is a rarity . So yes I do it on both sides but more to limit the lows.

I remember I wrote a post after the 2005 World Series win that was about my relatives and past generations who were still alive that they finally got a chance to experience that high that comes with winning a championship. No doubt that feeling is exhilarating but as I said I try not to be an overly emotional fan . I like cookies as much as anyone but I no longer cry when I can't have one .I just try to look for the more positive outcomes or look for the positives in prospects but I temper those expectations also knowing it's a game of adjustments and has a steep learning curve.

I always hold out hope that something eventually is discovered by a player like Sheets to make him a better hitter. I don't think you will find too many posts from me saying a young player is what he is like we see with Sheets and saw with Burger .

I even supported the trade of Steele Walker for Nomar Mazara who was only 24 at the time and had some promise with early success in his career. I know it's much easier to put your faith in a minor leaguer than to look at someone like Mazara who was only 24 at the time but his progress stalled out at an early age in MLB. Chances are when you say a player is who he is you will be right but there are always exceptions to expected outcomes. I choose to keep hope alive rather than "burn it all down"  .

Despite my initial reservations about Vaughn having any potential as an outfielder because of his lack of speed. I was still hoping for him to break out at a hitter last off season. I still hoped that Eloy and Robert would stay healthy and fulfill their promise. But on the other hand Id say Robert was not too valuable to trade because no team could afford to trade as many prospects as it would take to acquire him which was a popular opinion in his lone season of excellence last year here on Soxtalk. I wanted to temper those type of expectations knowing that he hasn't been able to stay healthy.

Same thing for those thinking Cease was worth more than than they got for him . There was no way JR was going to risk him getting hurt going into the season. If  I could figure that out so could other GMs and it took a maverick GM to finally make the Sox an offer that pleased JR enough to trade him just prior to opening the season. Most GMs saw him more for his 2023 season than his 2022 season or viewed him in the same way as they viewed Blake Snell.

I like to hope for the best but I don't fool myself into thinking things are better than they really are. I know JRs history and it's never come close to sustained success that resulted in any period of time of more than 2 playoff appearances in any 10 year period.

[caulfield12]

44 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It's more the lows I block out which are plentiful because I don't want to feel bad or be in a bad mood because my favorite team in sports is doing poorly. We all want to feel happier when our team is playing well but even then I tell myself that a championship is a rarity . So yes I do it on both sides but more to limit the lows.

I remember I wrote a post after the 2005 World Series win that was about my relatives and past generations who were still alive that they finally got a chance to experience that high that comes with winning a championship. No doubt that feeling is exhilarating but as I said I try not to be an overly emotional fan . I like cookies as much as anyone but I no longer cry when I can't have one .I just try to look for the more positive outcomes or look for the positives in prospects but I temper those expectations also knowing it's a game of adjustments and has a steep learning curve.

I always hold out hope that something eventually is discovered by a player like Sheets to make him a better hitter. I don't think you will find too many posts from me saying a young player is what he is like we see with Sheets and saw with Burger .

I even supported the trade of Steele Walker for Nomar Mazara who was only 24 at the time and had some promise with early success in his career. I know it's much easier to put your faith in a minor leaguer than to look at someone like Mazara who was only 24 at the time but his progress stalled out at an early age in MLB. Chances are when you say a player is who he is you will be right but there are always exceptions to expected outcomes. I choose to keep hope alive rather than "burn it all down"  .

Despite my initial reservations about Vaughn having any potential as an outfielder because of his lack of speed. I was still hoping for him to break out at a hitter last off season. I still hoped that Eloy and Robert would stay healthy and fulfill their promise. But on the other hand Id say Robert was not too valuable to trade because no team could afford to trade as many prospects as it would take to acquire him which was a popular opinion in his lone season of excellence last year here on Soxtalk. I wanted to temper those type of expectations knowing that he hasn't been able to stay healthy.

Same thing for those thinking Cease was worth more than than they got for him . There was no way JR was going to risk him getting hurt going into the season. If  I could figure that out so could other GMs and it took a maverick GM to finally make the Sox an offer that pleased JR enough to trade him just prior to opening the season. Most GMs saw him more for his 2023 season than his 2022 season or viewed him in the same way as they viewed Blake Snell.

I like to hope for the best but I don't fool myself into thinking things are better than they really are. I know JRs history and it's never come close to sustained success that resulted in any period of time of more than 2 playoff appearances in any 10 year period.

2000/05/08.

That's it.

[southsider2k5]