Shut Out Counter

[WestEddy]

8 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

We have very different definitions of “adequate”.  Pham is replacement level (.735 OPS) after his initial hot streak.  Julks has a .688 OPS after his initial hot streak.  Grossman was awful for the Sox (.597 OPS) so it’s nice that he brought back a reliever.  Fletcher was expected to be the RF starter against righties and was awful (.480 OPS).  Fletcher was expected to be ready based on his MLB sample size last year but now he wasn’t ready?  Okay…

1) It's a rebuild year. The team isn't expected to be competitive. 
2) Pham provided an offensive spark, and is playing out of position. In the event you disagree, see #1.
3) Julks also provided an offensive spark upon arriving, and will be the weak half of a platoon. OPS of .806 vs. LHP.
4) Fletcher started to hit in AAA, and is now injured. He's the very guy everyone has been yelling to give playing time to.

Again, read #1. They're still giving playing time to the players they want to showcase for trade. There will certainly be space for Fletcher, Julks, Colas and DeLoach to get PAs once Pham, Sheets, and DeJong are dealt. 

It's a rebuild year. The team isn't expected to be competitive. 

[WhiteSox2023]

4 minutes ago, T R U said:

Defensively, no.

But Nicky Lopez is still a 0.0 bWAR player who wont be here next season so yeah, there is still no answer in sight for the future of the position on this team.

Yep, that’s what I was referring to.  His offense is so feeble it brings his overall WAR down to a big zippo.  At a low price of $4.3 million as well!

Edited June 26 by WhiteSox2023

[WhiteSox2023]

I wish I was a GM.  I would just claim that every season is a rebuilding year so no one could ever judge me on my offseason, performance, or results.

[WestEddy]

13 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

2B isn’t still a black hole?

Lopez plays good defense, but has no power. He won't be the second baseman going forward, but in a rebuilding year where we're not expected to be competitive, he's fine. 

As far as the future, you have Ramos, Baldwin and Gonzalez in the pipeline. You're going to have a solid, regular 2B at some point in the next year. 

[T R U]

Just now, WhiteSox2023 said:

I wish I was a GM.  I would just claim that every season is a rebuilding year so no one could ever judge me on my offseason, performance, or results.

The problem is they never claimed it was a rebuilding year, matter of factly they acted more like they were trying to contend in the central until the wheels exploded off and the cart plummeted to a fiery death almost instantly into the trip.

[WestEddy]

8 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

When the goalpost moving is as circular as the arguments...

How so?

[southsider2k5]

32 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

You are what your record says you are. Period. This is pro sports. Getz quite loudly announced a plan for the team to immediately become solid defensively and with enough otherwise to field a competitive squad the fans could appreciate.

And now where are we?

Literally last in baseball defensively.  Pretty sure that isn't Eloy's fault.

[southsider2k5]

24 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

A group of pioneers are on the Oregon Trail heading west.  The group is led by Kenneth and Richard who recruited the pioneers and obtained all the wagons, oxen, and supplies.  

The front left wheel keep breaking on the large wagon every month.  There is an ox that seems to pull its muscles seemingly every time you cross into a new state.  One of your best hunters who spent too much time at the Saloons in Northwest Indiana keeps getting dysentery.    

Gerald, the patriarch of the group gets embarrassed that the group is taking longer than it should to travel the trail.  He tells Kenneth and Richard they are no longer allowed to lead everyone.  He appoints Christopher to take their place when they reach Idaho.  

They stop at a little town outside Boise.  Christopher would love to get rid of that faulty wagon wheel and get a new one, buy a brand new healthy ox, and find a hunter who is more dependable.  Gerald tells him he doesn't have enough money left. 

They only have enough to get a used spare wagon wheel, a mule in case the strong ox gets hurt again, and give hunting lessons to a young kid in the travel party.  

It is less than ideal, but they only have to make it one more state before they get to their destination and can rid themselves of all the crappy stuff Kenneth and Richard purchased.  Once they get to Oregon, they will be free to start anew.

Immediately after leaving town, the ox pulls his hamstring, the hunter passes out due to illness, and the wagon wheel cracks in half.  They put the reins on the mule, hand the rifle to the young hunter-in-training, and replace the wagon wheel with the makeshift spare.

It is taking the group longer than most anyone has ever took to travel from Idaho to Oregon.  

Three guys in the back of the travel party keep blaming Christopher and saying "he should have known" about the wheel, hunter, and injury prone ox.

Been there, done that.

[WestEddy]

5 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Right after the big three lasted 17 games into the season.  ?

I'm not sure what or who that was a dunk on. 

[WestEddy]

6 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Yep, that’s what I was referring to.  His offense is so feeble it brings his overall WAR down to a big zippo.  At a low price of $4.3 million as well!

$4.3m is a low price. It's time to stop pretending this is big money when 1 WAR is worth about $9m.

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, T R U said:

The problem is they never claimed it was a rebuilding year, matter of factly they acted more like they were trying to contend in the central until the wheels exploded off and the cart plummeted to a fiery death almost instantly into the trip.

Not mention if we are going to try to act like the Vaughn and Benny play is such a big hit to this squad, you have to also look at the fact Garrett Crochet pitching like Cy Young and Fedde pitching like a #2 was even more unexpected to the upside.  If we are going to talk about surprises with that team, we have had one of the best 1/2 punches in baseball and still are historically bad.  I promise you no one planned for that either.

[WestEddy]

6 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I wish I was a GM.  I would just claim that every season is a rebuilding year so no one could ever judge me on my offseason, performance, or results.

Nobody on this board, outside of maybe Poppy, thought this season wasn't a rebuild year. 

Breaking camp, pretty much everyone thought we had 2 assets to sell: Cease and Robert. Now, lo and behold, we seem to have 2 more valuable assets in Fedde and Crochet. We're also talking about Brebbia, DeJong, Pham, Flexen and Kopech. In a rebuild, I choose to judge the GM based on how he can raise value on assets, and get that value back in trade. 

I'm happy with the Cease trade, and have no reason to believe I won't be happy with returns for Fedde, Crochet and Robert. 

[WestEddy]

8 minutes ago, T R U said:

The problem is they never claimed it was a rebuilding year, matter of factly they acted more like they were trying to contend in the central until the wheels exploded off and the cart plummeted to a fiery death almost instantly into the trip.

No, they shouldn't have bullshitted their way through that press conference. However, in biting the bullet, not trying to patch holes with $15m players, I think they might just be shortening the timeline of the rebuild. Well, they at least cut out the 2 year descent into total suckage. 

[WhiteSox2023]

28 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

1) It's a rebuild year. The team isn't expected to be competitive. 
2) Pham provided an offensive spark, and is playing out of position. In the event you disagree, see #1.
3) Julks also provided an offensive spark upon arriving, and will be the weak half of a platoon. OPS of .806 vs. LHP.
4) Fletcher started to hit in AAA, and is now injured. He's the very guy everyone has been yelling to give playing time to.

Again, read #1. They're still giving playing time to the players they want to showcase for trade. There will certainly be space for Fletcher, Julks, Colas and DeLoach to get PAs once Pham, Sheets, and DeJong are dealt. 

It's a rebuild year. The team isn't expected to be competitive. 

Fun with stats.

1)  See my previous post.  A GM’s job must be easy.  Just say you are in a rebuilding year and no one can judge you on your results!

2)  Pham has played all three outfield positions in his career.  If he’s playing out of position, oh well.  That’s why he’s still getting paid to play.  Meanwhile, his offensive spark is long OVA.

3)  33 at bats versus lefties for Julks.  Huge sample size!  Except his poor performance in 60 at bats versus righties hurt the team as much as those whopping 33 good at bats against lefties.

4)  Fletcher had his shot in the beginning of the season and blew it.  You were the one using his small sample size of 93 at bats for the Diamondbacks last year as evidence he was at least a capable starting RF.  Since that didn’t work out, now you are hyping that he started to hit at AAA Charlotte, but unfortunately got injured?  If Charlotte stats meant anything, Mark Payton would be our starting RF.

Edited June 26 by WhiteSox2023

[WhiteSox2023]

19 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Nobody on this board, outside of maybe Poppy, thought this season wasn't a rebuild year. 

Breaking camp, pretty much everyone thought we had 2 assets to sell: Cease and Robert. Now, lo and behold, we seem to have 2 more valuable assets in Fedde and Crochet. We're also talking about Brebbia, DeJong, Pham, Flexen and Kopech. In a rebuild, I choose to judge the GM based on how he can raise value on assets, and get that value back in trade. 

I'm happy with the Cease trade, and have no reason to believe I won't be happy with returns for Fedde, Crochet and Robert. 

Getz was promoted to GM at the end of last season.  Reinsdorf said that he was given the job because he was already familiar with the team and farm system and it wouldn’t take him a full season to assess the team.  Just as the results/return on his trades are, the results of last offseason and this season are also a part of Getz’s resume whether you want to admit it or not.

Edited June 26 by WhiteSox2023

[pcq]

2 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

It appeared in the offseason that Getz’s plan was to improve the leadership and defense to help the young pitching prospects excel once they were ready.  I remember posters at the time saying it could be a decent idea but that Getz was completely neglecting offense for defense and leadership.  Well, his plan failed on both sides of the ball.  Not only is the defense atrocious, Getz’s plan led to one of the worst offenses of the non-deadball era, just like you already stated.  So sure, Getz was left with a bad team, but he was also left with some pitching prospects in the minors that Hahn/Kenny acquired at the trade deadline.  And Getz’s own offseason plan was an unmitigated disaster.

Getz was a terrible player and is a terrible GM. You need a guy who is cutting edge in analytics and player development. He's just a placeholder minding over a complete disaster. 

[T R U]

4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

$4.3m is a low price. It's time to stop pretending this is big money when 1 WAR is worth about $9m.

They just don't spend the money they do have wisely.

Were paying approx. $4.75 million to Maldonado and Stassi. One is arguably the worst player in baseball and the other is not going to play at all. Should have just found out what you had in Korey Lee and signed some defensive only guy off the scrap heap.

Ill just assume that we HAD to take Nicky Lopez in that Atlanta deal, otherwise there's another $4.3 million wasted. The DeJong signing is one that they got right. Dirt cheap, and we may get an asset out of it.

Tommy Pham is in the same boat, dirt cheap again and we may get an asset out of him.

Clevinger and Flexen, another $4.75 million wasted. Nobody is interested in Clevinger and Flexen is awful. They could have thrown AAA guys out there if they just wanted a guy to eat innings to a tune of 5-6 ERA.

And the bullpen, jesus. Brebbia $4 million. Soroka $3 million (Again, ill assume we had to take him in the deal with Atlanta)

Just throwing away money on useless players. I would rather they just invest that into scouting and development instead of one season of worthless baseball.

[WhiteSox2023]

14 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

$4.3m is a low price. It's time to stop pretending this is big money when 1 WAR is worth about $9m.

Point is, it was wasted money.  0 WAR isn’t 1 WAR and Lopez is a huge part of this historically bad offense.

[Chimpton]

23 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

1) It's a rebuild year. The team isn't expected to be competitive. 
2) Pham provided an offensive spark, and is playing out of position. In the event you disagree, see #1.
3) Julks also provided an offensive spark upon arriving, and will be the weak half of a platoon. OPS of .806 vs. LHP.
4) Fletcher started to hit in AAA, and is now injured. He's the very guy everyone has been yelling to give playing time to.

Again, read #1. They're still giving playing time to the players they want to showcase for trade. There will certainly be space for Fletcher, Julks, Colas and DeLoach to get PAs once Pham, Sheets, and DeJong are dealt. 

It's a rebuild year. The team isn't expected to be competitive. 

There is a big difference between not being competitive and a 21-60 half season.

[WhiteSox2023]

15 minutes ago, T R U said:

They just don't spend the money they do have wisely.

Were paying approx. $4.75 million to Maldonado and Stassi. One is arguably the worst player in baseball and the other is not going to play at all. Should have just found out what you had in Korey Lee and signed some defensive only guy off the scrap heap.

Ill just assume that we HAD to take Nicky Lopez in that Atlanta deal, otherwise there's another $4.3 million wasted. The DeJong signing is one that they got right. Dirt cheap, and we may get an asset out of it.

Tommy Pham is in the same boat, dirt cheap again and we may get an asset out of him.

Clevinger and Flexen, another $4.75 million wasted. Nobody is interested in Clevinger and Flexen is awful. They could have thrown AAA guys out there if they just wanted a guy to eat innings to a tune of 5-6 ERA.

And the bullpen, jesus. Brebbia $4 million. Soroka $3 million (Again, ill assume we had to take him in the deal with Atlanta)

Just throwing away money on useless players. I would rather they just invest that into scouting and development instead of one season of worthless baseball.

Getz actually wanted Little Nicky as his starting 2B and Soroka in the rotation.  He could’ve still made the same trade with the Braves and non-tendered Lopez and/or Soroka if he wanted to.

https://www.mlb.com/press-release/press-release-white-sox-agree-to-terms-on-one-year-contracts-with-seven-players-avoiding-arbitration

Minor note but Brebbia is actually earning $5.5 million for this season.

Your last sentence is the key and it would be amazing if Reinsdorf ever realized that THAT is more important than having your GM waste around $20 to $30 million on bums each and every offseason.

Edited June 26 by WhiteSox2023

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Chimpton said:

There is a big difference between not being competitive and a 21-60 half season.

One more time just for emphasis, there is a big difference between being 100 losses bad, and 120 losses bad.  One has happened once in 125 years.  91 teams have lost 100 or more games just since 1962.

https://www.mlb.com/news/best-teams-following-100-loss-season

also of note as to how far behind we would be at 100 losses...

 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

One more time just for emphasis, there is a big difference between being 100 losses bad, and 120 losses bad.  One has happened once in 125 years.  91 teams have lost 100 or more games just since 1962.

https://www.mlb.com/news/best-teams-following-100-loss-season

also of note as to how far behind we would be at 100 losses...

 

Also this... which would be 2030/2031

[WestEddy]

30 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Fun with stats.

1)  See my previous post.  A GM’s job must be easy.  Just say you are in a rebuilding year and no one can judge you on your results!

2)  Pham has played all three outfield positions in his career.  If he’s playing out of position, oh well.  That’s why he’s still getting paid to play.  Meanwhile, his offense spark is long OVA.

3)  33 at bats versus lefties for Julks.  Huge sample size!  Except his poor performance in 60 at bats versus righties hurt the team as much as those whopping 33 at bats against lefties.

4)  Fletcher had his shot in the beginning of the season and blew it.  You were the one using his small sample size of 93 at bats for the Diamondbacks last year as evidence he was at least a capable starting RF.  Since that didn’t work out, now you are hyping that he started to hit at AAA Charlotte, but unfortunately got injured?  If Charlotte stats meant anything, Mark Payton would be our starting RF.

1) If you don't think this is a rebuild, then there's really nothing to discuss. However, all activity points to this being a rebuild, so I will react accordingly. Getz' job is to raise value on the talent, and trade that talent for prospect. He seems to be doing that, and well. Please tell me how 10 more wins will be important for this team. 

2) Tommy Pham is 36. If you think he's the same player he was at 30 when he last played CF, then you should tell the guy who logs into your account to whine about older players. And in case you haven't noticed, players go on hot streaks, cool off as the league adjusts to them, they make adjustments and start hitting again. You declare Gavin Sheets' "hot streak" over every 10 days. It's silly. 

Pham is doing much better than the 33 year old Michael A. Taylor. I can't imagine how loud you'd be screaming about how Getz screwed up had he signed Taylor. I guess you could say Taylor's hot streak NEVA CAME!! I feel bad for the saps who wanted him on our team.

3) Julks has pretty much always hit lefties better than RHPs. Please tell us where a 5 WAR starting RF is so we can sign him for the major league minimum. Julks came across the waiver wire, we claimed him, and he did his job. Maybe he's a keeper. I think it will take more than your small sample size to make that determination. 

BTW, have you looked in on Canaan Smith-Njigba's AAA line lately? Hint: you don't have to start screaming that Getz messed up by not claiming him. 

4) Fletcher's 2023 was evidence that he has hit in the majors. I don't think I talked about him as more than a platoon, maybe I did. Many players get multiple chances to take over a roll. You seem eager to declare victory every time a player takes a strike, or grounds out. 

Edited June 26 by WestEddy

[WestEddy]

13 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Getz was promoted to GM at the end of last season.  Reinsdorf said that he was given the job because he was already familiar with the team and farm system and it wouldn’t take him a full season to assess the team.  This last offseason and this season is a part of Getz’s resume whether you want to admit it or not.

Sure. And maybe he cut a year or two of "kinda suck" off of the timeline by biting the bullet. 

[Chimpton]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Also this... which would be 2030/2031

And this stat is from when a tanking team would get the first draft pick the following year, that doesn't apply to the White Sox.