CWSpalehoseCWS Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 2 hours ago, SoCalChiSox said: We're not going to chase A level FAs but with payroll super low next year and with the Sox already scheduling a SoxFest, it suggests we will sign some solid non-scrub FAs to give people something to talk about. More likely the 20th anniversary of the 2005 team as the centerpiece for Soxfest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said: Fedde? A guy who was a scrap heap "20% of the time this works out" type signing? The type of signing the Sox have made for a decade, even when firmly in the contention window and need much more than just 20% odds of average production? You can't make a living signing guys that had career .3 WAR to fill out the rotation. That's doomed to fail over a large sample, as we've all seen. The occasional lightning strike doesn't make up for the half a dozen misses before and after. There are plenty of things to rip on the Sox but this really isn’t one of them. They’re actually quite good at signing the mid rotation FA starting pitcher in recent years. 2024 - Fedde 2023 - Clevinger 2022 - Cueto Their issue has always been primarily tied to the position player FA signings. That has been a huge struggle for a long time. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 5 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said: More likely the 20th anniversary of the 2005 team as the centerpiece for Soxfest. Lol yeah. Make no major moves, have the prospects there and guys from the 05 team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 10 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: Oh, we've made a number of "highly competitive bids" over the last decade. It's resulted in amazing signings like Beni and others. Spin it any way you want. They actually offered more than the Phillies. Wheeler's wife wanted to be on the East Coast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 1 minute ago, WestEddy said: I'm not sure if you're agreeing or arguing with me. It is difficult. I think that in the past, the Sox just succumbed to public pressure, and signed Adam Dunn, or plugged in a AAAA player. But scouting and signing Frankie Montas isn't some great accomplishment. We're in a rebuild. This T R U guy is suggesting that filling starting roles through the minor leagues, then finishing with FA is impossible, or something. JR has "approved" it happening when he had a GM who wanted to do it. Ron Schueler and KW didn't seem to have any problem. We'll see how Getz does. I suppose he's over his head because he doesn't call all his players garbage on a message board. LOL. I think the point you and Nardi aren’t acknowledging is if we trade Robert then we literally have to fill an entire lineup from scratch. Yes, there are some prospects at AA and above who should be ready by next season but it’s very likely a chunk of them end up failing. And yes, we should certainly get some more positional prospects via trade, although the same hit rates apply. The reality is we will need to sign multiple impact to free agents to go from what will likely be a 50 win team to 80 win team in two years. The challenge there is threefold. 1) The market has to have players of need. 2) We have to hope Getz & Watson can identify the right players. 3) We have to hope Jerry and Getz can actually get them signed. While not theoretically impossible, it involves a ton of pieces and many of which are out of our control. And I’d be much more optimistic if Jerry were willing to sign legit stars like the Rangers did instead of the Andrew Benintendi types who can fall off a cliff on day one. Personally, I think 2027 is a more reasonable goal to reach .500 unless we hit on a huge number of prospects or Jerry goes hog wild in free agency for the first time in his life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nardiwashere Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 8 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: There are plenty of things to rip on the Sox but this really isn’t one of them. They’re actually quite good at signing the mid rotation FA starting pitcher in recent years. 2024 - Fedde 2023 - Clevinger 2022 - Cueto Their issue has always been primarily tied to the position player FA signings. That has been a huge struggle for a long time. Yes! Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 42 minutes ago, WestEddy said: The fact that you can't even name one of these guys and give a reason says to me you have no idea what a good pitching prospect is, strange or otherwise. It's kind of prickish to pretend you're interested in somebody's thinking, ask them to write up a list, then piss on it. Huh? I removed all the guys I didn’t think were good prospects. Do you really need me to write a paragraph why Drohan isn’t a good SP prospect? And please, don’t talk to me about prickish, you’re one of the biggest assholes posting here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 27 minutes ago, WestEddy said: We're in a rebuild. This T R U guy is suggesting that filling starting roles through the minor leagues, then finishing with FA is impossible, or something. JR has "approved" it happening when he had a GM who wanted to do it. Ron Schueler and KW didn't seem to have any problem. We'll see how Getz does. I suppose he's over his head because he doesn't call all his players garbage on a message board. LOL. No, I’m suggesting that filling 12-15 MLB roster spots with minor leaguers from our system and a handful of B/C free agents for NEXT SEASON isn’t going to improve this club to knocking on the door of .500 especially if we trade off Crochet and Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 (edited) 31 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Spin it any way you want. They actually offered more than the Phillies. Wheeler's wife wanted to be on the East Coast. Oh God, not with this BS again. Nothing counts until you actually sign the premier free agent. If the Sox truly had the top offer to Wheeler and wanted him so badly, did they offer him a bit more money to change his wife’s mind? I mean, after all, they ended up paying their alternative signing (Keuchel) not to pitch later on. This isn’t spin. The Sox either signed a guy or didn’t. This “almost” BS is just that. BS. Giving credit to the Sox for missing out on their target is laughable. Edited June 6 by WhiteSox2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 2 minutes ago, T R U said: Huh? I removed all the guys I didn’t think were good prospects. Do you really need me to write a paragraph why Drohan isn’t a good SP prospect? And please, don’t talk to me about prickish, you’re one of the biggest assholes posting here. Reason. Not paragraph, reason. "Drohan - junkballer". You're dismissive. If you don't think there are 15 starting pitching prospects in our system, just say so. Don't coax me into giving you a list, then just be a condescending prick about it. You think I'm an asshole? I give back as good as I get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nardiwashere Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I think the point you and Nardi aren’t acknowledging is if we trade Robert then we literally have to fill an entire lineup from scratch. Yes, there are some prospects at AA and above who should be ready by next season but it’s very likely a chunk of them end up failing. And yes, we should certainly get some more positional prospects via trade, although the same hit rates apply. The reality is we will need to sign multiple impact to free agents to go from what will likely be a 50 win team to 80 win team in two years. The challenge there is threefold. 1) The market has to have players of need. 2) We have to hope Getz & Watson can identify the right players. 3) We have to hope Jerry and Getz can actually get them signed. While not theoretically impossible, it involves a ton of pieces and many of which are out of our control. And I’d be much more optimistic if Jerry were willing to sign legit stars like the Rangers did instead of the Andrew Benintendi types who can fall off a cliff on day one. Personally, I think 2027 is a more reasonable goal to reach .500 unless we hit on a huge number of prospects or Jerry goes hog wild in free agency for the first time in his life. I pretty much agree with everything you said. If we trade Robert, it does make it more difficult (obviously, depending on who we get). That's why I don't really think we should trade him yet. Saying reaching .500 in 2027 is completely reasonable. My problem is with the posters who act like it another 5-7 years away or impossible entirely. What they aren't acknowledging is that there is a wave of players that are coming up in the next 18 months. They are mostly on the pitching side but we have a couple bats coming up as well. Additionally, we will probably have some position player prospects arriving via trade at the deadline. We'll need to play them next year and a half. A lot will fail but some will succeed. I'm guessing after the trade deadline and this draft, we will have a top ten farm system with a majority of the better players in the higher levels. I don't think anyone in this thread has made any outlandish predictions regarding the hit rates for prospects. In fact, I said I would keep Crochet and sign a mid rotation type FA pitcher so we would need less of the pitching prospects to hit and I was called mocked, called a goofball, and told that the team would never be able to sign a FA pitcher that fit in the middle of a rotation. That's nonsense. Every team should be able to acquire players like that... I'm wasn't claiming they could sign Juan Soto. If the front office fails to identify the right players or if they don't convert on their targets, they should be criticized when that happens. Crying about Rick Hahn's failures in 2018-2022 in a conversation about 2025-2027 is just pouting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 1 minute ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Oh God, not with this "factual truth" BS again. Nothing counts until you actually sign the premier free agent. If the Sox truly had the top offer to Wheeler and wanted him so badly, did they offer him a bit more money to change his wife’s mind? I mean, after all, they ended up paying their alternative (Keuchel) not to pitch later on. This isn’t spin. The Sox either signed a guy or didn’t. This “almost” BS is just that. BS. There, fixed it for you. What should they do? Give him twice what he's worth? That's stupid. Then everybody's wife "hates" Chicago, and we're paying twice the going rate. It's total spin. No, Hahn wasn't a good GM. But let's quit with the BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 5 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Reason. Not paragraph, reason. "Drohan - junkballer". You're dismissive. If you don't think there are 15 starting pitching prospects in our system, just say so. Don't coax me into giving you a list, then just be a condescending prick about it. You think I'm an asshole? I give back as good as I get it. Sir you said 15 GOOD SP prospects. Now you’ve moved the goal posts to just 15 prospects. Your specialty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 28 minutes ago, T R U said: Huh? I removed all the guys I didn’t think were good prospects. Do you really need me to write a paragraph why Drohan isn’t a good SP prospect? And please, don’t talk to me about prickish, you’re one of the biggest assholes posting here. Oh, I didn't see that you made changes in the response. Sorry for my reaction. You're not condescending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 (edited) 5 minutes ago, WestEddy said: There, fixed it for you. What should they do? Give him twice what he's worth? That's stupid. Then everybody's wife "hates" Chicago, and we're paying twice the going rate. It's total spin. No, Hahn wasn't a good GM. But let's quit with the BS. Where did I ever say to offer Wheeler twice the going rate? I said that if the Sox truly wanted him, they should’ve sweetened their offer to change his wife’s mind about Chicago. Money talks. If the Sox were so confident in Wheeler being the best starter target, they should have gone the extra yard to sign him. Instead, they wasted millions on their second target and we all know how that ended up. Epic fail. Meanwhile, Wheeler is still an ace and on his second contract with the Phillies. I’m not giving any credit to the Sox for whiffing on Wheeler. That’s a joke. ? Edited June 6 by WhiteSox2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 1 minute ago, WestEddy said: Oh, I didn't see that you made changes in the response. Sorry for my reaction. You're not condescending. lol ok that makes more sense. I’m on my phone, so not easy to respond in full detail as I’d like to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 4 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Where did I ever say to offer Wheeler twice the going rate? I said that if the Sox truly wanted him, they should’ve sweetened their offer to change his wife’s mind about Chicago. Money talks. If the Sox were so confident in Wheeler being the best starter target, they should have gone the extra yard to sign him. Instead, they wasted millions on their second target and we all know how that ended up. Epic fail. Meanwhile, Wheeler is still an ace and on his second contract with the Phillies. I’m not giving any credit to the Sox for whiffing on Wheeler. That’s a joke. ? Keuchel was the very last remaining of the so-called "upper tier" FA pitchers and hadn't pitched all that great with the Braves in an abbreviated season if I remember correctly... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 28 minutes ago, T R U said: No, I’m suggesting that filling 12-15 MLB roster spots with minor leaguers from our system and a handful of B/C free agents for NEXT SEASON isn’t going to improve this club to knocking on the door of .500 especially if we trade off Crochet and Robert. True, but if you're talking about 2026, a lot can happen in 2 off-seasons, 2 drafts and 2 trade dead-lines. I just got caught up in the "impossible to sign a mid-rotation starter" part of the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 (edited) 6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Keuchel was the very last remaining of the so-called "upper tier" FA pitchers and hadn't pitched all that great with the Braves in an abbreviated season if I remember correctly... Which is why when you have confidence in your primary target, you lock it up, even if you have to offer more money. You don’t settle for your backup target. The Sox likely neither had the confidence in their decision nor wanted to offer more money. On May 22, 2022, the Sox paid their backup target $14.1 million to not pitch for them for the rest of the season. Edited June 6 by WhiteSox2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 18 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said: I pretty much agree with everything you said. If we trade Robert, it does make it more difficult (obviously, depending on who we get). That's why I don't really think we should trade him yet. Saying reaching .500 in 2027 is completely reasonable. My problem is with the posters who act like it another 5-7 years away or impossible entirely. What they aren't acknowledging is that there is a wave of players that are coming up in the next 18 months. They are mostly on the pitching side but we have a couple bats coming up as well. Additionally, we will probably have some position player prospects arriving via trade at the deadline. We'll need to play them next year and a half. A lot will fail but some will succeed. I'm guessing after the trade deadline and this draft, we will have a top ten farm system with a majority of the better players in the higher levels. I don't think anyone in this thread has made any outlandish predictions regarding the hit rates for prospects. In fact, I said I would keep Crochet and sign a mid rotation type FA pitcher so we would need less of the pitching prospects to hit and I was called mocked, called a goofball, and told that the team would never be able to sign a FA pitcher that fit in the middle of a rotation. That's nonsense. Every team should be able to acquire players like that... I'm wasn't claiming they could sign Juan Soto. If the front office fails to identify the right players or if they don't convert on their targets, they should be criticized when that happens. Crying about Rick Hahn's failures in 2018-2022 in a conversation about 2025-2027 is just pouting. Multiple people, myself included, have already said 2027 is realistic for getting back to .500 every team should be able to acquire players like that, the White Sox choose not to pay for those players. No Fedde doesn’t count. No Mike Clevinger doesn’t count. The attempt at signing Wheeler is the closest they’ve been signing one of those type of pitchers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 9 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Where did I ever say to offer Wheeler twice the going rate? I said that if the Sox truly wanted him, they should’ve sweetened their offer to change his wife’s mind about Chicago. Money talks. If the Sox were so confident in Wheeler being the best starter target, they should have gone the extra yard to sign him. Instead, they wasted millions on their second target and we all know how that ended up. Epic fail. Meanwhile, Wheeler is still an ace and on his second contract with the Phillies. I’m not giving any credit to the Sox for whiffing on Wheeler. That’s a joke. ? They negotiated a contract, and the guy's wife threw down. What's "a little bit" more? Do you not think they pursued that, and hit a dead end? The point is, they had the highest offer. A whole bunch of people keep throwing out "JR won't pony up free agents!!" He has, and I think he still will. It's a dumb narrative. He had a two-headed hydra for 12 or so years, and they kept fucking up. He spends, Hahn just spent his money unwisely. Hahn was not a good GM. He could sure pull off the trade, but (and I don't know if it was KW) but he wasn't good with the plan Bs. Maybe that's why he always tried to nail his big moves early and quick, and be done by day 2 of the owners' meetings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 (edited) 6 minutes ago, WestEddy said: They negotiated a contract, and the guy's wife threw down. What's "a little bit" more? Do you not think they pursued that, and hit a dead end? The point is, they had the highest offer. A whole bunch of people keep throwing out "JR won't pony up free agents!!" He has, and I think he still will. It's a dumb narrative. He had a two-headed hydra for 12 or so years, and they kept fucking up. He spends, Hahn just spent his money unwisely. Hahn was not a good GM. He could sure pull off the trade, but (and I don't know if it was KW) but he wasn't good with the plan Bs. Maybe that's why he always tried to nail his big moves early and quick, and be done by day 2 of the owners' meetings. Neither of us know if the Sox did this. That news never came out, only that their offer was higher than the Phillies’. At the end of the day, get back to me when the Sox sign a Wheeler over a Keuchel or a Harper over a Benintendi. The Sox are always a day late and a dollar short. And you can’t spend a dollar if you only have 50 cents. ? Edited June 6 by WhiteSox2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 14 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Keuchel was the very last remaining of the so-called "upper tier" FA pitchers and hadn't pitched all that great with the Braves in an abbreviated season if I remember correctly... Dallas was actually good until the sticky searches started Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 21 minutes ago, T R U said: Sir you said 15 GOOD SP prospects. Now you’ve moved the goal posts to just 15 prospects. Your specialty. And just to be clear, I stated they had 15 good prospects across 4 levels. I don't think they'll have 15 guys to pick from in 2025, but I do think they'll have a few arms hitting every year for the next 3-4 years, as they're set up. Jonathan Cannon, I think, is not a power pitcher. I think he'll start, but he'll get moved out of the way by the AA wave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 6 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Neither of us know if the Sox did this. That news never came out, only that their offer was higher than the Phillies’. At the end of the day, get back to me when the Sox sign a Wheeler over a Keuchel or a Harper over a Benintendi. The Sox are always a day late and a dollar short. And you can’t spend a dollar if you only have 50 cents. ? It was reported they had the higher offer, and nobody jumped up and said it wasn't true. As far as pursuing going higher, I'm tired of playing the "White Sox don't deserve the benefit of the doubt" game. Hahn and Reinsdorf are businessmen. I'd imagine they pursued it some, they found no movement, and moved on. They can't take 3 weeks wooing somebody who won't be wooed. The problem was there was a whole FA market and a whole trade market, and they put their eggs in one basket. It didn't come to fruition. You can't spend a dollar if the store owner suddenly doesn't want to sell his wares. But you can't find that out at 4:59, and all the stores close at 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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