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[southsider2k5]

Just now, WestEddy said:

The bizarre narrative is that Chris Getz didn't realize that players could get injured. To me, that's the most bizarre strawman of all time. 3 key players were injured, 2 other key players crashed and burned. Saying Getz "should have known" is the most bizarre strawman of all time. "Knowing" doesn't change the fact that 3 guys got injured, and 2 others produced zeroes. Competitive teams often don't recover from that. The Sox weren't built to be competitive. 

Yeah, you don't get to claim that he "knew", yet use it as an excuse for failure.   Competitive teams plan around these things.  The Dodgers are loaded with half season players, but they are so deep they can work around it.  What you are describing is building your house in a uninsurable hurricane zone, but then blaming the hurricane for tearing your house down, even though you knew full well it would happen.  If your plan is building sand castles on the beach, you are planning for failure.

[southsider2k5]

22 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Sure, the Sox were never going to be in competition for the division, but Getz did have a plan to improve the defense.  He said as much himself in the offseason.

https://soxmachine.com/2024/02/chris-getz-white-sox-defense/

The big three are injury-prone and unreliable.  If all the fans know it, Getz should have known it.  RF fell apart when his expected starter acquisition in Dominic Fletcher busted hard.  Benintendi was bad last year and Vaughn has never been good.

And yes, Sox fans will remember and care about this season by May of next year, because next season will just be a continuation of the suckitude.

I have seen mention of the Sox 1970 season more than few times this year.

[WestEddy]

18 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Sure, the Sox were never going to be in competition for the division, but Getz did have a plan to improve the defense.  He said as much himself in the offseason.

https://soxmachine.com/2024/02/chris-getz-white-sox-defense/

The big three are injury-prone and unreliable.  If all the fans know it, Getz should have known it.  RF fell apart when his expected starter acquisition in Dominic Fletcher busted hard.  Benintendi was bad last year and Vaughn has never been good.

And yes, Sox fans will remember and care about this season by May of next year, because next season will just be a continuation of the suckitude.

Nobody ever said that "Getz didn't know these three were injury prone". That's a ludicrous strawman. When your three main offensive players all go down at the same time with injury, that's a setback, regardless of whether somebody "could have known" or not. Knowing doesn't magically make them well and put them back on the field. If they had better players in reserve, those better players would be starting over the injury prone. 

I seriously don't understand what's so hard to understand about that. It's argumentative to try to take that "excuse" off the table by saying he "should have known". The only ways to have prevented those three injuries from derailing the plan of "just kind of bad" was to either load up the 4 open positions with the best players available, either by trade or free agency, or to just cut Robert, Yoan, Eloy, Benintendi and Vaughn, and again, then go out and replace them. 

And we don't even know if the first option was possible, given payroll restrictions, the Sox' reputation, and that players signing a contract would be looking at playing during an obvious rebuild. You don't know what players were available in trade or FA, and seeing that it took until the season started for them to finally sign Pham and Clevinger says to me that anybody was holding out for a better offer from anyone. 

[WestEddy]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yeah, you don't get to claim that he "knew", yet use it as an excuse for failure.   Competitive teams plan around these things.  The Dodgers are loaded with half season players, but they are so deep they can work around it.  What you are describing is building your house in a uninsurable hurricane zone, but then blaming the hurricane for tearing your house down, even though you knew full well it would happen.  If your plan is building sand castles on the beach, you are planning for failure.

I'm not claiming he knew. You are. And it's not even an excuse. Those 3 players actually got injured, and then didn't play in games for long periods of time. The Sox weren't a competitive team. You don't get to sweep away the actual *fact* that Eloy, Yoan and Robert were injured and couldn't play by saying Getz "should have known". 

As I just posted to WS2023, they either could have loaded up with offensive players at the other positions to absorb their absence, players we don't even know were available to them on the FA market, or should have had better players in reserve to replace them. If they had better players in reserve, those players would be starting. 

It seems to me that you are claiming that if Yoan, Eloy and Robert never got injured and played every game, AND if Vaughn and Benintendi magically turned it around and OPSed a passable .700+ and played good defense, they would still be losing an historic amount of games, just because. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, WestEddy said:

I'm not claiming he knew. You are. And it's not even an excuse. Those 3 players actually got injured, and then didn't play in games for long periods of time. The Sox weren't a competitive team. You don't get to sweep away the actual *fact* that Eloy, Yoan and Robert were injured and couldn't play by saying Getz "should have known". 

As I just posted to WS2023, they either could have loaded up with offensive players at the other positions to absorb their absence, players we don't even know were available to them on the FA market, or should have had better players in reserve to replace them. If they had better players in reserve, those players would be starting. 

It seems to me that you are claiming that if Yoan, Eloy and Robert never got injured and played every game, AND if Vaughn and Benintendi magically turned it around and OPSed a passable .700+ and played good defense, they would still be losing an historic amount of games, just because. 

That is quite literally his job.  It is his job to know his roster and his players.  If he didn't plan for the fact that all three of these players AVERAGE missing between 40 and 50% of every single major league season they have played into how to build this team, he doesn't deserve his job.  That is 100% a part of assessing what any season will look like when you have these players on your roster.  When the very thing that always happens, actually happens, you don't get to say darn it happened, and now that's why we are so bad.  That is ridiculous.

[WestEddy]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

That is quite literally his job.  It is his job to know his roster and his players.  If he didn't plan for the fact that all three of these players AVERAGE missing between 40 and 50% of every single major league season they have played into how to build this team, he doesn't deserve his job.  That is 100% a part of assessing what any season will look like when you have these players on your roster.  When the very thing that always happens, actually happens, you don't get to say darn it happened, and now that's why we are so bad.  That is ridiculous.

1) This year was an obvious rebuild year. There was no plan to be competitive. 
2) Nobody has ever claimed that Getz didn't know players could get injured. 

They had a plan B on each person who went down. No, those plan Bs weren't "plug in star player who will be better than the guy he replaces".  The disconnect comes when you're expecting Getz to have multiple layers of plans in place to be competitive in a year that we all agree could not, in any way, have been "competitive". 

It's like, if 5 starting players are killed in bus crash, then you start complaining that GMs should know that bus crashes happen, and they should still be competitive. 

 

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

1) This year was an obvious rebuild year. There was no plan to be competitive. 
2) Nobody has ever claimed that Getz didn't know players could get injured. 

They had a plan B on each person who went down. No, those plan Bs weren't "plug in star player who will be better than the guy he replaces".  The disconnect comes when you're expecting Getz to have multiple layers of plans in place to be competitive in a year that we all agree could not, in any way, have been "competitive". 

It's like, if 5 starting players are killed in bus crash, then you start complaining that GMs should know that bus crashes happen, and they should still be competitive. 

 

It's not at all like that.

On one hand you have 3 players who in their major league careers have missed 40 to 50% of their teams game played on an annual basis.  On the other hand you have a national average of 12 deaths per 100,000 people or something with a 0.012% chance of happening in a given year to any one person.

[Tnetennba]

“I want us to play cleaner, winning-type baseball,” Getz said.

About that...

 

[T R U]

43 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

The bizarre narrative is that Chris Getz didn't realize that players could get injured. To me, that's the most bizarre strawman of all time. 3 key players were injured, 2 other key players crashed and burned. Saying Getz "should have known" is the most bizarre strawman of all time. "Knowing" doesn't change the fact that 3 guys got injured, and 2 others produced zeroes. Competitive teams often don't recover from that. The Sox weren't built to be competitive. 

Assuming I know the "key" players you are referring to, I think you actually mean key player.

Benintendi and Vaughn sucked last year, and continue to suck this year. Its because they aren't good, they aren't slumping.

Moncada and Jiminez sucked last year, and continue to suck and get injured this year.

The only key player we lost in this was Luis Robert, who continues to get hurt every year.

[WestEddy]

3 minutes ago, T R U said:

Assuming I know the "key" players you are referring to, I think you actually mean key player.

Benintendi and Vaughn sucked last year, and continue to suck this year. Its because they aren't good, they aren't slumping.

Moncada and Jiminez sucked last year, and continue to suck and get injured this year.

The only key player we lost in this was Luis Robert, who continues to get hurt every year.

Moncada started out hot, and is still top ten in bWAR on this team. Eloy and Yoan's 2023 numbers would make a world of difference on this team. Robert and Eloy don't seem to be lifting this team on their return. 

[WhiteSox2023]

48 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Nobody ever said that "Getz didn't know these three were injury prone". That's a ludicrous strawman. When your three main offensive players all go down at the same time with injury, that's a setback, regardless of whether somebody "could have known" or not. Knowing doesn't magically make them well and put them back on the field. If they had better players in reserve, those better players would be starting over the injury prone. 

I seriously don't understand what's so hard to understand about that. It's argumentative to try to take that "excuse" off the table by saying he "should have known". The only ways to have prevented those three injuries from derailing the plan of "just kind of bad" was to either load up the 4 open positions with the best players available, either by trade or free agency, or to just cut Robert, Yoan, Eloy, Benintendi and Vaughn, and again, then go out and replace them. 

And we don't even know if the first option was possible, given payroll restrictions, the Sox' reputation, and that players signing a contract would be looking at playing during an obvious rebuild. You don't know what players were available in trade or FA, and seeing that it took until the season started for them to finally sign Pham and Clevinger says to me that anybody was holding out for a better offer from anyone. 

Getz DID load up on acquiring outfielders to account for two of three of his injury-prone players.  The problem is that all of those acquisitions sucked as well.  Once again, Getz’s failure.

[chitownsportsfan]

You are what your record says you are. Period. This is pro sports. Getz quite loudly announced a plan for the team to immediately become solid defensively and with enough otherwise to field a competitive squad the fans could appreciate.

And now where are we?

[WestEddy]

8 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Getz DID load up on acquiring outfielders to account for two of three of his injury-prone players.  The problem is that all of those acquisitions sucked as well.  Once again, Getz’s failure.

They didn't "suck". Pham is fine, and Julks is adequate as the weak half of an OF platoon. Both provided a bit of a spark to the offense. Grossman could take a walk, and brought back a future bullpen arm. 

If you're referring to the trades for Fletcher and DeLoach, they're not considered "ready". 

It's a rebuilding year. They were never expected to be competitive. Please point us to this magical GM you know of who has won every single trade and FA signing. 

[WestEddy]

3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

You are what your record says you are. Period. This is pro sports. Getz quite loudly announced a plan for the team to immediately become solid defensively and with enough otherwise to field a competitive squad the fans could appreciate.

And now where are we?

I'm not going to quibble about the actual words of an introductory press conference. He did make a couple positions better, defensively. Not as good as he wanted to, but SS and 2B aren't the black holes they were last year. I would also argue Lee is better than the tandem of Zavala/Grandal. Injuries and timelines forced them to revert to Sheets in RF to get his bat in the lineup. 

[chitownsportsfan]

2 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I'm not going to quibble about the actual words of an introductory press conference. He did make a couple positions better, defensively. Not as good as he wanted to, but SS and 2B aren't the black holes they were last year. I would also argue Lee is better than the tandem of Zavala/Grandal. Injuries and timelines forced them to revert to Sheets in RF to get his bat in the lineup. 

Just stop. Sheets was playing OF in spring training bro.

[Nardiwashere]

A group of pioneers are on the Oregon Trail heading west.  The group is led by Kenneth and Richard who recruited the pioneers and obtained all the wagons, oxen, and supplies.  

The front left wheel keep breaking on the large wagon every month.  There is an ox that seems to pull its muscles seemingly every time you cross into a new state.  One of your best hunters who spent too much time at the Saloons in Northwest Indiana keeps getting dysentery.    

Gerald, the patriarch of the group gets embarrassed that the group is taking longer than it should to travel the trail.  He tells Kenneth and Richard they are no longer allowed to lead everyone.  He appoints Christopher to take their place when they reach Idaho.  

They stop at a little town outside Boise.  Christopher would love to get rid of that faulty wagon wheel and get a new one, buy a brand new healthy ox, and find a hunter who is more dependable.  Gerald tells him he doesn't have enough money left. 

They only have enough to get a used spare wagon wheel, a mule in case the strong ox gets hurt again, and give hunting lessons to a young kid in the travel party.  

It is less than ideal, but they only have to make it one more state before they get to their destination and can rid themselves of all the crappy stuff Kenneth and Richard purchased.  Once they get to Oregon, they will be free to start anew.

Immediately after leaving town, the ox pulls his hamstring, the hunter passes out due to illness, and the wagon wheel cracks in half.  They put the reins on the mule, hand the rifle to the young hunter-in-training, and replace the wagon wheel with the makeshift spare.

It is taking the group longer than most anyone has ever took to travel from Idaho to Oregon.  

Three guys in the back of the travel party keep blaming Christopher and saying "he should have known" about the wheel, hunter, and injury prone ox.

Edited June 26 by Nardiwashere

[WhiteSox2023]

2 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

They didn't "suck". Pham is fine, and Julks is adequate as the weak half of an OF platoon. Both provided a bit of a spark to the offense. Grossman could take a walk, and brought back a future bullpen arm. 

If you're referring to the trades for Fletcher and DeLoach, they're not considered "ready". 

It's a rebuilding year. They were never expected to be competitive. Please point us to this magical GM you know of who has won every single trade and FA signing. 

We have very different definitions of “adequate”.  Pham is replacement level (.735 OPS) after his initial hot streak.  Julks has a .688 OPS after his initial hot streak.  Grossman was awful for the Sox (.597 OPS) so it’s nice that he brought back a reliever.  Fletcher was expected to be the RF starter against righties and was awful (.480 OPS).  Fletcher was expected to be ready based on his MLB sample size last year but now he wasn’t ready?  Okay…

[WhiteSox2023]

3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Just stop. Sheets was playing OF in spring training bro.

I even remember commenting on it and I was assured that there were enough outfield options that Sheets would not see time in RF.  ?

[T R U]

23 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Moncada started out hot, and is still top ten in bWAR on this team. Eloy and Yoan's 2023 numbers would make a world of difference on this team. Robert and Eloy don't seem to be lifting this team on their return. 

Moncada is certainly better than anyone else we could put there. Eloy is just as worthless and the rest of the trash on this roster.

[WhiteSox2023]

9 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I'm not going to quibble about the actual words of an introductory press conference. He did make a couple positions better, defensively. Not as good as he wanted to, but SS and 2B aren't the black holes they were last year. I would also argue Lee is better than the tandem of Zavala/Grandal. Injuries and timelines forced them to revert to Sheets in RF to get his bat in the lineup. 

2B isn’t still a black hole?

[T R U]

4 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

We have very different definitions of “adequate”.  Pham is replacement level (.735 OPS) after his initial hot streak.  Julks has a .688 OPS after his initial hot streak.  Grossman was awful for the Sox (.597 OPS) so it’s nice that he brought back a reliever.  Fletcher was expected to be the RF starter against righties and was awful (.480 OPS).  Fletcher was expected to be ready based on his MLB sample size last year but now he wasn’t ready?  Okay…

Julks.. .179 avg and .555 OPS in June.

[WestEddy]

6 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I even remember commenting on it and I was assured that there were enough outfield options that Sheets would not see time in RF.  ?

Sheets didn't get his first OF start until 4/17, well after the last of Eloy, Yoan and Robert went down. 

[Tnetennba]

When the goalpost moving is as circular as the arguments...

[T R U]

9 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

2B isn’t still a black hole?

Defensively, no.

But Nicky Lopez is still a 0.0 bWAR player who wont be here next season so yeah, there is still no answer in sight for the future of the position on this team.

[WhiteSox2023]

7 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Sheets didn't get his first OF start until 4/17, well after the last of Eloy, Yoan and Robert went down. 

Right after the big three lasted 17 games into the season.  ?