Pastime Posted November 9, 2003 Share Posted November 9, 2003 I am 1/4 owner of a small baseball card store. Do we spend beyond our means? No. However, if investing more money than usual in the store would increase the amount of customers that walked through the door (advertising, special deals, etc), then yes. I would spend. If Reinsdorf spent just an extra 5-10 million on the payroll, the fans would see that and respond. They responded last July, August, and September, didn't they? All Reinsdorf is doing is pissing off the borderline fans and convincing them to not come to the park. If we go into the season with a crappy roster, US Cellular Field will be a ghost-town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forkit Posted November 9, 2003 Share Posted November 9, 2003 No, that would be "grillion." Forkit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridgeport_Joe Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Is "zillion" not a real number? I thought that came after trillion. That's actually an interesting philosophical question. The answer is yes, "zillion" is probably a word. There are an infinite amount of numbers. Given that there are only 26 letters in the alphabet, there is a finite number of letter combinations (i.e., words), assuming you limit the length of a word to some number of letters. Accordingly, each letter combination must either be a word that does something other than describe a number, or it must correspond to some number. Thus, given that "zillion" doesn't describe something other than a number, there must be some number equal to a "zillion." The contrary argument is that "zillion" does describe something other than a specific number--it describes a large, nonspecific number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forkit Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Pastime: Let me re-phrase the question you asked and answered yourself: You said: "...If investing more money than usual in the store would increase the amount of customers that walked through the door (advertising, special deals, etc), then yes. I would spend." The real answer is that you'd spend more IF you felt it would add more to the bottom line. I don't believe you meant to say that you'd spend more if it meant more traffic, but instead were implying that more traffic would translate into a better bottom line. What if JR really feels he is at the best ratio of spending to bottom line profits? What if he feels that he cannot put out $70 million in payroll in 2004 and turn a profit? As a businessman [not a baseball fan spending 'play' money], should he spend what he feels is best for his business? To further the discussion, I always wonder why they don't ALWAYS make the upper deck seats cheaply available on game day, because an empty seat means no concessions sold for that potential seat. Why not $5 upper deck seats when you buy them at the door on the day of the game? Wouldn't it be better to always get at least 20,000 times $5 a day, plus the concessions sold than have the upper deck empty? These guys are very astute businessmen...I assume they did the math, right? Or am I assuming too much? And of course, there is one thing not mentioned in this discussion...don't you feel some of the players didn't show up for the whole season? Whether it's not performing under pressure or being unable to play well the first couple of months, I wonder if JR and friends feel a little like they added to the team [instead of subtracting through trades] at the All-Star break and then got less than acceptable performance from some of the players when it counted. More $$ does not always equal more performance, which translates into more fans at the game, etc. I'm not criticizing your post in any fashion. I am just wondering out loud after reading your post. Forkit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Lopez Ghost (old) Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Will we do anything worthwhile this offseason? Well, the upper deck is being chopped off. That's worthwhile. We will assemble a team that will stay within Reinsdorf's budget constraints. That's worthwhile to him. Other than that though......No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastime Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 We'll have our answer to this question after December 14th. The winter meetings are in New Orleans December 11-14. The GM's meetings are in Phoenix this week, I think. The GM's meetings. Kenny Williams sitting with the other GM's. Wow. Talk about a 5th grade 5-foot point guard thrown into an NBA lineup. Never send a boy to do a man's job. But we have no choice. Sadly. But I have confidence in Kenny. I'm also confident that the sun will rise in the West tomorrow morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Forkit, you make some very good points. In fact, I can not only understand Reinsdorf running the team as a business first, but I expect it. He has to do so. However, he keeps undercutting his own product, i.e. the team. He also shot himself in the foot with his clientelle (sp?) by leading the way to work stoppage of '94 when his product was at it's peak. He runs this team like it was located in KC, Pittsburg or Nashville. He's in Chicago! If he'd give the city and the surrounding communities a product worthy of Chicago, then the fans would support it. I also think that Wrigley Field and the Luvable Losers can be overtaken, again, in the hearts of the area's baseball fans. It won't be easy and it will take some time, but it can be done. The problem is that he has himself to blame for this particular mess. When he pulled the Sox off of WGN and put them on Sportsvision, he really screwed the pooch with his clientelle again. He needs to market this team, the ballpark and the players aggressively. Yes, Jerry ...the players! I know you hate to do that because then they will be more popular and demand more money to stay, and you'll take a PR hit if they leave. BUT IF THE PLAYERS ARE MORE POPULAR, YOU"LL GET MORE BUTTS IN THE SEATS!!! Stop trying to put a "competitive" team on the field every year. Start trying to put a Championship caliber team on the field every year and you will see a world of difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastime Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Yas, Like I've said before, he has the mindset of "you come to the park, and I'll spend the money." The Sox fans have the mindset of "you spend the money, and I'll come to the park." The idiot saw firsthand last year that the latter is the mindset that rules, but he's too stupid, too blind, or too ignorant and stubborn to actually "get it." Sox fans have made it crystal clear to the moron that they will get their way or not come. But he continues to buck the system and tries to prove how tough he is. Well, he's not tough, and if the team is full of crap come April 2nd, the fans will speak again. But old dips*** probably won't listen. And the average attendance will continue to be about 10,000-15,000. He truly is a jackass. I don't wish ill will on anyone, but if he doesn't sell the team soon, I hope he chokes on a piece of pepperoni. The guy shoots himself in the foot worse than Gomer Pyle would in an old Western movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Pastime, it's a simple business philosophy really. If you want more customers, put out a better product or better value. It's not, "If I get more customers, I will then improve my product." That's what he's trying to sell to Sox fans, and generally, we ain't buying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastime Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Damn, Yas. You hit it right on the head. I have tried numerous times to word it properly, and you did it. Someday the jerk will figure it out. Or maybe he just doesn't care. I'm starting to think that the Sox are just a little toy to him. What a moron. "I would gladly trade the Bulls 6 Championships for just 1 World Series Championship." - White Sox Chairman, Owner, and Liar Jerry Reinsdorf Now you know why it's in my signature. He talks a big talk, but walks a tiny walk. He's a liar and a fraud. I'm so sorry he's the owner of this team. Jerk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Damn, Yas. You hit it right on the head. I have tried numerous times to word it properly, and you did it. Someday the jerk will figure it out. Or maybe he just doesn't care. I'm starting to think that the Sox are just a little toy to him. What a moron. "I would gladly trade the Bulls 6 Championships for just 1 World Series Championship." - White Sox Chairman, Owner, and Liar Jerry Reinsdorf Now you know why it's in my signature. He talks a big talk, but walks a tiny walk. He's a liar and a fraud. I'm so sorry he's the owner of this team. Jerk. I'm glad I could be of assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastime Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Sign Ponson and Pavano. Sign Castillo. That's it. That's all I ask. We could really be good by doing that. I'm so frustrated I could scream. But I won't. The neighbors might get the wrong idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Lopez Ghost (old) Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Forkit, you make some very good points. In fact, I can not only understand Reinsdorf running the team as a business first, but I expect it. He has to do so. However, he keeps undercutting his own product, i.e. the team. He also shot himself in the foot with his clientelle (sp?) by leading the way to work stoppage of '94 when his product was at it's peak. He runs this team like it was located in KC, Pittsburg or Nashville. He's in Chicago! If he'd give the city and the surrounding communities a product worthy of Chicago, then the fans would support it. I also think that Wrigley Field and the Luvable Losers can be overtaken, again, in the hearts of the area's baseball fans. It won't be easy and it will take some time, but it can be done. The problem is that he has himself to blame for this particular mess. When he pulled the Sox off of WGN and put them on Sportsvision, he really screwed the pooch with his clientelle again. He needs to market this team, the ballpark and the players aggressively. Yes, Jerry ...the players! I know you hate to do that because then they will be more popular and demand more money to stay, and you'll take a PR hit if they leave. BUT IF THE PLAYERS ARE MORE POPULAR, YOU"LL GET MORE BUTTS IN THE SEATS!!! Stop trying to put a "competitive" team on the field every year. Start trying to put a Championship caliber team on the field every year and you will see a world of difference. Along with all his obvious faults, Reinsdorf has a weird one that nobody talks about. When given a choice he always takes the most boring option. Examples: 1. He let Harry Caray go to the Cubs, a marketing disaster akin to the Titanic. 2. He built a boring ballpark that they're still trying to fix. 3. He hired Darren Jackson to be half of the number one way you market a ball club, the daily voice of your ballclub. Hard to believe the Cubs seized the media attention...gee it started around 1982.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forkit Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Ok, all valid answer to my questions. I'll ask one more: For those of you that don't know, JR and EE are very astute businessmen. These aren't dotcom idiots that made their money in a market frenzy, like some of the newer owners that many here are enamored with. These guys are real bottom-line oriented businessmen. And I really believe JR loves baseball, though that's probably irrelevant to this question, but perhaps not. Given that they are such astute businessmen, does anyone have any idea why they wouldn't subscribe to the "put a better team on the field, and we'll make more money" theory? If the answer is so obvious to the fans that post here, how could they possibly miss it? Good businessmen don't continue to be profitable businessmen by missing "sure things." Forkit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 And I really believe JR loves baseball, though that's probably irrelevant to this question, but perhaps not. I don't believe for a minute that JR loves (or even likes) baseball. He seems to have one true passion, money. Everyone says he runs this like a business, if this is true, he doesn't seem to be that good at running a business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Ok, all valid answer to my questions. I'll ask one more: For those of you that don't know, JR and EE are very astute businessmen. These aren't dotcom idiots that made their money in a market frenzy, like some of the newer owners that many here are enamored with. These guys are real bottom-line oriented businessmen. And I really believe JR loves baseball, though that's probably irrelevant to this question, but perhaps not. Given that they are such astute businessmen, does anyone have any idea why they wouldn't subscribe to the "put a better team on the field, and we'll make more money" theory? If the answer is so obvious to the fans that post here, how could they possibly miss it? Good businessmen don't continue to be profitable businessmen by missing "sure things." Forkit! You trying to say that it is not a sure thing, forkit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 To further the discussion, I always wonder why they don't ALWAYS make the upper deck seats cheaply available on game day, because an empty seat means no concessions sold for that potential seat. Why not $5 upper deck seats when you buy them at the door on the day of the game? Wouldn't it be better to always get at least 20,000 times $5 a day, plus the concessions sold than have the upper deck empty? These guys are very astute businessmen...I assume they did the math, right? Or am I assuming too much? I am somehow jumping in the middle on this one, so I may have missed something. forkit, are you suggesting that this would be a viable business move that would bring in more revenue/profit? Or were you being facetious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Forkit, The reason why as a businessman they can not offer $5 tickets right before the game is because it will lower the amount of people that purchase tickets ahead of time. Its the same problem that the Airplane industry has. They are going to fly the plane if it has 150 passengers or 75, so why not sell the last 75 at 50% discount a week before the flight? The problem is that the 75 passengers who already booked the flight will get screwed over, they will next time wait till the last minute to buy a ticket and try and save the 50%. Eventually very few people will buy tickets a head of time when they can save money. The same for baseball, if I can wait till gameday to buy a ticket at cheaper prices, it si giving me so much more power. I can buy tickets for games that are good weather, that have good pitching match ups, or are against better teams. All the risk is on the side of the White Sox, and they will lose more revenue because every $25 ticket they lose is worth 4 people. $25-5= 20/5=4. So for it to be profitable they will need to replace every $25 with 5 people, and that just is not feasible with the park only holding a limited amount of people. That being said, Reinsdorf is a greedy owner. He has more money then he will know what to do with, and while $5-10 mil in payroll increase sounds like a lot to the average person, it is a drop in the bucket to a Major league owner. The only reason Resindorf is in sports is for power and money. He has no passion like other owners, and thats why he would rather die then ever risk even losing $1 on the White Sox, or Bulls for that matter. Also, I would not overestimate how much Reinsdorf knows about business. He made his money in real estate, a much different market then sports. If he wanted only money he would of sold the bulls and white sox together during Jordan's final year of playing, maximizing the value of both franchises. Instead he sat on them, much like you would do for real estate appreciating, and when the time comes to sell he will lose $100's of millions. So in reality, it is best to have a winning team if you are going to sell, and an average team if you are going to hold. I expect when Reinsdorf is going to sell he will load the Sox on talent, and sell the next year for a much higher value. In reality the Sox could be one of the most expensive and lucrative teams if they are winners. ::shrugs;: Its all so problematic to try and break down sports on an economic level, thats why most owners are not in sports to make money. Ah well, as for what I hope happens: I hope the Sox sign Pavano, I would kind of be interested in a deal for Freddy Garcia, I think he could be the inning eater that Ponson will be and if he can get his stuff back has much more upside. Signing Latroy Hawkins or Tom Gordon. But the harsh reality is, most likely the White Sox will need to rely on cheap players stepping up to make a big impact. SB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Sign Ponson and Pavano. Sign Castillo. That's it. That's all I ask. We could really be good by doing that. I'm so frustrated I could scream. But I won't. The neighbors might get the wrong idea. Couldn't agree more...move Konerko and Koch if needed and just sign a few vets for the pen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 I wouldn't pay more than 6 mill for Ponson and he won't sign for that. Get Bastista/Livan and Anderson/Pavano/Alvarez combined for that kind of money. Well, maybe for a mill more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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