WhiteSox2023 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 4 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Then the correct sentence would be "Reinsdorf won't spend on the top players in the game." When they're competitive, they're top 10 in payrolls. I prefer to say, Reinsdorf lets his GM spread out money on a bunch of mediocre free agents that aren’t difference-makers. It’s the worst strategy ever. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 12 minutes ago, WestEddy said: It isn't. Reinsdorf won't drop $500m on a player. That is correct. In 2022, their team payroll was 6th highest in MLB. Randomly picking a year out of their last competitive window - 2008. 5th highest. I get the narrative, Reinsdorf won't sign the huge contract. The lie is in saying "he won't spend money", because that's demonstrably untrue. It has quite literally been demonstrated by the teams actions. The are at the very bottom of MLB when it comes to chasing premium talent with big contracts. Having a lot of middle of the road contracts on a larger payroll team is not the same thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 6 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: I prefer to say, Reinsdorf lets his GM spread out money on a bunch of mediocre free agents that aren’t difference-makers. It’s the worst strategy ever. Great. I agree. He spends. Just not wisely. It's frustrating, yes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: It has quite literally been demonstrated by the teams actions. The are at the very bottom of MLB when it comes to chasing premium talent with big contracts. Having a lot of middle of the road contracts on a larger payroll team is not the same thing. Exactly. $75 million is no longer “top player” money. It’s not even premium talent money. It’s more like Tier C free agent money these days. It’s how you end up with guys like Keuchel and Benintendi and looking to eat the rest of their contracts after a year or two. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: It has quite literally been demonstrated by the teams actions. The are at the very bottom of MLB when it comes to chasing premium talent with big contracts. Having a lot of middle of the road contracts on a larger payroll team is not the same thing. You're right. And I agree with that assessment. Reinsdorf doesn't chase the top end difference makers. But he will spend a bunch of payroll on Joe Kelley and Benintendi to suck. He spends money. He's had an idiot GM who was too clever by half, and a bro-dude VP who had to get his pet players years after they were good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 1 minute ago, WestEddy said: You're right. And I agree with that assessment. Reinsdorf doesn't chase the top end difference makers. But he will spend a bunch of payroll on Joe Kelley and Benintendi to suck. He spends money. He's had an idiot GM who was too clever by half, and a bro-dude VP who had to get his pet players years after they were good. And now to go to step 2, the Sox aren't going to be the team that gets finishers by free agency. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 40 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Sorry I was wrong. I think I got him mixed up with Robert Jr. I just doing it from memory which isn't isn't always correct. Like I'm not even 100 % sure Robert is with Boras. Robert switched to Boras at some point in the last year or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 4 minutes ago, WestEddy said: You're right. And I agree with that assessment. Reinsdorf doesn't chase the top end difference makers. But he will spend a bunch of payroll on Joe Kelley and Benintendi to suck. He spends money. He's had an idiot GM who was too clever by half, and a bro-dude VP who had to get his pet players years after they were good. It also matches Reinsdorf’s feelings about the players association having too much power in the game and thinking that individual players make too much money via free agency. He has such a grudge because of this that he refuses to pay out a big deal to a star player and would rather go the route of paying a few guys the same amount as one true difference-maker. It almost always ends up in wasted money, but he is too stubborn to admit it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 JR allowed Hahn to push the total payroll close to $200M, but the team has never signed a contract for $100M. JR will only spend cumulatively on a bunch of small contracts. He will not sign high dollar AAVs for multiple years, especially not for pitching. 5/$75M is tops, and that guy turned out to be a dud, so we're never seeing anything close to that ever again from JR. All of Hahn's bullpen spending was short term. Even his pre-Arb guys had under 5 years guaranteed before the options started kicking in. Point is, JR simply won't sign high dollar long term deals. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 1 minute ago, Tnetennba said: JR allowed Hahn to push the total payroll close to $200M, but the team has never signed a contract for $100M. JR will only spend cumulatively on a bunch of small contracts. He will not sign high dollar AAVs for multiple years, especially not for pitching. 5/$75M is tops, and that guy turned out to be a dud, so we're never seeing anything close to that ever again from JR. All of Hahn's bullpen spending was short term. Even his pre-Arb guys had under 5 years guaranteed before the options started kicking in. Point is, JR simply won't sign high dollar long term deals. This. We all joke that Hahn loved signing relievers but this is likely the reason he did sign so many. The dollar range of contracts Hahn was approved to offer was probably in the range of a non-closing relievers, so he just tried to advantage of the free agent players he could actually sign in his price range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 5 minutes ago, Tnetennba said: JR allowed Hahn to push the total payroll close to $200M, but the team has never signed a contract for $100M. JR will only spend cumulatively on a bunch of small contracts. He will not sign high dollar AAVs for multiple years, especially not for pitching. 5/$75M is tops, and that guy turned out to be a dud, so we're never seeing anything close to that ever again from JR. All of Hahn's bullpen spending was short term. Even his pre-Arb guys had under 5 years guaranteed before the options started kicking in. Point is, JR simply won't sign high dollar long term deals. If you want to use inflation as an example, the Sox signed Albert Belle to a 5/$55 deal in November of 1996. Even if you adjusted that deal not using baseball salary inflation, but using just regular old inflation, that deal would be 5/$108 million today. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 1 minute ago, WhiteSox2023 said: This. We all joke that Hahn loved signing relievers but this is likely the reason he did sign so many. The dollar range of contracts Hahn was approved to offer was probably in the range of a non-closing relievers, so he just tried to advantage of the free agent players he could actually sign in his price range. It's such a horrible allocation of resources, though. They would have been better off just not spending that money on relievers and the Melky Cabreras of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 10 minutes ago, Tnetennba said: JR allowed Hahn to push the total payroll close to $200M, but the team has never signed a contract for $100M. JR will only spend cumulatively on a bunch of small contracts. He will not sign high dollar AAVs for multiple years, especially not for pitching. 5/$75M is tops, and that guy turned out to be a dud, so we're never seeing anything close to that ever again from JR. All of Hahn's bullpen spending was short term. Even his pre-Arb guys had under 5 years guaranteed before the options started kicking in. Point is, JR simply won't sign high dollar long term deals. What was the offer Wheeler turned down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalChiSox Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 16 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: This. We all joke that Hahn loved signing relievers but this is likely the reason he did sign so many. The dollar range of contracts Hahn was approved to offer was probably in the range of a non-closing relievers, so he just tried to advantage of the free agent players he could actually sign in his price range. I think Tony wanted all the relievers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 19 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: This. We all joke that Hahn loved signing relievers but this is likely the reason he did sign so many. The dollar range of contracts Hahn was approved to offer was probably in the range of a non-closing relievers, so he just tried to advantage of the free agent players he could actually sign in his price range. It kind of makes sense. If the Sox weren't going to spend on top end offense, or top end starting pitching, you might as well try to build a pen that could run 5 to 6 inning game instead of needing starters to go 6-7 to avoid your crappy middle relief. Of course today the Sox have neither starters, nor a pen who can hold a lead, so big progress on that front. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 17 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: What was the offer Wheeler turned down? I think 5/$125m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 18 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: What was the offer Wheeler turned down? SoxMachine wrote about it this month https://soxmachine.com/2024/03/zack-wheeler-white-sox-retrospective/#:~:text=Reports were that the White,to have extended relatives nearby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 4 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: The Sox won’t be likely to improve if they keep them either, unless we get a new owner soon that throws around money in free agency. I wonder how many teams in baseball approach roster construction and paying players the same way as the Sox. I find it absolutely amazing that the Sox have been unable to compete in the Central not only historically but specifically since tank became a popular four-letter word in MLB. Sox can't even compete with fellow paupers KC, Detroit, Cleveland and Minnie. Certainly their plan is better than our plan. I know KC has had some horrendous records but not Minnie for the most part. What do they got that we ain't got?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: And now to go to step 2, the Sox aren't going to be the team that gets finishers by free agency. Well, if by “finishers” you mean vets at the end of their careers… ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: If you want to use inflation as an example, the Sox signed Albert Belle to a 5/$55 deal in November of 1996. Even if you adjusted that deal not using baseball salary inflation, but using just regular old inflation, that deal would be 5/$108 million today. 5/$108 isn't even close to top dollar for a marquee free agent today, and Belle was the closest to a marquee free agent they've ever signed. Nearly 30 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 23 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Well, if by “finishers” you mean vets at the end of their careers… ? "Finished" is the term. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 3 hours ago, greg775 said: I wonder how many teams in baseball approach roster construction and paying players the same way as the Sox. I find it absolutely amazing that the Sox have been unable to compete in the Central not only historically but specifically since tank became a popular four-letter word in MLB. Sox can't even compete with fellow paupers KC, Detroit, Cleveland and Minnie. Certainly their plan is better than our plan. I know KC has had some horrendous records but not Minnie for the most part. What do they got that we ain't got?? Owners that don't think they know it all when it comes to baseball. They have hired some good front office types (especially Cleveland) as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 6 hours ago, WestEddy said: These are two different arguments. "Reinsdorf won't pay free agents" is not true. In this situation, they offered more to Wheeler, and he went elsewhere. The other is "Hahn can't close a deal", which I don't believe is correct, either. In the Wheeler situation, the reported story was the wife threw down, and that's it. Nobody disputed the reporting, so either it's correct, or there's a worse version that both parties believe the wife story covers up well enough. Jake Peavy waived a no trade to come to the Sox. As I've said, the Sox have to overpay, perhaps considerably, to land a free agent. Now that may be a couple million to a low of medium FA, that could be twenty or forty million to a premier free agent. No wonder we don't land them. I don't think it's a worse version. It was a family decision. However *they* want to spin it doesn't really matter. No one disputes it because it doesn't matter and allows everyone to save face. And thank you for that example. Jake is a perfect example of a player on a decline who lands on our roster. Former this and that. I think we agree it's a tough sell as the Sox GM. Players aren't exactly lining up hoping for a call from Getz. And it won't any easier until there are huge changes, starting in the chairman's office. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 11 minutes ago, Texsox said: As I've said, the Sox have to overpay, perhaps considerably, to land a free agent. Now that may be a couple million to a low of medium FA, that could be twenty or forty million to a premier free agent. No wonder we don't land them. I don't think it's a worse version. It was a family decision. However *they* want to spin it doesn't really matter. No one disputes it because it doesn't matter and allows everyone to save face. And thank you for that example. Jake is a perfect example of a player on a decline who lands on our roster. Former this and that. I think we agree it's a tough sell as the Sox GM. Players aren't exactly lining up hoping for a call from Getz. And it won't any easier until there are huge changes, starting in the chairman's office. I think Benintendi was probably worth 3-4 years when the Sox signed him, and they had to go to a 5th just to close. They had to up their offer to Fedde, too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 10 hours ago, WestEddy said: I think Benintendi was probably worth 3-4 years when the Sox signed him, and they had to go to a 5th just to close. They had to up their offer to Fedde, too. The hardest thing to sell is a bad version of a product that others have readily available. I would argue is even hard to sell Chicago to players from outside the Midwest. Those that want year round warm temps are getting south. NY and LA have better side money potential and equally good night life. The AL Central is a boring division without a marque. State taxes are high and that's half your games. Selling time shares in Branson may be easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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