"It's going to take time"

[Rusty]

On 4/19/2024 at 10:41 AM, Kyyle23 said:

Buddy hate to be the bearer of bad news but you better understand that towel was thrown in last August 

The towel was thrown in 1981…

[caulfield12]

Free agents still available. Brandon Belt, Jonathan Schoop (Mexico), Evan Longoria, Wil Myers, Tyler Naquin, Tommy La Stella, Alex Dickerson (Japan), Billy Hamilton (Mexico), Jackie Bradley, Jr (Long Island Ducks). Probably won't help get wins but could sell an extra 20 tickets or so.???

Edited April 22 by caulfield12

[Quin]

The fact that this is a "Fearless, Aggressive, Selfless and Technically sound" roster assembled by Getz kind of explains his track record developing prospects.

Also, on yesterday's CHGO, Vinnie Duber laid into it about runners stealing all day on them, say that it's clearly a White Sox problem. You have a new pitching staff (sans Kopech), new catchers (and Korey Lee has a good arm), yet they can't throw anyone out.

[LittleHurtCG]

On 4/20/2024 at 12:30 AM, Green Line said:

NO MORE REBUILDS.  They don’t work here.

Sox fans need to accept this.  There are two options going forward for this franchise

1. “Rebuild” and continue acquiring prospects who bust and patiently waiting for that dynasty that will never come.  You all die at the end with nothing.

2.  Do what they did from 1990-2014 and continue signing washed up boppers to supplement a meager farm and praying that something accidentally clicks. (And hope for a Frank Thomas…)

With option 2 we probably get nothing, but once every 10 years we might get a random playoff run and 2-3 years of 2nd place collapses.

With option 1 we get corpse ball and record breaking futility.

There a few of us around here who have been saying this for quite some time. The only chance this team has for any kind of success as long as JR is the owner is the catch lighting in a bottle approach. As you mention option 1 leaves us with one of the worst baseball rosters ever assembled at a time where they aren't even eligible to get the #1 pick in 2025. 

On 4/20/2024 at 12:33 AM, Green Line said:

It was a massive mistake.

Tanking doesn’t work 99% of the time.

Rick Hahn and company started the Sox tank job right after the Astros and Cubs turned into behemoths via the tank job route. Problem was those front offices were extraordinary and willing to put in the work. The Sox front office was the opposite. 

On 4/20/2024 at 8:29 AM, southsider2k5 said:

Lol.  I hate to break it to you, but we already have nothing.  Even free agency wasn't going to save this mess.  We are in a rebuild whether we want to be or not because there is no talent on this roster.

The Sox didn't need to trade away Dylan Cease, Jake Burger, or Aaron Bummer. Wouldn't have made much of a difference most likely, but trading away those guys pretty much signaled the start of another tank job era on the South Side. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, LittleHurtCG said:

The Sox didn't need to trade away Dylan Cease, Jake Burger, or Aaron Bummer. Wouldn't have made much of a difference most likely, but trading away those guys pretty much signaled the start of another tank job era on the South Side. 

No, the tank era started when every single player regressed from 2021-22, and turned the major league roster into a dumpster fire.  Being ignorant of the teams position and failing to get a return for expiring assets would have only compounded the problem that this team was already facing.  It is sunk cost fallacy.  The failure already occurred.  It's what is done afterwards that can cost the team years and prospect capital.

[Tony]

On 4/20/2024 at 12:33 AM, Green Line said:

It was a massive mistake.

Tanking doesn’t work 99% of the time.

With the White Sox, or in baseball? Because there have been numerous successful "rebuilds" done by teams over the last two decades. 

[LittleHurtCG]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

No, the tank era started when every single player regressed from 2021-22, and turned the major league roster into a dumpster fire.  Being ignorant of the teams position and failing to get a return for expiring assets would have only compounded the problem that this team was already facing.  It is sunk cost fallacy.  The failure already occurred.  It's what is done afterwards that can cost the team years and prospect capital.

I think the point you are missing is that some of us don't really get a crap about prospect capital at this point. We already played that game before and struck out badly. Chris Sale or Dylan Cease pitching every 5 days was at least a reason to turn on the television and watch a game. There is really no reason to turn on the game right now and watch this hot pile of garbage. 

Another tank job will not work! 

[southsider2k5]

26 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

I think the point you are missing is that some of us don't really get a crap about prospect capital at this point. We already played that game before and struck out badly. Chris Sale or Dylan Cease pitching every 5 days was at least a reason to turn on the television and watch a game. There is really no reason to turn on the game right now and watch this hot pile of garbage. 

Another tank job will not work! 

Oh I got your point, I just don't think you understand that winning 63 games this year instead of 55 and then losing all of those guys anyways makes a damned bit of sense when a team is as bereft of talent as the White Sox are right now.

[JoeC]

1 hour ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Another tank job will not work! 

...so what will work?

[Quin]

4 minutes ago, JoeC said:

...so what will work?

Spending money.

We've beat the drum ad nauseum, but JR could have opened up the pocketbook for Harper or Machado, or if we want to get real fucking crazy, both.

Insert both those guys into that 2020 lineup ad you've got RF + 2B (Moncada stays at 2B) solved for the first time in forever. They don't draft Madrigal for need.

But nooooo, can't spend money. So guess the only other option is rebuild. Which I know you that you know Joe, but I need to spell out for people who don't understand it.

[Dick Allen]

20 minutes ago, JoeC said:

...so what will work?

The only thing that will work, will be new ownership. 

[Lip Man 1]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The only thing that will work, will be new ownership. 

Exactly correct. 

[southsider2k5]

14 minutes ago, Quin said:

Spending money.

We've beat the drum ad nauseum, but JR could have opened up the pocketbook for Harper or Machado, or if we want to get real fucking crazy, both.

Insert both those guys into that 2020 lineup ad you've got RF + 2B (Moncada stays at 2B) solved for the first time in forever. They don't draft Madrigal for need.

But nooooo, can't spend money. So guess the only other option is rebuild. Which I know you that you know Joe, but I need to spell out for people who don't understand it.

Even if they spent Mets money this year, they weren't getting out of this mess. 

[GreatScott82]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

No, the tank era started when every single player regressed from 2021-22, and turned the major league roster into a dumpster fire.  Being ignorant of the teams position and failing to get a return for expiring assets would have only compounded the problem that this team was already facing.  It is sunk cost fallacy.  The failure already occurred.  It's what is done afterwards that can cost the team years and prospect capital.

Well said. Gordon Beckham mentioned on the CWS talk podcast awhile back that Getz indirectly ackowledged that Hahn/KW held onto their 'core' players too long. Getz told Beckham that he wants to be able to maximize on a players return values earlier rather than waiting. The tricky part is all of these damn injuries for these broken/expensive players. It's hard to unload bad contracts to guys made of glass. The key to fixing this thing is from the bottom up. The farm system needs to acquire multiple blue chippers and perhaps finally learn how to scout and develop their own homegrown talent.  Something that the Sox just never do. 

Another immediate fix would be for Jerry to sell, but since he would be too bored in his final years, Sox fans will be hanging out in pergatory until his final days arrive.

Edited April 22 by GreatScott82

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, GreatScott82 said:

Well said. Gordon Beckham mentioned on the CWS talk podcast awhile back that Getz indirectly ackowledged that Hahn/KW held onto their 'core' players too long. Getz told Beckham that he wants to be able to maximize on a players return values earlier rather than waiting. The tricky part is all of these damn injuries for these broken/expensive players. It's hard to unload bad contracts to guys made of glass. The key to fixing this thing is from the bottom up. The farm system needs to acquire multiple blue chippers and perhaps finally learn how to scout and develop their own homegrown talent.  Something that the Sox just never do. 

Another immediate fix would be for Jerry to sell, but since he would be too bored in his final years, Sox fans will be hanging out in pergatory until his final days arrive.

If the Getz era is going to be different than the Hahn era, it has to start in the farm system.  Barring the tank trades, the man was not able to generate even replacement level players on a regular basis, let alone decent starters to fill empty positions.  This has to start with having players forcing their way on to the major league roster on a regular basis.  You can work around not spending (like we have seen in Tampa and more recently Baltimore, and every once in a while in "Oakland"), but you can't work around not investing in the system.

[KipWellsFan]

2 hours ago, Quin said:

The fact that this is a "Fearless, Aggressive, Selfless and Technically sound" roster assembled by Getz kind of explains his track record developing prospects.

Also, on yesterday's CHGO, Vinnie Duber laid into it about runners stealing all day on them, say that it's clearly a White Sox problem. You have a new pitching staff (sans Kopech), new catchers (and Korey Lee has a good arm), yet they can't throw anyone out.

FYI - It looks like Korey Lee is throwing runners out at the league average. Around 23% of the time. But Maldonado has only thrown out 1 runner all year to a very poor caught stealing rate.

Another great reason to keep Korey in the line-up as much as possible.

[Quin]

12 minutes ago, KipWellsFan said:

FYI - It looks like Korey Lee is throwing runners out at the league average. Around 23% of the time. But Maldonado has only thrown out 1 runner all year to a very poor caught stealing rate.

Another great reason to keep Korey in the line-up as much as possible.

Ok, yeah. Vinnie said Lee had 1 runner thrown out in 10 attempts, but it's 3.

Maldonado is a robust 1-for-13.

[LittleHurtCG]

1 hour ago, JoeC said:

...so what will work?

Likely nothing as long as JR is the owner and Chris Getz the General Manager. Hopefully this offeason the team attempts to build around Robert and Crochet by signing some veteran free agents who aren't totally washed up. They should also try to identify which of their top prospects are really just fools gold and trade them for some players who can make an immediate impact. 

59 minutes ago, GreatScott82 said:

Well said. Gordon Beckham mentioned on the CWS talk podcast awhile back that Getz indirectly ackowledged that Hahn/KW held onto their 'core' players too long. Getz told Beckham that he wants to be able to maximize on a players return values earlier rather than waiting. The tricky part is all of these damn injuries for these broken/expensive players. It's hard to unload bad contracts to guys made of glass. The key to fixing this thing is from the bottom up. The farm system needs to acquire multiple blue chippers and perhaps finally learn how to scout and develop their own homegrown talent.  Something that the Sox just never do. 

Another immediate fix would be for Jerry to sell, but since he would be too bored in his final years, Sox fans will be hanging out in pergatory until his final days arrive.

Would you include Louis Robert in the category of "core" players that were held onto too long? 

Acquiring multiple blue chippers is a lot easier said than done.  Most Sox fans I know have very little interest in sitting through another 4-5 tank job of unwatchable baseball. 

[southsider2k5]

Just now, LittleHurtCG said:

Likely nothing as long as JR is the owner and Chris Getz the General Manager. Hopefully this offeason the team attempts to build around Robert and Crochet by signing some veteran free agents who aren't totally washed up. They should also try to identify which of their top prospects are really just fools gold and trade them for some players who can make an immediate impact. 

Would you include Louis Robert in the category of "core" players that were held onto too long? 

Acquiring multiple blue chippers is a lot easier said than done.  Most Sox fans I know have very little interest in sitting through another 4-5 tank job of unwatchable baseball. 

Whether Cease, Burger, and/or Aaron Bummer was here, we are going to go through years of bad baseball.  Period.  End of story.  Even in that list of 3 players, Dylan Cease is the only one with any REAL value to a franchise.  I won't pretend that Jake Burger and Aaron Bummer are some sort of difference makers.  If you get value to specialty relievers and DH's you trade them everytime when you have a 100 loss team if someone is willing to give you some value for them.

[Quin]

5 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Likely nothing as long as JR is the owner and Chris Getz the General Manager. Hopefully this offeason the team attempts to build around Robert and Crochet by signing some veteran free agents who aren't totally washed up. They should also try to identify which of their top prospects are really just fools gold and trade them for some players who can make an immediate impact. 

Would you include Louis Robert in the category of "core" players that were held onto too long? 

Acquiring multiple blue chippers is a lot easier said than done.  Most Sox fans I know have very little interest in sitting through another 4-5 tank job of unwatchable baseball. 

If Luis Robert is held on too long, it means Getz has failed, because Robert is 26-years-old.

If Getz can get the team back into the playoff picture in 2 years - that's supposed to be Robert's prime. But the flipside is that we have a shitshow medical staff and a dumpster fire organization, so Robert can get hurt by just existing.

[JoeC]

11 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Most Sox fans I know have very little interest in sitting through another 4-5 tank job of unwatchable baseball. 

A lot of us know that 4-5 years of unwatchable baseball are in our future, regardless of intent by the front office, unless JR dies or sells.

[LittleHurtCG]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Whether Cease, Burger, and/or Aaron Bummer was here, we are going to go through years of bad baseball.  Period.  End of story.  Even in that list of 3 players, Dylan Cease is the only one with any REAL value to a franchise.  I won't pretend that Jake Burger and Aaron Bummer are some sort of difference makers.  If you get value to specialty relievers and DH's you trade them everytime when you have a 100 loss team if someone is willing to give you some value for them.

This isn't just bad baseball though. This is historically bad baseball. it is absolutley unwatchable.

At least with Cease or Sale you could tune in every 5 days. Or with Burger there was always a chance for a Burger bomb and the dude appeared to actually play with some hustle. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, LittleHurtCG said:

This isn't just bad baseball though. This is historically bad baseball. it is absolutley unwatchable.

At least with Cease or Sale you could tune in every 5 days. Or with Burger there was always a chance for a Burger bomb and the dude appeared to actually play with some hustle. 

That is a terrible way to run a franchise.  With the gap between good and bad as historic levels, the need to accumulate a lot of talent all at once is greater than ever before.  Losing players for nothing when you have one of the lowest amounts of talent in your franchise from top to bottom is borderline negligence.

[southsider2k5]

10 minutes ago, Quin said:

If Luis Robert is held on too long, it means Getz has failed, because Robert is 26-years-old.

If Getz can get the team back into the playoff picture in 2 years - that's supposed to be Robert's prime. But the flipside is that we have a shitshow medical staff and a dumpster fire organization, so Robert can get hurt by just existing.

I don't see a realistic scenario where we can get enough talent to the majors in 4 years to help Luis Robert be on a playoff team unless we trade Luis Robert to a playoff team soon and clean up.

[T R U]

47 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I don't see a realistic scenario where we can get enough talent to the majors in 4 years to help Luis Robert be on a playoff team unless we trade Luis Robert to a playoff team soon and clean up.

This is the sad reality.

Unless they spend big money on actual quality free agents and we hit on a lot of these prospects that are getting close, there is no scenario where this team is in a competitive window while Luis Robert is still under contract.

Even if the unlikely happens and this team is competitive again in 2026, Luis Robert will almost surely be a big part of that reason and he will then be knocking on the FA door of a massive contract that we certainly wont be paying.

My ideal scenario is he comes back healthy this season, finishes strong, and then is traded in the off-season for the best package you can get. Worst case, by the deadline next season.