Brad Keller DFA

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, Nardiwashere said:

Come on now.  Jake Cousins?  He's 30 and they had him in the organization for like 90 days.  You don't think that is picking nits?  

Teams make decisions on guys like the ones on your list all the time.  Don't think Getz is going to be remembered for losing out on Lane Ramsey. 

Speas and Burdick have gone through the cycle multiple times. Smith Njigba. Teams claim guys they think might help. Then either they have a roster crunch, or realize what 5 other teams realized. If Getz is panicking, then half the league is panicking. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, WestEddy said:

Why are you assuming that placeholder vets and struggling kids are two different plans? If you bring up a prospect, and you see he's struggling mightily, why are we married to "that struggling prospect must start every game the rest of the year"? That's not "how they learn", as everybody keeps claiming. 

I can certainly buy into Getz seeing the first three weeks, and realizing he had to do something to avoid the record books. He adjusted. Churned in more vets to see who clicked, cycled in Nastrini, League, Cannon, Ramos, Sosa, Fletcher, Shuster, and got the guys out who needed to work on something that would be catastrophic at the ML level. 

Oscar Colas got 1 AB.  What could management possibly have learned from that one AB that gave them the knowledge he wasn't ready?  Conversely if they already knew he wasn't ready, why did they recall him in the first place?

Nastrini got 8 innings in two appearances.

Canon got 13 innings in 3 appearances.

Berroa got one appearance.

What exactly are they learning that quickly, that wasn't apparent before they were called up, but they learned in once on the mound or at the plate?

If they aren't ready, don't recall them, use these shitty placeholders.  If you are going to recall them, give them some time.  That's why it looks like lurching from plan to plan.  Most importantly quit giving guys away so you can get one AB or one appearance from someone.

[JoeC]

56 minutes ago, Capn12 said:

No idea why Leone deserves a spot more than Keller. I'd rather have Keller tbh, Leone is cooked.

My guess is that Leone gets DFA before Keller's spot's next time up in the rotation, at which point they call up Thorpe or someone else.

Leone can give you some innings, regardless of quality, before Keller's spot's next time up.

[JoeC]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

 Did we really need to see Rafael Ortega hit like Martin Maldonado to know he sucks? 

Well, we let Martin Maldonado hit like Martin Maldonado, and we don't seem to grasp that he sucks, so yes.

[Nardiwashere]

9 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Speas and Burdick have gone through the cycle multiple times. Smith Njigba. Teams claim guys they think might help. Then either they have a roster crunch, or realize what 5 other teams realized. If Getz is panicking, then half the league is panicking. 

Yup.  The idea that Getz has panicked and shipped out a bunch of prospects when he got rid of Matthew Thompson, Jose Rodriguez, and then a list of 6 guys between the age of 26-29 (one of which appears to still be on the Knights) is silly.

[WestEddy]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Oscar Colas got 1 AB.  What could management possibly have learned from that one AB that gave them the knowledge he wasn't ready?  Conversely if they already knew he wasn't ready, why did they recall him in the first place?

Nastrini got 8 innings in two appearances.

Canon got 13 innings in 3 appearances.

Berroa got one appearance.

What exactly are they learning that quickly, that wasn't apparent before they were called up, but they learned in once on the mound or at the plate?

If they aren't ready, don't recall them, use these shitty placeholders.  If you are going to recall them, give them some time.  That's why it looks like lurching from plan to plan.  Most importantly quit giving guys away so you can get one AB or one appearance from someone.

Okay, well, you've been criticizing Ortega having been called up to the parent club, and here, you're saying to play him, not Colas (if it's just one game). 

Somebody here explained the situation pretty well, and everybody calmed down. They didn't know the extent of Moncada's injury, needed an OF on the 26-man, so they called up the only high level OF on the 40 man for a game while they evaluated their needs. They didn't bring Colas up to evaluate him. He was a body, then he went back. I think that's understandable. 

Nastrini and Cannon had nice first starts, then started looking progressively worse in their subsequent starts. I've said repeatedly that I can get on board with sending these guys back to work on some issues that revealed themselves with pro hitters - out of the spotlight, and not as part of a historic bad start. We all talk about "rushing kids" and "prospects not being ready". Those are all really subjective. 

I think the Sox have stabilized into just a bad team, and that's enough cover for a guy like Ramos to get a longer audition without national news outlets opening with that night's White Sox loss. 

I truly think that Brad Keller was more about getting Flexen and Soroka figured out. That is a plan Getz made early on, and is still holding to. Shuster's advancement makes an exposed Keller superflous. 

But the whole point is if somebody's angry and wants Getz to fail, none of these moves make sense. If you're along for the ride, trying to see what happens, there's sense in it. 

[Harry Chappas]

12 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

They shouldn't be giving away any of them for guys who aren't going to be here in a year.

Unless they can be flipped for something better.  There is a risk there but for the  Grossmann's, Keller's, Pham's the hope is that there is something to be gained by trading them.  DFA'ing a Popeye is not a good idea unless the vet that bumped him is flipped for a better Popeye.

The prospects that were rushed this year were done so by necessity.  The pitchers because Clevenger and Keller were not ready and Flexen and then Soroka were killing the pen.

My hope is Getz is doing all of this to give the guys time in minors as opposed to rushing the Vaughan's and Madrigal's that could have hampered them.  

Pham, Grossman, Feddee, Keller gambles in 2020-2022 would have been great as compared to stacking the 40 man with MiLB fodder and rushing guys.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, WestEddy said:

Okay, well, you've been criticizing Ortega having been called up to the parent club, and here, you're saying to play him, not Colas (if it's just one game). 

Somebody here explained the situation pretty well, and everybody calmed down. They didn't know the extent of Moncada's injury, needed an OF on the 26-man, so they called up the only high level OF on the 40 man for a game while they evaluated their needs. They didn't bring Colas up to evaluate him. He was a body, then he went back. I think that's understandable. 

Nastrini and Cannon had nice first starts, then started looking progressively worse in their subsequent starts. I've said repeatedly that I can get on board with sending these guys back to work on some issues that revealed themselves with pro hitters - out of the spotlight, and not as part of a historic bad start. We all talk about "rushing kids" and "prospects not being ready". Those are all really subjective. 

I think the Sox have stabilized into just a bad team, and that's enough cover for a guy like Ramos to get a longer audition without national news outlets opening with that night's White Sox loss. 

I truly think that Brad Keller was more about getting Flexen and Soroka figured out. That is a plan Getz made early on, and is still holding to. Shuster's advancement makes an exposed Keller superflous. 

But the whole point is if somebody's angry and wants Getz to fail, none of these moves make sense. If you're along for the ride, trying to see what happens, there's sense in it. 

If that is your point, it is wrong.  No one wants this failure that is happening now.  People recognizing that there is a complete lack of vision and strategy here are also not wanting it to happen.

The rest of it is again a lack of patience and consistency.  The daily win loss results for an awful team are secondary to accumulating and training talent.

Take Rafael Ortega and his singular butterfly effect.  If the Sox really felt that no young OF was good enough to be on this team, then sticking with a guy like Ortega is fine.  But dropping someone from the 40 man roster, so that they could recall him, barely play him, and then drop him doesn't make sense in that you had to drop someone to make a slot to not stick with blocking whoever you decided wasn't ready in the first place.  Ortega was on the roster for 18 days and got 14 PAs.  If he is needed to block someone from the roster, then keep him.  If you wanted to audition him to see what he had, what did you get out of 14 PAs scattered over 18 days?  He got neither consistent time to get comfortable, nor a real chance to show you anything in the first place.  Did Fletcher learn so much in the minors in those 18 days which justified DFAing Bailey Horn to make room for Ortega in the first place, that they couldn't have just been left alone originally? 

if guys like Nastrini and Canon were being "rushed" why roster them in the first place?  What did Nick Nastrini really get to do in 8 innings that helped him or the franchise learn something about him that they couldn't see in Charlotte?  If you don't know he is ready enough for the majors to go through more than 8 innings to know he isn't ready, you probably shouldn't have rostered him in the first place.  Same with Cannon and his extra appearance/5 innings.  If you don't know they are ready enough to stay longer than 2 or 3 starts, just stick with the same roster holders as you did before.  What are you doing for the confidence of these kids to give them 2 chance at the MLB level, only to pull the rug right back out from under them?  Did they really learn from that?  They sure didn't build any comfort or confidence in themselves with that fragile of an existence.

[WestEddy]

8 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

Yup.  The idea that Getz has panicked and shipped out a bunch of prospects when he got rid of Matthew Thompson, Jose Rodriguez, and then a list of 6 guys between the age of 26-29 (one of which appears to still be on the Knights) is silly.

Yohan Ramirez is another one. White Sox had him last year, selected off waivers from the Pirates. They DFAed him in the flurry of traded Braves guys and Erick Fedde's signing. The Mets grabbed him. Baltimore grabbed him in the roster crunch that hits everyone at the end of ST. For some reason, Baltimore DFAed him May 2, and the Mets grabbed him up again. The Mets cut him May 15 among a flurry of moves, and now, he's been traded to the Dodgers. 

And Getz only seems to be doing this with OFs. He's not cycling through the same IF guys who are making their way from team to team. We seem set with Remy, Mendick, Sosa, Ramos, Shewmake and Lopez, Lord help us. But hey, if somebody clearly better LH-hitting 2B than Shewmake or Lopez hit the wire, I wouldn't put it past Getz to try to upgrade. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

15 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Just constantly replacing flotsam and jetsam with more flotsam and jetsam. Garbage in...garbage out.

I can't see any rhyme or reason to what Getz is doing or trying to do.

 

 

Come on Lip. You know who the owner is. You know the budget was cut tremendously this year. You heard Reinsdorf say the Sox cannot compete at their current location. Use your head. Getz is a pawn in whatever game Reinsdorf is playing. He's got nothing to work with except the decent amount of talent that's in AA right now.

His big acquisition was Fedde, a guy no one else of the other teams thought highly enough of to outbid the Sox even though most teams need starting pitching. All Fedde has to do is not implode for 2 more months. We'll see what type of talent he gets and the level in the system it goes to.

Same thing with Pham. Cease brought in 3 prospects that slotted in our top 10 and he rolled the dice that Wilson might fetch a better prospect than a 4th prospect the Padres might've been offering.

Every pitcher after Fedde was the reason he hired Bannister as are any yet to be acquired.

When all you can do is scrounge among players that every other team rejected you can thank Reinsdorf for that.

There's been no solid evidence that Getz has done much wrong. He hasn't been on the job long enough yet to decide that all the roster churning he's doing will make any difference. He knows they are at a minimum looking 4 or 5 years down the road. And even then who knows where thing will stand with the franchise . All we can do is hope he brings in more talent and that it develops enough to move the needle going forward with whatever JR has up his sleeve.

I don't know if Getz will be any better or worse than any other pawn JR hired to GM the team but I do know that JR doesn't pay for talent because they refuse to operate under the constraints JR puts on them. When was the last time a JR hire was considered among the very best in any part of the organization ? Now imagine the best people at multiple key levels of the organization instead of just one position without Reinsdorf's short sighted  approach on how to be a competitive winning organization .

 

 

 

[WestEddy]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If that is your point, it is wrong.  No one wants this failure that is happening now.  People recognizing that there is a complete lack of vision and strategy here are also not wanting it to happen.

The rest of it is again a lack of patience and consistency.  The daily win loss results for an awful team are secondary to accumulating and training talent.

Take Rafael Ortega and his singular butterfly effect.  If the Sox really felt that no young OF was good enough to be on this team, then sticking with a guy like Ortega is fine.  But dropping someone from the 40 man roster, so that they could recall him, barely play him, and then drop him doesn't make sense in that you had to drop someone to make a slot to not stick with blocking whoever you decided wasn't ready in the first place.  Ortega was on the roster for 18 days and got 14 PAs.  If he is needed to block someone from the roster, then keep him.  If you wanted to audition him to see what he had, what did you get out of 14 PAs scattered over 18 days?  He got neither consistent time to get comfortable, nor a real chance to show you anything in the first place.  Did Fletcher learn so much in the minors in those 18 days which justified DFAing Bailey Horn to make room for Ortega in the first place, that they couldn't have just been left alone originally? 

if guys like Nastrini and Canon were being "rushed" why roster them in the first place?  What did Nick Nastrini really get to do in 8 innings that helped him or the franchise learn something about him that they couldn't see in Charlotte?  If you don't know he is ready enough for the majors to go through more than 8 innings to know he isn't ready, you probably shouldn't have rostered him in the first place.  Same with Cannon and his extra appearance/5 innings.  If you don't know they are ready enough to stay longer than 2 or 3 starts, just stick with the same roster holders as you did before.  What are you doing for the confidence of these kids to give them 2 chance at the MLB level, only to pull the rug right back out from under them?  Did they really learn from that?  They sure didn't build any comfort or confidence in themselves with that fragile of an existence.

Nobody wanted to audition Ortega. He was a veteran OF who could cover CF in spurts. He's a 4th OF by definition. They have a major league team where they have to roster 26 players. Not every single roster move is going to be about learning or teaching. It's also unfair to saddle the front office with having to "know" whether a player will succeed or not upon promotion. Jackson Holliday didn't take off in his ML playing time, and the Orioles dropped him back to AAA. Is that a failure? Shouldn't they have known he wouldn't have succeeded? 

The gap is so large between AAA and the majors, short of the truly gifted and the guys like Remillard who are "fundamentals" guys, there's really no telling. 

I keep saying that they don't want to drop rookies into a situation where they're "learning", failing, and being splayed across the national news for knocking a fly ball over the wall, or screwing up a run down. Now that they're not the lead story for their historic futility, these guys can get lit up and not be THE REASON the Sox suck this season. I would also imagine Fletcher's riding the bench next to the OF coach, and learning that way. 

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Nobody wanted to audition Ortega. He was a veteran OF who could cover CF in spurts. He's a 4th OF by definition. They have a major league team where they have to roster 26 players. Not every single roster move is going to be about learning or teaching. It's also unfair to saddle the front office with having to "know" whether a player will succeed or not upon promotion. Jackson Holliday didn't take off in his ML playing time, and the Orioles dropped him back to AAA. Is that a failure? Shouldn't they have known he wouldn't have succeeded? 

The gap is so large between AAA and the majors, short of the truly gifted and the guys like Remillard who are "fundamentals" guys, there's really no telling. 

I keep saying that they don't want to drop rookies into a situation where they're "learning", failing, and being splayed across the national news for knocking a fly ball over the wall, or screwing up a run down. Now that they're not the lead story for their historic futility, these guys can get lit up and not be THE REASON the Sox suck this season. I would also imagine Fletcher's riding the bench next to the OF coach, and learning that way. 

So if there was no point to having Ortega on the roster, why cut Bailey Horn to make room for him in the first place?  They could have just kept Kevin Pillar if they wanted the extra placeholder OF.  He would have brought exactly what you needed to the team without having to cut someone to make room for him, knowing full well you weren't going to get anything for him.

[chitownsportsfan]

38 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

Yup.  The idea that Getz has panicked and shipped out a bunch of prospects when he got rid of Matthew Thompson, Jose Rodriguez, and then a list of 6 guys between the age of 26-29 (one of which appears to still be on the Knights) is silly.

Those two things aren't really related. He clearly is just throwing s%*# at the wall in hopes it sticks. Now if you consider that "panic" OK, if you consider it "needed roster churn" OK, but it's pretty obvious there's not some holistic plan that centers around anything more than "just don't set the all time loss record". And of course if finding a decent journeyman with a couple arb years left is part of that plan, great, but again, it's really just trying things to try things, which will only ever be acceptable this season and is not anything to build a GM resume on going forward.

[Quin]

5 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Those two things aren't really related. He clearly is just throwing s%*# at the wall in hopes it sticks. Now if you consider that "panic" OK, if you consider it "needed roster churn" OK, but it's pretty obvious there's not some holistic plan that centers around anything more than "just don't set the all time loss record". And of course if finding a decent journeyman with a couple arb years left is part of that plan, great, but again, it's really just trying things to try things, which will only ever be acceptable this season and is not anything to build a GM resume on going forward.

But Corey Julks hit a home run!

[chitownsportsfan]

1 minute ago, Quin said:

But Corey Julks hit a home run!

I hope he gets hotter than s%*#. If we find half a dozen 2 WAR players we might win 75 games next season.

[Quin]

8 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I hope he gets hotter than s%*#. If we find half a dozen 2 WAR players we might win 75 games next season.

Bold of you to assume we have a 30-game improvement, but I'll take it.

[WestEddy]

26 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

He knows they are at a minimum looking 4 or 5 years down the road.

For the most part, I agree with your whole post. Except this line. Depending on how a Robert trade works out, next year should already look more stabile, be more entertaining, and at the very least, on our way towards a .500 record. The AA team will be hitting no later than 2nd half of 2025. It would take 5 years to rebuild from nothing, and Getz already had 3 good drafts banked when he took over. 

[T R U]

5 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

For the most part, I agree with your whole post. Except this line. Depending on how a Robert trade works out, next year should already look more stabile, be more entertaining, and at the very least, on our way towards a .500 record. The AA team will be hitting no later than 2nd half of 2025. It would take 5 years to rebuild from nothing, and Getz already had 3 good drafts banked when he took over. 

This is about as close to rebuilding from nothing as it gets. The return on a Robert trade is going to be massive in how long this thing will take.

[WestEddy]

20 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So if there was no point to having Ortega on the roster, why cut Bailey Horn to make room for him in the first place?  They could have just kept Kevin Pillar if they wanted the extra placeholder OF.  He would have brought exactly what you needed to the team without having to cut someone to make room for him, knowing full well you weren't going to get anything for him.

Who said there was no point to having Ortega on the roster? Everybody here screams there must be accountability. So they drop Fletcher down to AAA for a few weeks for whatever reasons, and now that's bad. You keep connecting moves like, "if they were going to do this, why not that?" Again every acquisition isn't about learning. They took a flier on Horn, looked at him for a couple of weeks, and decided resources were better spent elsewhere. Same with Matt Thompson. I could also imagine that politics plays into it, too. Thompson was a Hostetler draftee, Horn was a Shirley draftee. Maybe the Shirley people had a better plan for Horn's development than Hostetler had for Thompson, and they moved on. From both. Like Jared Kelley. 

Pillar wasn't working for them, for whatever reason. That reason could be that Grifol wants to play the platoon splits, and there was no room for Pillar. Great. Maybe that's just another "we gave you what you wanted and you didn't make it work" tally. I'm not sure what the problem is with the roster churn. It would have been nice if Pillar had his hot streak in Chicago rather than Anaheim. I don't think the up and down will hurt prospects as much as staying up, and getting shelled every game in the national spotlight. 

You have 5+ starting pitching prospects at AA, A+ and A ball. Complex league has a few interesting arms. They're starting to get promoted. There's a draft in about 8 weeks. They have to make room for the better prospects who are coming along quicker rather than spend time and resources trying to figure out a new way to beg Matt Thompson to throw strikes. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

For the most part, I agree with your whole post. Except this line. Depending on how a Robert trade works out, next year should already look more stabile, be more entertaining, and at the very least, on our way towards a .500 record. The AA team will be hitting no later than 2nd half of 2025. It would take 5 years to rebuild from nothing, and Getz already had 3 good drafts banked when he took over. 

If you look at the 2024 Sox they are building from nothing.

I don't see a many players who the Sox have on the MLB team now that will still be here when the 2027 season starts. Maybe Korey Lee and Ramos.

Realistically who turns into a quality MLB player from AA in just 3 years from now ? Anyone who comes up will be maybe I'm their 2nd season . Others will be rookies or trying to get a foothold up here.

I try not to overestimate the talent so I'm conservative with my estimates and knowing it'll take more than a few players from the farm to field a team capable of playing a wild card playoff game.

I also don't know if JR will still be in charge or what level of talent will be brought back from a Robert trade or whoever else they get this deadline. I'd also feel better about massive upgrades in how they operate internationally and with player development.

And while I don't condemn Getz because of JR I don't have much faith in the organization as a whole if JR is still in charge.

[WestEddy]

22 minutes ago, T R U said:

This is about as close to rebuilding from nothing as it gets. The return on a Robert trade is going to be massive in how long this thing will take.

2016 had 3 tradable assets, no development system, and little in the farm. While we had Semien and Bassett, nobody considered them to be much beyond utility and bullpen. 

The Giolito, Lynn, Burger, Graveman, Middleton and Bummer trades set us up far better than we sat in 2013.

Edited May 20 by WestEddy

[Nardiwashere]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

If you look at the 2024 Sox they are building from nothing.

I don't see a many players who the Sox have on the MLB team now that will still be here when the 2027 season starts. Maybe Korey Lee and Ramos.

Realistically who turns into a quality MLB player from AA in just 3 years from now ? Anyone who comes up will be maybe I'm their 2nd season . Others will be rookies or trying to get a foothold up here.

I try not to overestimate the talent so I'm conservative with my estimates and knowing it'll take more than a few players from the farm to field a team capable of playing a wild card playoff game.

I also don't know if JR will still be in charge or what level of talent will be brought back from a Robert trade or whoever else they get this deadline. I'd also feel better about massive upgrades in how they operate internationally and with player development.

And while I don't condemn Getz because of JR I don't have much faith in the organization as a whole if JR is still in charge.

Guys who will be on the team or coming up in the next year and a half

C Lee & Quero

LF Benitendi

CF Robert

3B Ramos

SS Montgomery

RF TBD

2B TBD

1B TBD

DH TBD

 

SP Crochet/Thorpe/Nastrini/Cannon/Iriarte/Eder/Bush/Adams

 

Then you have whoever we get at the deadline for Fedde, Kopech, Flexen, Brebbia, Eloy, Vaugn, Sheets, etc. 

Then any FA signings and trades in the offseason. 

Don't see how its a 5 year rebuild. 

[Dick Allen]

Shockingly, all the ex-Royals, despite playing for their careers, have not worked out.

[T R U]

11 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

Guys who will be on the team or coming up in the next year and a half

C Lee & Quero

LF Benitendi

CF Robert

3B Ramos

SS Montgomery

RF TBD

2B TBD

1B TBD

DH TBD

 

SP Crochet/Thorpe/Nastrini/Cannon/Iriarte/Eder/Bush/Adams

 

Then you have whoever we get at the deadline for Fedde, Kopech, Flexen, Brebbia, Eloy, Vaugn, Sheets, etc. 

Then any FA signings and trades in the offseason. 

Don't see how its a 5 year rebuild. 

Lee & Quero, both unknowns. Benintendi stinks. Robert will most likely be traded. Ramos is an unknown. Montgomery is an unknown. You have 4 TBD's on there. Your starting pitching is Crochet who you can still argue is an unknown followed by all unknowns.

So basically, we have absolutely nothing for the next year and a half unless you want to play the assumption game.

[TheFutureIsNear]

18 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

So that Getz can dfa him when he isn't ready.

Was just thinking that. Is there a counter that compares our # of roster moves Vs the rest of the league? Feel like Getz is doing the most literal example of “shuffling the chairs on the Titanic” ever.