Shut Out Counter

[WestEddy]

13 minutes ago, T R U said:

They just don't spend the money they do have wisely.

Were paying approx. $4.75 million to Maldonado and Stassi. One is arguably the worst player in baseball and the other is not going to play at all. Should have just found out what you had in Korey Lee and signed some defensive only guy off the scrap heap.

Ill just assume that we HAD to take Nicky Lopez in that Atlanta deal, otherwise there's another $4.3 million wasted. The DeJong signing is one that they got right. Dirt cheap, and we may get an asset out of it.

Tommy Pham is in the same boat, dirt cheap again and we may get an asset out of him.

Clevinger and Flexen, another $4.75 million wasted. Nobody is interested in Clevinger and Flexen is awful. They could have thrown AAA guys out there if they just wanted a guy to eat innings to a tune of 5-6 ERA.

And the bullpen, jesus. Brebbia $4 million. Soroka $3 million (Again, ill assume we had to take him in the deal with Atlanta)

Just throwing away money on useless players. I would rather they just invest that into scouting and development instead of one season of worthless baseball.

The point of this season was to grab up a bunch of pitchers, see who they could rehab into innings eaters or better, then flip them. You won't hit on every player. The $12m spent on Fedde, Flexen and Soroka was an insanely great investment. Fedde will be one of the best pitchers on the trade market, and Flexen will bring back an interesting piece. He does not "suck". He's a serviceable #4. 

The Bummer trade brought us a pretty good pitching prospect in Riley Gowans and an okay bullpen arm in Shuster. 

You're not going to hit on every single player who puts on a uniform. I think of them in bunches. If one of three hits, the whole exercise is a success. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Chimpton said:

And this stat is from when a tanking team would get the first draft pick the following year, that doesn't apply to the White Sox.

And large portions of this were from when you could unlimited spend in the draft, and you could unlimited spend in the international market, and you could unlimited spend in Japan, and you could unlimited spend on payroll with no negative impacts.

[WestEddy]

15 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Point is, it was wasted money.  0 WAR isn’t 1 WAR and Lopez is a huge part of this historically bad offense.

Lopez is a small part of the bad offense. He's also a saving grace on the infield. 

[WestEddy]

12 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Getz actually wanted Little Nicky as his starting 2B and Soroka in the rotation.  He could’ve still made the same trade with the Braves and non-tendered Lopez and/or Soroka if he wanted to.

https://www.mlb.com/press-release/press-release-white-sox-agree-to-terms-on-one-year-contracts-with-seven-players-avoiding-arbitration

Minor note but Brebbia is actually earning $5.5 million for this season.

Your last sentence is the key and it would be amazing if Reinsdorf ever realized that THAT is more important than having your GM waste around $20 to $30 million on bums each and every offseason.

Why would he have wanted to non-tender Soroka? The plan was to get Fedde, Flexen and Soroka, and try to make any of them pop. As I told TRU, the ~$12m invested in those three was a huge success. That would be like signing Frankie Montas, but having him be one of the most sought after arms on the trade market. Flexen is also serviceable, and may even bring back an interesting piece. 

The same goes with the money spent in the bullpen. I don't know how Getz would do it differently, but Knebel and Barlow also exist, and are both throwing rehab games right now. I'm sure they won't be productive before the TDL, but it was a gamble. If Wilson  or Brebbia bring back pieces, that gamble was a success. 

[WestEddy]

14 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

One more time just for emphasis, there is a big difference between being 100 losses bad, and 120 losses bad.  One has happened once in 125 years.  91 teams have lost 100 or more games just since 1962.

https://www.mlb.com/news/best-teams-following-100-loss-season

also of note as to how far behind we would be at 100 losses...

 

But you would mock any moves to shave 20 losses off of that final total, wouldn't you? At this point, while there's a difference, that difference doesn't matter. 

[WhiteSox2023]

Just now, WestEddy said:

Why would he have wanted to non-tender Soroka? The plan was to get Fedde, Flexen and Soroka, and try to make any of them pop. As I told TRU, the ~$12m invested in those three was a huge success. That would be like signing Frankie Montas, but having him be one of the most sought after arms on the trade market. Flexen is also serviceable, and may even bring back an interesting piece. 

The same goes with the money spent in the bullpen. I don't know how Getz would do it differently, but Knebel and Barlow also exist, and are both throwing rehab games right now. I'm sure they won't be productive before the TDL, but it was a gamble. If Wilson  or Brebbia bring back pieces, that gamble was a success. 

I didn’t say he should have non-tendered Soroka, just that he could have if he wanted to.  I do think he should’ve non-tendered Lopez.  I don’t see Flexen as being a serviceable #4 starter, more like a weak #5.  It will take a desperate team to be interested in him IMO and the return will be almost nothing.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

But you would mock any moves to shave 20 losses off of that final total, wouldn't you? At this point, while there's a difference, that difference doesn't matter. 

Trying to win today, at the expense of tomorrow, with a 120 loss team?  Yeah, I am going to be mocking that for sure.  Grinding through worthless players so as to block anyone who has control and needs on the job training, it an absolute mistake.  As of today, this is about getting the most out of the players who are going to be here in 5 years, and not winning more games in 2024.

[WestEddy]

4 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I didn’t say he should have non-tendered Soroka, just that he could have if he wanted to.  I do think he should’ve non-tendered Lopez.  I don’t see Flexen as being a serviceable #4 starter, more like a weak #5.  It will take a desperate team to be interested in him IMO and the return will be almost nothing.

Why would he have wanted to non-tender Soroka? He could have also non-tendered Eloy. Or Robert. Soroka was part of the plan to get a small group of starters, and to see who popped, if any. Lopez is probably the most balanced of the group of utility infielders they were going to fill second base from, you know, in a rebuild year. And you with the hyperbole. Flexen already has more than 1 bWAR. That's an average major leaguer. I think most teams would love to slot a 2-WAR pitcher for 33 starts at #5. 

I'm not even going to look up names, but there's guys who could barely cut it in AAA that the Sox ran out there for 10 starts in years past who were "weak" #5s. Flexen is so much more than Odrisamer Despaigne, or whatever. 

Yes, a team that is in the wild card race, has been hit by injuries, and doesn't have 'that guy' at AAA will be 'desperate' for a guy like Flexen who could take the ball every 5th day, and has a fighter's chance of throwing you a quality start. That's about a third of the league, at this point. 

[WestEddy]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Trying to win today, at the expense of tomorrow, with a 120 loss team?  Yeah, I am going to be mocking that for sure.  Grinding through worthless players so as to block anyone who has control and needs on the job training, it an absolute mistake.  As of today, this is about getting the most out of the players who are going to be here in 5 years, and not winning more games in 2024.

Now you're changing the subject. Losses don't matter. and yeah, they're trying to showcase guys like Pham, Eloy, Sheets, etc. to turn them into a bullpen arm. Is 5 weeks of playing time more important than getting another arm in the system? I honestly don't know. I think Colas, if still here, will have a whole 2 months to get PAs with the big club. 

[Dick Allen]

22 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Lopez is a small part of the bad offense. He's also a saving grace on the infield. 

Saving grace? They are 21-60. 

Are you John Schriffen? I was just thinking the other day if Getz somehow is able to pawn Lopez off on someone, The Schriff might hand them the WS trophy and tell us how great Nicky is with the glove, and how he works ABs. A true star.

[T R U]

26 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

The point of this season was to grab up a bunch of pitchers, see who they could rehab into innings eaters or better, then flip them. You won't hit on every player. The $12m spent on Fedde, Flexen and Soroka was an insanely great investment. Fedde will be one of the best pitchers on the trade market, and Flexen will bring back an interesting piece. He does not "suck". He's a serviceable #4. 

The Bummer trade brought us a pretty good pitching prospect in Riley Gowans and an okay bullpen arm in Shuster. 

You're not going to hit on every single player who puts on a uniform. I think of them in bunches. If one of three hits, the whole exercise is a success. 

Flexen sucks. He has a 5.13 ERA and a 5.03 FIP and last year had a 6.86 ERA with a 6.22 FIP. There is no chance that we get an interesting piece for him in a trade.

Dude sometimes you make some really good posts and then other times you say the most ridiculous things. Riley Gowens is a 24 year old in A ball with a mid 4 ERA. He is not a pretty good pitching prospect.

[southsider2k5]

10 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Now you're changing the subject. Losses don't matter. and yeah, they're trying to showcase guys like Pham, Eloy, Sheets, etc. to turn them into a bullpen arm. Is 5 weeks of playing time more important than getting another arm in the system? I honestly don't know. I think Colas, if still here, will have a whole 2 months to get PAs with the big club. 

This is absolutely not changing the subject, it is salvaging what you can out of a historically bad season.  Besides it isn't like we have done this anyway and continue to run players out there who have no future, nor trade value, out there on a daily basis.

[WestEddy]

25 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Saving grace? They are 21-60. 

Are you John Schriffen? I was just thinking the other day if Getz somehow is able to pawn Lopez off on someone, The Schriff might hand them the WS trophy and tell us how great Nicky is with the glove, and how he works ABs. A true star.

No, I'm me. 

Yes, Nicky Lopez has brought good defense to the position. Just because the team is on a historically bad path doesn't mean I must declare that every player on the team sucks at every part of the game. 

Out of Lopez, Remillard, Mendick, Sosa and Shewmake I think Remy hits a little better than the rest. I think Lopez is the best, defensively. 

[Dick Allen]

7 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

No, I'm me. 

Yes, Nicky Lopez has brought good defense to the position. Just because the team is on a historically bad path doesn't mean I must declare that every player on the team sucks at every part of the game. 

Out of Lopez, Remillard, Mendick, Sosa and Shewmake I think Remy hits a little better than the rest. I think Lopez is the best, defensively. 

He still isn't anything for than a defensive replacement on a good team. He's a poor man's Yolmer Sanchez. 

[WestEddy]

31 minutes ago, T R U said:

Flexen sucks. He has a 5.13 ERA and a 5.03 FIP and last year had a 6.86 ERA with a 6.22 FIP. There is no chance that we get an interesting piece for him in a trade.

Dude sometimes you make some really good posts and then other times you say the most ridiculous things. Riley Gowens is a 24 year old in A ball with a mid 4 ERA. He is not a pretty good pitching prospect.

Flexen will finish the year as an average major league pitcher. 2 WAR. I don't really look at ERA. Too many other factors out of the pitcher's control affect it. Gowens k/9 and BB/9 are good. Doesn't allow a lot of baserunners. Could do more to limit HRs. But he's an interesting prospect. He'll probably get to AA after the trade deadline. 

Flexen, granted, he's a bit of a Houdini. But he is getting results. He's not a top of the staff ace, no. He is an arm that keeps you in most of his games. I wouldn't say he sucks. I just wouldn't rely upon him. Somebody will take him in a trade. 

Thanks for saying I sometimes have good posts. It's appreciated. 

Edited Wednesday at 09:02 PM by WestEddy

[WestEddy]

31 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

This is absolutely not changing the subject, it is salvaging what you can out of a historically bad season.  Besides it isn't like we have done this anyway and continue to run players out there who have no future, nor trade value, out there on a daily basis.

You're going to have 2 months of watching Colas, Sosa, DeLoach and others kick the ball around. Right now, at the half way point, Korey Lee and Lenyn Sosa are getting starter innings. Thorpe and Cannon are in the rotation. Tanner Banks, Jared Shuster and Jordan Leasure have pitched a bunch of innings. 

Pham, Sheets, DeJong, maybe even Eloy and Robert could be gone in 5 weeks. Isn't Julks kind of in a platoon with Benny, now?

[WestEddy]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

He still isn't anything for than a defensive replacement on a good team. He's a poor man's Yolmer Sanchez. 

This is not a good team. I agree with you on the Yolmer comp. Yolmer could run into one, tho. Lopez has zero power. I have a sneaking suspicion he will be our SS after 7/30. 

[4OCS]

35 minutes ago, T R U said:

Flexen sucks. He has a 5.13 ERA and a 5.03 FIP and last year had a 6.86 ERA with a 6.22 FIP. There is no chance that we get an interesting piece for him in a trade.

 

There are currently 22 teams within four games of a wildcard or better and plenty of them are running out worse starters than Flexen. A few injuries pile up, Flexen strings together a couple decent starts. Definitely could be moved. With expanded playoff format, TDL is obvious seller’s market

[WestEddy]

41 minutes ago, T R U said:

Flexen sucks. He has a 5.13 ERA and a 5.03 FIP and last year had a 6.86 ERA with a 6.22 FIP. There is no chance that we get an interesting piece for him in a trade.

Dude sometimes you make some really good posts and then other times you say the most ridiculous things. Riley Gowens is a 24 year old in A ball with a mid 4 ERA. He is not a pretty good pitching prospect.

I just looked at the 2000 pitching staff to see who I thought he was like. Was always underwhelmed by those guys, Sirotka, Parque, Baldwin. I always thought Baldwin "sucked", even though they ran him out there for years. Flexen's stats are right in line with Baldwins. Maybe a little more strikeouts. LOL. 

[Kyyle23]

 

 

11 shutouts

 

 

[T R U]

5 minutes ago, 4OCS said:

There are currently 22 teams within four games of a wildcard or better and plenty of them are running out worse starters than Flexen. A few injuries pile up, Flexen strings together a couple decent starts. Definitely could be moved. With expanded playoff format, TDL is obvious seller’s market

I didn't say he couldn't be moved, I said we wouldn't get anything interesting for him.

[T R U]

7 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I just looked at the 2000 pitching staff to see who I thought he was like. Was always underwhelmed by those guys, Sirotka, Parque, Baldwin. I always thought Baldwin "sucked", even though they ran him out there for years. Flexen's stats are right in line with Baldwins. Maybe a little more strikeouts. LOL. 

James Baldwin was an all-star in 2000 lol

[southsider2k5]

10 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I just looked at the 2000 pitching staff to see who I thought he was like. Was always underwhelmed by those guys, Sirotka, Parque, Baldwin. I always thought Baldwin "sucked", even though they ran him out there for years. Flexen's stats are right in line with Baldwins. Maybe a little more strikeouts. LOL. 

Yeah, you are missing the changes in era of pitching.

James Baldwin with a 4.65 era was above average for an ERA+ of 108

Chris Flexen with a 5.13 era is 20% below average with an ERA+ of 80.

Flexen's ERA of 4.97 for his career is an 83 ERA+, while Baldwins higher 5.01 ERA actually worked out to an ERA+ of 92.

[southsider2k5]

20 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

You're going to have 2 months of watching Colas, Sosa, DeLoach and others kick the ball around. Right now, at the half way point, Korey Lee and Lenyn Sosa are getting starter innings. Thorpe and Cannon are in the rotation. Tanner Banks, Jared Shuster and Jordan Leasure have pitched a bunch of innings. 

Pham, Sheets, DeJong, maybe even Eloy and Robert could be gone in 5 weeks. Isn't Julks kind of in a platoon with Benny, now?

The only reason Sosa is here is because of the injury to Moncada.  Lee is not starting nearly enough while sharing time with literally the worst player in baseball this year.

[T R U]

That 2000 White Sox team had 7 of 9 starters with an OPS over .800

Sheeeeeesh