Can the sox have the best farm system in baseball after the deadline

[Dominikk85]

The sox currently have a shallow System in depth but they have 5-6 top100 prospects depending on the outlet.

Usually the top farm system has around 7-9 top 100 guys, for example at the height of their rebuild in 2018 the sox had 9 top100 by fangraphs.

I think with a good deadline the sox could get there again. Crochet and Robert could add 2 top100 guys each, that would put them at 9-10 top 100 guys and a similar situation they where in 2018/19. Also trading guys like fedde can add some nice depth to the 10-20 range in the system

 

I know the sox botched it big time last time and fell apart in a huge way but I guess the bright side was they still had some tradeable young guys left so they won't need a huge tank job for 5 years to bring the system back up to speed.

Hopefully they will do a better job develop that young guys and surround them by better free agents but the re-rebuild could go quicker than expected, almost like that the padres did 7 or 8 years ago when preller traded away the farm, failed and then quickly changed course and rebuilt the system.

This will he a bad season with likely more than 100 losses, maybe even 110 but at least the rebuild looks to be on track.

[The Mighty Mite]

4 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

The sox currently have a shallow System in depth but they have 5-6 top100 prospects depending on the outlet.

Usually the top farm system has around 7-9 top 100 guys, for example at the height of their rebuild in 2018 the sox had 9 top100 by fangraphs.

I think with a good deadline the sox could get there again. Crochet and Robert could add 2 top100 guys each, that would put them at 9-10 top 100 guys and a similar situation they where in 2018/19. Also trading guys like fedde can add some nice depth to the 10-20 range in the system

 

I know the sox botched it big time last time and fell apart in a huge way but I guess the bright side was they still had some tradeable young guys left so they won't need a huge tank job for 5 years to bring the system back up to speed.

Hopefully they will do a better job develop that young guys and surround them by better free agents but the re-rebuild could go quicker than expected, almost like that the padres did 7 or 8 years ago when preller traded away the farm, failed and then quickly changed course and rebuilt the system.

This will he a bad season with likely more than 100 losses, maybe even 110 but at least the rebuild looks to be on track.

As I said earlier, Crochet and Robert if he can stay healthy are guys you want to build around, the key is JR having an epiphany and for a change spending some money.

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

The sox currently have a shallow System in depth but they have 5-6 top100 prospects depending on the outlet.

Usually the top farm system has around 7-9 top 100 guys, for example at the height of their rebuild in 2018 the sox had 9 top100 by fangraphs.

I think with a good deadline the sox could get there again. Crochet and Robert could add 2 top100 guys each, that would put them at 9-10 top 100 guys and a similar situation they where in 2018/19. Also trading guys like fedde can add some nice depth to the 10-20 range in the system

 

I know the sox botched it big time last time and fell apart in a huge way but I guess the bright side was they still had some tradeable young guys left so they won't need a huge tank job for 5 years to bring the system back up to speed.

Hopefully they will do a better job develop that young guys and surround them by better free agents but the re-rebuild could go quicker than expected, almost like that the padres did 7 or 8 years ago when preller traded away the farm, failed and then quickly changed course and rebuilt the system.

This will he a bad season with likely more than 100 losses, maybe even 110 but at least the rebuild looks to be on track.

Only if they trade Robert.  I’m still skeptical that someone will go all in on Crochet given the massive workload risk.  I think he’s a dude you’re probably better off selling in the offseason.  I’m still optimistic that Fedde will bring in a top 100 prospect, but that isn’t going to vault us to the top of the pack, even if we deal a bunch of the other less exciting pieces we have.

[WBWSF]

8 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

As I said earlier, Crochet and Robert if he can stay healthy are guys you want to build around, the key is JR having an epiphany and for a change spending some money.

I  wonder if Getz is trying to sign Crochet.

[Timmy U]

I think the Sox could end up with the deepest farm system in the game. They have 4 high picks and could add 6 or 7 more players onto their top 30, but I still don't think it'll be the best overall farm system because of lack of impact.  Schultz has a shot at being a top top top guy, but they really lack a potential superstar bat and it's unlikely whoever they draft this year will be viewed that way immediately. And for sure no one is trading you Jackson Holliday or someone like that. So, I'd say they'll be Top Ten.

[caulfield12]

20 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

I think the Sox could end up with the deepest farm system in the game. They have 4 high picks and could add 6 or 7 more players onto their top 30, but I still don't think it'll be the best overall farm system because of lack of impact.  Schultz has a shot at being a top top top guy, but they really lack a potential superstar bat and it's unlikely whoever they draft this year will be viewed that way immediately. And for sure no one is trading you Jackson Holliday or someone like that. So, I'd say they'll be Top Ten.

Right now, there's nobody beyond Montgomery that screams "average to above average major leaguer/3B", and that's not even a sure thing.

Top 100ish guys like Ramos and Colas are even LESSER "sure things" comparatively.

Quero MIGHT be an "average" major league catcher at some point 3-5 years from now.

Baldwin has been the lone breakout offensively, but he and Gonzalez (hopefully a return to norm or mean in 2024) still have skeptics who project utility guys more than a 2-3 fWAR middle infielders.

Zavala is a massive wild card.  If you look at the millions that SD has spent in Latin America in the past decade plus under Preller, their track record has been pretty abysmal in terms of actually developing those position prospects into big leaguers as opposed to trading them. Stateside, CJ Abrams started out this season in WASH looking like an All-Star and James Wood LOOKS like he will be a stud, but who really knows?  Color me skeptical until proven wrong.

 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Fangraphs already has them at #12. After they trade the vets, including Crochet and Robert, they should add ~$150M in value. That’ll put them in the top 3 at worst and when combined with the high draft picks next month very likely the top system overall per their valuation this coming offseason. 

https://www.fangraphs.com/prospects/farm-system-rankings?sortcol=0&sortdir=asc

[Backwash07]

29 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

I think the Sox could end up with the deepest farm system in the game. They have 4 high picks and could add 6 or 7 more players onto their top 30, but I still don't think it'll be the best overall farm system because of lack of impact.  Schultz has a shot at being a top top top guy, but they really lack a potential superstar bat and it's unlikely whoever they draft this year will be viewed that way immediately. And for sure no one is trading you Jackson Holliday or someone like that. So, I'd say they'll be Top Ten.

Timing is everything. Do you think if the Sox receive fair trade offers for say Robert, Crochet, Fedde, Kopech, that it would be better to do it before the draft, after the draft at the trade deadline, or it really does not matter? Sox execs probably have a good idea of what they plan to do demographics wise for the draft, obviously things can change on the fly. They can control what they want slightly easier in trades. I am really not sure what makes best sense, but it would be nice build quality depth in the system. Thoughts? 

[Timmy U]

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Fangraphs already has them at #12. After they trade the vets, including Crochet and Robert, they should add ~$150M in value. That’ll put them in the top 3 at worst and when combined with the high draft picks next month very likely the top system overall per their valuation this coming offseason. 

https://www.fangraphs.com/prospects/farm-system-rankings?sortcol=0&sortdir=asc

Thanks. I think you may be right. A lot of that value is a bulk of 50/45+/40 players who may or may not actually help them. Also Cleveland is one spot behind them, holds the first pick, has a comp pick and could add like 5 high bonus players in the draft. Should be interesting.

[Timmy U]

6 minutes ago, Backwash07 said:

Timing is everything. Do you think if the Sox receive fair trade offers for say Robert, Crochet, Fedde, Kopech, that it would be better to do it before the draft, after the draft at the trade deadline, or it really does not matter? Sox execs probably have a good idea of what they plan to do demographics wise for the draft, obviously things can change on the fly. They can control what they want slightly easier in trades. I am really not sure what makes best sense, but it would be nice build quality depth in the system. Thoughts? 

I'm not sure timing's gonna matter here that much. Generally, teams wait until after the draft in part because their scouts/execs are busy with the amateurs. Also, psychologically, I don't think a team adding 20 draft picks hurts when they consider surrendering 3 or 4 guys. But as to the return, all the teams have formulas as to what a guy is worth. Lately, teams have tried to make that payment more in quantity than quality. Sox already have a lot of quantity, so it may be hard for them to match up. Unless of course Reinsdorf just wants to get rid of Robert's salary, in which case, they'll get a bunch of 45/50 guys.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

They could be the only team that doesn't have a viable MLB player. 

[wrathofhahn]

Part of this is dependent on callups our and theirs. As it relates to young talent which is better barometer. There is no way we are top ten. MLB.com has us ranked 20th as a farm system and we have almost no young controllable talent at the ML level. We'd have to pull of multiple massive trades getting back top prospects not top 100 prospects but top prospects like we did in our prior rebuild to accomplish even being in the top 10.

A big reason for that is the Padres deal. We didn't get Salas or any of their top prospects. MLB.com actually has them ranked 4th. So yeah I don't know why people are expecting us to get a top prospect when we didnt for Cease. Why would Robert command a huge package with the way he's played and getting injured? Trading players is all about timing you sell high and buy low. We sell low on guys like Cease and buy high on washed FA. It's why we are where we are.

 

 

Edited June 9 by wrathofhahn

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

14 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

Part of this is dependent on callups our and theirs. As it relates to young talent which is better barometer. There is no way we are top ten. MLB.com has us ranked 20th as a farm system and we have almost no young controllable talent at the ML level. We'd have to pull of multiple massive trades getting back top prospects not top 100 prospects but top prospects like we did in our prior rebuild to accomplish even being in the top 10.

A big reason for that is the Padres deal. We didn't get Salas or any of their top prospects. MLB.com actually has them ranked 4th. So yeah I don't know why people are expecting us to get a top prospect when we didnt for Cease. Why would Robert command a huge package with the way he's played and getting injured? Trading players is all about timing you sell high and buy low. We sell low on guys like Cease and buy high on washed FA. It's why we are where we are.

 

 

Mlb.com about as good at scouting and prospect rankings as caufield is at citing sources.

[Dominikk85]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Mite said:

As I said earlier, Crochet and Robert if he can stay healthy are guys you want to build around, the key is JR having an epiphany and for a change spending some money.

They are both really injury prone though and the injury proneness of core players like Robert, Eloy, moncada, Anderson was one of the big issues why the current core failed.

Maybe it would be good to trade everyone and hope you get more lucky with the health of the next core.

[southsider2k5]

They can, and have a desperate need to get that level of talent into the system.  But more importantly it is the drafting and development that really needs to step up as that is what has killed this franchise for decades.

[wegner]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

They can, and have a desperate need to get that level of talent into the system.  But more importantly it is the drafting and development that really needs to step up as that is what has killed this franchise for decades.

Luckily, that guy that used to be in charge of player development is no longer in that position.

[southsider2k5]

11 minutes ago, wegner said:

Luckily, that guy that used to be in charge of player development is no longer in that position.

?

[GreenSox]

No.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

Part of this is dependent on callups our and theirs. As it relates to young talent which is better barometer. There is no way we are top ten. MLB.com has us ranked 20th as a farm system and we have almost no young controllable talent at the ML level. We'd have to pull of multiple massive trades getting back top prospects not top 100 prospects but top prospects like we did in our prior rebuild to accomplish even being in the top 10.

A big reason for that is the Padres deal. We didn't get Salas or any of their top prospects. MLB.com actually has them ranked 4th. So yeah I don't know why people are expecting us to get a top prospect when we didnt for Cease. Why would Robert command a huge package with the way he's played and getting injured? Trading players is all about timing you sell high and buy low. We sell low on guys like Cease and buy high on washed FA. It's why we are where we are.

 

 

Not to mention Robert's contract isn't exactly a bargain if he's not producing at least in the 3+ fWAR range, but more optimistically 4-5.

And that's obviously based on fragility he's demonstrated in the beginning of his career, with last year being his only close to complete season.

 

As someone else mentioned, you're going to need to get ANOTHER piece like a Fedde, Pham, Sheets, Vaughn...whatever that acquiring team perceives as being a weakness down the stretch run.

Tempting as Robert and Crochet being combined would be a dream acquisition for any GM, only a handful of teams could actually pull that off, and only 2-3 likely have the kind of risk tolerance, stones and job security in the GM/Executive suit to go for it with a move like that would instantly transform your team into a top WS contender IF IF IF those two guys can both stay on the field/mound.

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

They can, and have a desperate need to get that level of talent into the system.  But more importantly it is the drafting and development that really needs to step up as that is what has killed this franchise for decades.

I could not care less if the White Sox have the top ranked system. I need them to crank out Major League players on a regular basis and have the system provide actual depth for the big league club.  Top 100 prospects are great and all, but I'd rather they avoid a repeat of the last failed rebuild with a top heavy system that leaves them with nothing after the best prospects graduate.

[southsider2k5]

10 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

I could not care less if the White Sox have the top ranked system. I need them to crank out Major League players on a regular basis and have the system provide actual depth for the big league club.  Top 100 prospects are great and all, but I'd rather they avoid a repeat of the last failed rebuild with a top heavy system that leaves them with nothing after the best prospects graduate.

It's nearly impossible to make waves when you MiLB strategy is only to trade for guys from your failed majors team, and a complete inability to draft and develop. 

[wrathofhahn]

2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Mlb.com about as good at scouting and prospect rankings as caufield is at citing sources.

I consider Jim Callis to be pretty reputable but putting that aside even someone who put our farm system in the top 10 K Law said he considered it a mediocre system and the fact we were top 10 said more about the rest of the teams rather than the state of our actual farm.

He is higher on Thorpe than I am. I am not a fan of soft tossers dominating the minors with high chase rates we'll see Tues I guess.

Edited June 9 by wrathofhahn

[Dominikk85]

4 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

I could not care less if the White Sox have the top ranked system. I need them to crank out Major League players on a regular basis and have the system provide actual depth for the big league club.  Top 100 prospects are great and all, but I'd rather they avoid a repeat of the last failed rebuild with a top heavy system that leaves them with nothing after the best prospects graduate.

A top farm system is not a guarantee for anything but there was an article that showed that most teams who have the top ranked farm system tend to do well, I.e multiple playoff runs in the 6 to 7 years after they are Ranked best farm. Unfortunately I don't find that article anymore.

Even the sox after they were ranked best farm around 2018 did make the playoffs twice and that was with a historical amount of bad luck (frequent long injuries to stars) and Bad decisions (TLR, free agency).

So having the top or at least a top3 farm definitely would be a good start and hopefully there is a bit more luck and better decision making the next time

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

I could not care less if the White Sox have the top ranked system. I need them to crank out Major League players on a regular basis and have the system provide actual depth for the big league club.  Top 100 prospects are great and all, but I'd rather they avoid a repeat of the last failed rebuild with a top heavy system that leaves them with nothing after the best prospects graduate.

Well, that and completely mistiming the supplementing with FA's, by overpaying for the likes of Keuchel and Grandal (they peaked way too early), then you have Lynn extension, the Liam Hendriks deal, let's see...ALL the RELIEVERS, lol and finally Benintendi.

Every single move but Liam a complete misstep, and even that one somehow managed to completely blow up in their faces when Liam went down to cancer/injury.

Rodon/Anderson either leaving the team without a Q0 or completely falling apart, along with never figuring out how to get through to Reynaldo Lopez.

[Tnetennba]

19 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

A top farm system is not a guarantee for anything but there was an article that showed that most teams who have the top ranked farm system tend to do well, I.e multiple playoff runs in the 6 to 7 years after they are Ranked best farm. Unfortunately I don't find that article anymore.

Even the sox after they were ranked best farm around 2018 did make the playoffs twice and that was with a historical amount of bad luck (frequent long injuries to stars) and Bad decisions (TLR, free agency).

So having the top or at least a top3 farm definitely would be a good start and hopefully there is a bit more luck and better decision making the next time

They have to drastically alter how they operate for a top system to matter. If there’s nothing behind the wave of top talent, and they don’t augment the major league roster with quality signings, we are in for a repeat of the last failed rebuild.