caulfield12 Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 21 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said: A top farm system is not a guarantee for anything but there was an article that showed that most teams who have the top ranked farm system tend to do well, I.e multiple playoff runs in the 6 to 7 years after they are Ranked best farm. Unfortunately I don't find that article anymore. Even the sox after they were ranked best farm around 2018 did make the playoffs twice and that was with a historical amount of bad luck (frequent long injuries to stars) and Bad decisions (TLR, free agency). So having the top or at least a top3 farm definitely would be a good start and hopefully there is a bit more luck and better decision making the next time Every team that had a BA Top 5 farm system made the playoffs within 3-5 years or something like that in terms of breakthroughs. Recently, you have the Padres, Blue Jays, White Sox, to name just a few, but all of them are now in various phases of struggle...SD built two nearly top 5 systems (I think they were around 5-6 and might now be down closer to 8-9-10 after the Cease deal was consummated and Leodalis deVrieze coming out a bit slowly in A ball at age 17. Of course, SD had to cut almost $100 million from payroll after their owner passed away and favorable RSN/broadcast rights deal in such a small media market. Pretty much the complete opposite of the success of the Astros/Royals/Cubs in the previous set of rebuilds a decade earlier. Of course, the problem in the AL Central is that the Guardians still will have an arguably stronger farm system after this June's draft than the White Sox...especially if Robert and/or Crochet are not traded. Detroit, did they ever reach Top 5 farm system status at the height of their rebuild years maybe 2-3 years ago when they had all the topline pitching prospects as well as Riley Greene coming up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zisk Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 34 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Every team that had a BA Top 5 farm system made the playoffs within 3-5 years or something like that in terms of breakthroughs. Recently, you have the Padres, Blue Jays, White Sox, to name just a few, but all of them are now in various phases of struggle...SD built two nearly top 5 systems (I think they were around 5-6 and might now be down closer to 8-9-10 after the Cease deal was consummated and Leodalis deVrieze coming out a bit slowly in A ball at age 17. Of course, SD had to cut almost $100 million from payroll after their owner passed away and favorable RSN/broadcast rights deal in such a small media market. Pretty much the complete opposite of the success of the Astros/Royals/Cubs in the previous set of rebuilds a decade earlier. Of course, the problem in the AL Central is that the Guardians still will have an arguably stronger farm system after this June's draft than the White Sox...especially if Robert and/or Crochet are not traded. Detroit, did they ever reach Top 5 farm system status at the height of their rebuild years maybe 2-3 years ago when they had all the topline pitching prospects as well as Riley Greene coming up? Go have another glass of Bergin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloydBannister1983 Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 1 hour ago, Dominikk85 said: A top farm system is not a guarantee for anything but there was an article that showed that most teams who have the top ranked farm system tend to do well, I.e multiple playoff runs in the 6 to 7 years after they are Ranked best farm. Unfortunately I don't find that article anymore. Even the sox after they were ranked best farm around 2018 did make the playoffs twice and that was with a historical amount of bad luck (frequent long injuries to stars) and Bad decisions (TLR, free agency). So having the top or at least a top3 farm definitely would be a good start and hopefully there is a bit more luck and better decision making the next time One playoff appearance in a real season and an embarrassing playoff exit is no reason for optimism. The data we have show that the White Sox cannot develop players or keep them healthy. There’s no reason to believe that has changed in the last six years. In fact all the evidence seems to support that they have regressed in both these areas. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksnort Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 1 hour ago, Dominikk85 said: A top farm system is not a guarantee for anything but there was an article that showed that most teams who have the top ranked farm system tend to do well, I.e multiple playoff runs in the 6 to 7 years after they are Ranked best farm. Unfortunately I don't find that article anymore. Even the sox after they were ranked best farm around 2018 did make the playoffs twice and that was with a historical amount of bad luck (frequent long injuries to stars) and Bad decisions (TLR, free agency). So having the top or at least a top3 farm definitely would be a good start and hopefully there is a bit more luck and better decision making the next time And the pandemic smack in the middle of it all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 53 minutes ago, zisk said: Go have another glass of Bergin. What is Bergin? Did have one Corona last night lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 1 minute ago, ScootsMcGoots said: And the pandemic smack in the middle of it all More excuses fans can use looking back at the history of the Sox years from now, just like 1994. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksnort Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 (edited) The White Sox, while they should be behaving like the Dodgers, Yankees, Cubs and Mets in terms of player aquisitions, won't because of the owner, so they need to learn how to win like Milwaukee, St. Louis, Atlanta, Cleveland, Philadelphia and Baltimore. But they won't, because of the owner. Getz is not the problem. Grifol is not the problem. They are symptoms of the problem. Jerry is the problem, and things just will not change until he relinquishes his power to the throne. Edited June 9 by ScootsMcGoots 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksnort Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 Just now, caulfield12 said: More excuses fans can use looking back at the history of the Sox years from now, just like 1994. I mean, it's not an excuse. It was bad luck that it happened right when the team was supposed to break out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 10 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said: As I said earlier, Crochet and Robert if he can stay healthy are guys you want to build around, the key is JR having an epiphany and for a change spending some money. No. We need to multiply any time possible. We need to be the Rays. 2 years left? Traded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 50 minutes ago, ScootsMcGoots said: The White Sox, while they should be behaving like the Dodgers, Yankees, Cubs and Mets in terms of player aquisitions, won't because of the owner, so they need to learn how to win like Milwaukee, St. Louis, Atlanta, Cleveland, Philadelphia and Baltimore. But they won't, because of the owner. Getz is not the problem. Grifol is not the problem. They are symptoms of the problem. Jerry is the problem, and things just will not change until he relinquishes his power to the throne. Getz is also the problem if he made false and overly optimistic promises of turning this thing around given all the budget/resource restraints apparently placed upon him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 12 hours ago, Dominikk85 said: The sox currently have a shallow System in depth but they have 5-6 top100 prospects depending on the outlet. Usually the top farm system has around 7-9 top 100 guys, for example at the height of their rebuild in 2018 the sox had 9 top100 by fangraphs. I think with a good deadline the sox could get there again. Crochet and Robert could add 2 top100 guys each, that would put them at 9-10 top 100 guys and a similar situation they where in 2018/19. Also trading guys like fedde can add some nice depth to the 10-20 range in the system I know the sox botched it big time last time and fell apart in a huge way but I guess the bright side was they still had some tradeable young guys left so they won't need a huge tank job for 5 years to bring the system back up to speed. Hopefully they will do a better job develop that young guys and surround them by better free agents but the re-rebuild could go quicker than expected, almost like that the padres did 7 or 8 years ago when preller traded away the farm, failed and then quickly changed course and rebuilt the system. This will he a bad season with likely more than 100 losses, maybe even 110 but at least the rebuild looks to be on track. Doing this again will result in bumps in the rankings, yes. As we've already seen, it won't matter without support in the form of good drafting and investment in player development. The first one we've yet to see if this regime can do, but we already know Reinsdorf won't invest in player development, he had a chance to in the last rebuild, failed, and in part caused the rebuild to fail as a result. Expect no less this time around. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejoesox Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 a top rated farm system doesn't really hold much weight in this organization, they can't develop prospects for s%*# and haven't been able to for literal decades. they were more competitive when they traded away prospects for major leaguers 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 (edited) 2 hours ago, Dam8610 said: Doing this again will result in bumps in the rankings, yes. And that's why Getz will 100 percent trade Crochet, Robert and gulp, Eloy. And Kopech (to some team desperate to think he might be able to close with proper coaching). Getz will be praised by fans and media for the tank job. Do any of you tire of me expressing complete displeasure at the Sox tanking again? It's the only subject that has my attention (cept maybe DeJong's out of nowhere power and Robert's sleekness). -- I was talking to my lifelong Sox friend. He told me he has divorced himself from the team and when I told him bout trading Robert and Crochet he laughed and acknowledged the Sox will be bottom feeders a long long time to come. Who cares if Sox farm system will be ranked top 10 after the bloodletting? Not me. Edited June 10 by greg775 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 (edited) 4 hours ago, ScootsMcGoots said: I mean, it's not an excuse. It was bad luck that it happened right when the team was supposed to break out. It wasn’t really a bad break considering the Sox made the playoffs due to the COVID-shortened season. They don’t make the playoffs in 2020 if it was a full 162 game season. Their rotation was decimated after those 60 regular season games. Edited June 10 by WhiteSox2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominikk85 Posted June 10 Author Share Posted June 10 3 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: It wasn’t really a bad break considering the Sox made the playoffs due to the COVID-shortened season. They don’t make the playoffs in 2020 if it was a full 162 game season. Their rotation was decimated after those 60 regular season games. I wonder if the failure to develop vaughn was related to covid though. Imo vaughn was rushed to the majors and probably partly because there was no milb season 2020. They probably were hoping to develop him enough at the alt site training complex but it obviously didn't work. We don't know if a full 2020 milb season could have developed vaughn better and of course the sox still could have let him play out 2021 in the minors and see if they can improve important KPIs like chase rate and ability to hit fly balls to the pull side before calling him up but covid didn't make it easier. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 1 hour ago, Dominikk85 said: I wonder if the failure to develop vaughn was related to covid though. Imo vaughn was rushed to the majors and probably partly because there was no milb season 2020. They probably were hoping to develop him enough at the alt site training complex but it obviously didn't work. We don't know if a full 2020 milb season could have developed vaughn better and of course the sox still could have let him play out 2021 in the minors and see if they can improve important KPIs like chase rate and ability to hit fly balls to the pull side before calling him up but covid didn't make it easier. Without Covid, Burger would have probably ended up completely giving up on his career and we wouldn't have been able to trade him for a quasi-first round talent in Eder. That's another way to look at it, instead of two busted draft picks. Of course, two top five drafts with virtually nothing to show for it (at least where things stand now) is a killer. And then letting Anderson's value erode down to nothing after being an All-Star and Rodon escaping without a QO. Obviously, no bueno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socksless joe Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 20 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said: As I said earlier, Crochet and Robert if he can stay healthy are guys you want to build around, the key is JR having an epitaph and for a new owner spending some money. FIFY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbydanks Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiks12 Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 best talent with the worst development Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 On 6/9/2024 at 11:13 PM, greg775 said: And that's why Getz will 100 percent trade Crochet, Robert and gulp, Eloy. And Kopech (to some team desperate to think he might be able to close with proper coaching). Getz will be praised by fans and media for the tank job. Do any of you tire of me expressing complete displeasure at the Sox tanking again? It's the only subject that has my attention (cept maybe DeJong's out of nowhere power and Robert's sleekness). -- I was talking to my lifelong Sox friend. He told me he has divorced himself from the team and when I told him bout trading Robert and Crochet he laughed and acknowledged the Sox will be bottom feeders a long long time to come. Who cares if Sox farm system will be ranked top 10 after the bloodletting? Not me. Greg, I'd be right there with you in not wanting the team to tank if I felt it was a strategy that would yield positive results. Unfortunately, thanks to the limitations imposed by an out of touch billionaire who doesn't have the common decency to sell the team or die, this organization is starved of resources to the point that the only way they will have to stockpile both the quantity and quality of talent they will need to compete with other MLB franchises is to trade away the quality talent they have in MLB for a quantity of quality prospects that hopefully will all develop to their most positive outcomes, leaving the team with 60-70% of a major league roster, including all of the star level talent, on discounted contracts, which will allow the organization to fill in the remaining 6-10 players with contracts they're willing to sign players to. Is it realistic? No, but it's honestly the best hope of fielding a competitive team that we as fans have as long as said out of touch billionaire is alive and has control of the organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominikk85 Posted August 13 Author Share Posted August 13 Didn't quite happen unfortunately. Hopefully Robert has a good second half and get them a haul in the off season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpton Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 4 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said: Didn't quite happen unfortunately. Hopefully Robert has a good second half and get them a haul in the off season. Which season? His second half this season has been brutal and has destroyed any hope of getting a 'haul'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 On 6/11/2024 at 9:53 PM, reiks12 said: best talent with the worst development Not even Top 10-15 in talent/potential… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominikk85 Posted August 13 Author Share Posted August 13 25 minutes ago, Chimpton said: Which season? His second half this season has been brutal and has destroyed any hope of getting a 'haul'. Maybe with a good September he can regain some value. But overall it has been a mess, sucks that he was first hurt and then bad so trade value was way down. And not being able to trade crochet wasn't great either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 On 6/9/2024 at 10:15 AM, southsider2k5 said: They can, and have a desperate need to get that level of talent into the system. But more importantly it is the drafting and development that really needs to step up as that is what has killed this franchise for decades. On 6/9/2024 at 12:36 PM, southsider2k5 said: It's nearly impossible to make waves when you MiLB strategy is only to trade for guys from your failed majors team, and a complete inability to draft and develop. Two months later, and we are still in limbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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