MLB Players' Poll: White Sox second worst org after A's

[caulfield12]

52 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Rick Hahn after the trade deadline last season. These guys really are clueless.

 

“We still have many impactful talents in Chicago. We still play in a division in which nobody has run away and hid in. Certainly, competing for the postseason is viable in 2024,” Hahn said. “In all candor, sitting here 55 minutes after the trade deadline just ended, proclaiming ‘this is how we’re going to get there in ‘24’ isn’t exactly our mission.

“Based upon what we were able to do in this year’s draft and what we’ve been able to do at the deadline, the organization is much, much stronger for ‘24 and beyond. Precisely what that looks like in terms of the big league level in ‘24, let’s get to the end of the season and assess everything.

That's exactly what has happened to the Tigers...who are one of the best fourth place teams out there now.

Royals have another huge series this week, but their playoff probability was 70%+ in recent days.   Clearly their best season in almost a decade, nine years to be exact.   And they're pretty much the 2023 Reds of 2024, one of the biggest underdog teams out there from one of the smallest markets in the game.

[Tony]

17 minutes ago, nrockway said:

This quote stuck out to me too. I've been racking my brain, who's actually playing better? Is it Jake Burger or Tim Anderson? Giolito or Hendricks? Abreu? Fat Lynn has a sub-6 ERA so I guess that's a step in the right direction. Cease has rebounded from last season but his ERA is still over a point higher than it was in 2022. 

Reynaldo Lopez is the only guy I can think of who's actually doing better, but one wonders how long that'll last. If you go back far enough, maybe Marcus Semien, but that's probably more to do with the team giving up on a 23-year-old for immediate "success". 

Basically I don't think there's anything to read into here. Players picked bad teams that are often in the news for being bad or having a lot of rules, what a concept.

Jake Diekman came to mind. Guy put up a 7.04 ERA with the Sox in 30 IP over 2022 and 2023. He went to the Rays, during the 2023 season, and put up a 2.18 ERA in 45 IP. That to me screams "We don't know what to do with this guy, but a team with a better organizational structure will" 

[T R U]

2 minutes ago, Tony said:

Jake Diekman came to mind. Guy put up a 7.04 ERA with the Sox in 30 IP over 2022 and 2023. He went to the Rays, during the 2023 season, and put up a 2.18 ERA in 45 IP. That to me screams "We don't know what to do with this guy, but a team with a better organizational structure will" 

Yep, its not so much "This player stunk with us but magically became good with them". Other organizations have the tools / personnel to find out how to use said player to their strengths or how to get the best out of them. The Diekman example is a perfect case of it.

[Milkman delivers]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

David Eckstein is literally married to a Star Wars character. Lucas' wife supposedly owns a sizable chunk of the team. Fucking embrace Star Wars, Jerry. That means embrace technology.

I knew the name of the voice actress, but I did not realize that was his wife. Learn something new every day.

[bmags]

7 minutes ago, T R U said:

Yep, its not so much "This player stunk with us but magically became good with them". Other organizations have the tools / personnel to find out how to use said player to their strengths or how to get the best out of them. The Diekman example is a perfect case of it.

eh i've never loved that case. He's a middle reliever. We made Greg Santos great.

I think it's for the most part true that players are wrong that "players thrive elsewhere", bigger issue is they crater here, but a lot of that is bad scouting mixed with bad roster management and salary limitations.

[T R U]

9 minutes ago, bmags said:

eh i've never loved that case. He's a middle reliever. We made Greg Santos great.

I think it's for the most part true that players are wrong that "players thrive elsewhere", bigger issue is they crater here, but a lot of that is bad scouting mixed with bad roster management and salary limitations.

I mean, were not talking about a guy that had a 4.00 ERA here then went to Tampa and it was 2.50.

This guy had a 7.94 ERA for us, gets DFA'd, and then less than 2 weeks later is like a completely different player.

[wrathofhahn]

We can't even be the best at being the worst.

[wrathofhahn]

53 minutes ago, Tony said:

Jake Diekman came to mind. Guy put up a 7.04 ERA with the Sox in 30 IP over 2022 and 2023. He went to the Rays, during the 2023 season, and put up a 2.18 ERA in 45 IP. That to me screams "We don't know what to do with this guy, but a team with a better organizational structure will" 

Tatis.

Samardzija

James Shields

 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, wrathofhahn said:

Tatis.

Samardzija

James Shields

 

 

 

Did James Shields ever pitch again after leaving the Sox?  Tatis is a weird one because he never actually played for them.  Yeah, he turned into a star, but it is hard to say he "improved" when he never proved here at all.

[Leonard Washington]

I think it’s more “guys coming here and forgetting how to play” than “guys leaving here and becoming better.”

[Soxfest]

It’s more JR than the organization, players know he controls culture! When JR is dirt surfing and get new owner, Sox could have a Blackhawk type resurgence. 

Edited June 10 by Soxfest

[southsider2k5]

Just out of curiosity I looked up the 23 roster.  Names of note:

Basically almost every offensive player has gotten worse since leaving the Sox while the pitching has improved by and large.

Hardly the "everyone" narrative we previously heard. 

Grandal 23 .647 OPS vs 24 .470

Andrus DNP in 24

Anderson 23 .582 OPS vs 24 .427

Jake Burger 23 w/Sox .806 OPS vs 24 .597 OPS

Seby 23 w/ Sox .511 OPS vs 24 .489

Romy 23 .585 OPS, vs 24 .651

Alberto DNP in 24

Trayce DNP in 24

Frazor DNP 24

Hasley DNP 24

Naquin DNP 24

Marisnick DNP 24

Billy Hamilton DNP 24

Jose Rodriguez DNP 24

Giolito DNP 24

Lynn 23 w/Sox 6.47 era 24 3.58 era

Cease 23 4.58 ERA vs 24 3.51 era

Graveman 23 3.48 era vs 2.42, though his FIP has actually gone up from 4.82 last year to 5.00 this year

Santos DNP 24

Bummer 23 6.79 era vs 24 3.68 (FIP difference is only 3.58 to 2.74)

ReyLo 23 w/Sox 4.29 era vs 24 1.85 era

Middleton 23 3.96 era vs 24 1.99 (though now injured)

Scholtens DNP 24

Joe Kelly 23/w Sox 4.97 era vs 24 4.73

Urena 23 4.10 era vs 3.44 era

Ramsey DNP 24

Deikman 23 w/Sox 7.94 era vs 24 3.80

Cronin 23 9.00 era vs 24 2.10

Navarro DNP 24

After that I quit...

 

 

 

 

[Quin]

10 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Just out of curiosity I looked up the 23 roster.  Names of note:

Basically almost every offensive player has gotten worse since leaving the Sox while the pitching has improved by and large.

Hardly the "everyone" narrative we previously heard. 

Grandal 23 .647 OPS vs 24 .470

Andrus DNP in 24

Anderson 23 .582 OPS vs 24 .427

Jake Burger 23 w/Sox .806 OPS vs 24 .597 OPS

Seby 23 w/ Sox .511 OPS vs 24 .489

Romy 23 .585 OPS, vs 24 .651

Alberto DNP in 24

Trayce DNP in 24

Frazor DNP 24

Hasley DNP 24

Naquin DNP 24

Marisnick DNP 24

Billy Hamilton DNP 24

Jose Rodriguez DNP 24

Giolito DNP 24

Lynn 23 w/Sox 6.47 era 24 3.58 era

Cease 23 4.58 ERA vs 24 3.51 era

Graveman 23 3.48 era vs 2.42, though his FIP has actually gone up from 4.82 last year to 5.00 this year

Santos DNP 24

Bummer 23 6.79 era vs 24 3.68 (FIP difference is only 3.58 to 2.74)

ReyLo 23 w/Sox 4.29 era vs 24 1.85 era

Middleton 23 3.96 era vs 24 1.99 (though now injured)

Scholtens DNP 24

Joe Kelly 23/w Sox 4.97 era vs 24 4.73

Urena 23 4.10 era vs 3.44 era

Ramsey DNP 24

Deikman 23 w/Sox 7.94 era vs 24 3.80

Cronin 23 9.00 era vs 24 2.10

Navarro DNP 24

After that I quit...

 

 

 

 

Bannister is so good his improvement of Sox pitchers transcends time and space.

[T R U]

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Just out of curiosity I looked up the 23 roster.  Names of note:

Basically almost every offensive player has gotten worse since leaving the Sox while the pitching has improved by and large.

Hardly the "everyone" narrative we previously heard. 

Grandal 23 .647 OPS vs 24 .470

Andrus DNP in 24

Anderson 23 .582 OPS vs 24 .427

Jake Burger 23 w/Sox .806 OPS vs 24 .597 OPS

Seby 23 w/ Sox .511 OPS vs 24 .489

Romy 23 .585 OPS, vs 24 .651

Alberto DNP in 24

Trayce DNP in 24

Frazor DNP 24

Hasley DNP 24

Naquin DNP 24

Marisnick DNP 24

Billy Hamilton DNP 24

Jose Rodriguez DNP 24

Giolito DNP 24

Lynn 23 w/Sox 6.47 era 24 3.58 era

Cease 23 4.58 ERA vs 24 3.51 era

Graveman 23 3.48 era vs 2.42, though his FIP has actually gone up from 4.82 last year to 5.00 this year

Santos DNP 24

Bummer 23 6.79 era vs 24 3.68 (FIP difference is only 3.58 to 2.74)

ReyLo 23 w/Sox 4.29 era vs 24 1.85 era

Middleton 23 3.96 era vs 24 1.99 (though now injured)

Scholtens DNP 24

Joe Kelly 23/w Sox 4.97 era vs 24 4.73

Urena 23 4.10 era vs 3.44 era

Ramsey DNP 24

Deikman 23 w/Sox 7.94 era vs 24 3.80

Cronin 23 9.00 era vs 24 2.10

Navarro DNP 24

After that I quit...

 

 

 

 

All those hitters were either washed, one year wonders, or never were anything to begin with.

The pitchers though, that's pretty alarming. Every single one of them, better with someone else than they were with the 23 Sox.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, Quin said:

Everyone knows that it's great for culture when the GM says "I don't like our team" and then assembles the worst fielding team in the majors, the worst offensive team in the majors, and the 28th worst pitching team.

All while on track to be the worst team in history.

Edit: And he did all this while s%*# talking the division that proceeds to whoop their ass.

Aren't you supposed to be bad when you're rebuilding  ? I mean theoretically in any other year they'd get the 1st draft pick. Houston did that 2 years in a row and built a long time winner.

Of course they also got production from a farm system that actually got good players from the DR to sustain their farm system and hired top people and finished it of with key expensive trades and free agents .The Sox historically do none of that and you're blaming Getz for a bad season that we all knew was the start of a rebuild when he hasnt been GM long enough to keep the chair warm.

Getz was hired by the owner during a year that they could get no better than the 10th pick while that same owner threw Getz under the bus knowing full well he'd be slashing the payroll while talking with a forked tongue about a quick turnaround. Getz is like a mouse who got devoured by the snake in a cage. All Getz could is spew BS . What's he supposed to say ?

"Um hey I know I was hired because I work cheap and I'm inexperienced and to cover for the owners lack of vision.  I'm sorry I have to cover for his lies by trying to turn crap into gold this season. The few good players I thought I had all got injured and I was forced to trade my best pitcher and next year we'll have even more money off the books and I still don't know what I'll be allowed to do but JR says I can get some mid level free agents but he won't let me hire top scouts and other experienced expensive people  so I went with people I knew from KC . My pitching guy actually likes trying to get blood from turnips. Sorry fellas I still don't know what JRs plan is I'm just his latest fall guy. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night."

 

Edited June 10 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Quin]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Aren't you supposed to be bad when you're rebuilding  ? I mean theoretically in any other year they'd get the 1st draft pick. Houston did that 2 years in a row and built a long time winner. Of course they also got production from a farm system that actually got good players from the DR to sustain their farm system and hired top people and finished it of with key expensive trades and free agents .The Sox historically do none of that and you're blaming Getz for a bad season that we all knew was the start of a rebuild when he hasnt been GM long enough to keep the chair warm.

Getz was hired by the owner during a year that they could get no better than the 10th pick while that same owner threw Getz under the bus knowing full well he'd be slashing the payroll while talking with a forked tongue about a quick turnaround. Getz is like a mouse who got devoured by the snake in a cage. All Getz could is spew BS . What's he supposed to say ? "Um hey I know I was hired because I work cheap and I'm inexperienced and to cover for the owners lack of vision.  I'm sorry I have to cover for his lies by trying to turn crap into gold this season. The few good players I thought I had all got injured and I was forced to trade my best pitcher and next year we'll have even more money off the books and I still don't know what I'll be allowed to do but JR says I can get some mid level free agents but he won't let me hire top scouts and other experienced expensive people  so I went with people I knew from KC and my pitching guy actually likes trying to get blood from turnips. Sorry fellas I still don't know what JRs plan is I'm just his latest fall guy. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night."

 

You're carrying a pool for Getz here.

1. Getz said the culture starts with him and he leads with that he doesn't like the team. Would you like it if your boss said he didn't like your team? Would it boost morale?
2. s%*# talking the AL Central is a dumb, unforced error.
3. Bannister is giving dividends so far. Barfield we'll wait on that, because right now we know that he picked Fletcher over McCarthy.
4. He spoke about how he'd build a great defensive juggernaut that'd pull pitchers in. They're the worst defensive team.
5. "Getz is like a mouse who got devoured by the snake in a cage," is a real weird way to say "accepted a promotion that he didn't deserve based on his previous performance." Sure, we'd all do that, but if he was a "mouse" he wouldn't have been talking with such bravado. He's a dog that caught the wheel, not a mouse.

[nrockway]

 

2 hours ago, T R U said:

Yep, its not so much "This player stunk with us but magically became good with them". Other organizations have the tools / personnel to find out how to use said player to their strengths or how to get the best out of them. The Diekman example is a perfect case of it.

Is Diekman the perfect example? He's an aged middle reliever who was terrible over the course of 30 innings with the Sox, true, and good with TB over 45 (so good they didn't want to pay him $4mil). I would probably not consider that to be a useful sample size or Diekman a particularly good candidate to critique; he's a pretty marginal player in the grand scheme of things who also wasn't here for very long to make such a determination. Relief pitchers have year-to-year ERAs that are all over the place, how much of that is the Sox fault? Remember the Dodgers thought they could teach Lynn a new pitch and it worked for like one outing before he was back to giving up 5 homers per 9.

I guess 'the margins add up' is the counterargument, but there are very few players I can think of that I'm upset about the Sox not keeping (besides the aforementioned Tatis and Semien who were traded before getting the chance to play better). Specifically, I'm thinking about pitchers who are "better" now than they used to be. southsider compiled the list, thanks, but does anyone look at that list and think to themselves "wow we really squandered Aaron Bummer's potential as a pitcher"? One could argue that developing pitchers is about the only thing this organization has a recent track record of doing effectively. I think more star pitchers have been produced by this team in the last decade or so than it's produced pitching busts, from Rodon and Sale to Crochet and Schultz and a couple in between. 

I think Reynaldo Lopez is the best example, not Diekman, because he's been incredible this year as a starter. I also sorta think it's not sustainable, we watched him pitch long enough, but maybe Atlanta really did open something up for him. We also got good trade value for Lopez who, in retrospect, may have been the more valuable piece than Giolito. 

 

Edited June 10 by nrockway

[T R U]

9 minutes ago, nrockway said:

 

Is Diekman the perfect example? He's an aged middle reliever who was terrible over the course of 30 innings with the Sox, true, and good with TB over 45 (so good they didn't want to pay him $4mil). I would probably not consider that to be a useful sample size or Diekman a particularly good candidate to critique; he's a pretty marginal player in the grand scheme of things who also wasn't here for very long to make such a determination. Relief pitchers have year-to-year ERAs that are all over the place, how much of that is the Sox fault? Remember the Dodgers thought they could teach Lynn a new pitch and it worked for like one outing before he was back to giving up 5 homers per 9.

I guess 'the margins add up' is the counterargument, but there are very few players I can think of that I'm upset about the Sox not keeping (besides the aforementioned Tatis and Semien who were traded before getting the chance to play better). Specifically, I'm thinking about pitchers who are "better" now than they used to be. southsider compiled the list, thanks, but does anyone look at that list and think to themselves "wow we really squandered Aaron Bummer's potential as a pitcher"? One could argue that developing pitchers is about the only thing this organization has a recent track record of doing effectively. I think more star pitchers have been produced by this team in the last decade or so than it's produced pitching busts, from Rodon and Sale to Crochet and Schultz and a couple in between. 

I think Reynaldo Lopez is the best example, not Diekman, because he's been incredible this year as a starter. I also sorta think it's not sustainable, we watched him pitch long enough, but maybe Atlanta really did open something up for him. We also got good trade value for Lopez who, in retrospect, may have been the more valuable piece than Giolito. 

 

Well we used Lopez as a reliever from 2021 onwards (and he was damn good) and now is a starter in Atlanta. Im not sure how that correlates to the discussion, but at least says we probably weren't using him right.

Diekman was terrible for us in 2022, and even worse in 2023. This was 30 innings, but over a what 3 month stint here? That's a decent sampling of awfulness.

[Snopek]

Unrelated to any of this, but Buster Olney’s Twitter account is a party at the moment.

[southsider2k5]

13 minutes ago, Snopek said:

Unrelated to any of this, but Buster Olney’s Twitter account is a party at the moment.

Holy crap, someone needs a better password than p@ssword.

[DoUEvenShift]

21 minutes ago, Snopek said:

Unrelated to any of this, but Buster Olney’s Twitter account is a party at the moment.

Lmfao!

 

 

[joejoesox]

waiting for his DMs to leak, that would be insane if some of his sources get outed

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

You're carrying a pool for Getz here.

1. Getz said the culture starts with him and he leads with that he doesn't like the team. Would you like it if your boss said he didn't like your team? Would it boost morale?
2. s%*# talking the AL Central is a dumb, unforced error.
3. Bannister is giving dividends so far. Barfield we'll wait on that, because right now we know that he picked Fletcher over McCarthy.
4. He spoke about how he'd build a great defensive juggernaut that'd pull pitchers in. They're the worst defensive team.
5. "Getz is like a mouse who got devoured by the snake in a cage," is a real weird way to say "accepted a promotion that he didn't deserve based on his previous performance." Sure, we'd all do that, but if he was a "mouse" he wouldn't have been talking with such bravado. He's a dog that caught the wheel, not a mouse.

We all know JR is the real culprit. If I'm carrying a pool you're crying a pool about what exactly , that he had to talk to the media and put his best foot foward straight into his mouth ? He has to say something positive. The culture talk was a coverup for hey we're rebuilding and our team sucks and going forward I'd like to be better defensively but I can't spend any money to get players who can hit and play defense but I can spend a whole $15M on Eric Fedde and turn Crochet into a SP. Perhaps losing Moncada and Robert and playing Benetendi ( who he inherited) has helped make the drgense worse. But regardless it's the 1st year of a freaking rebuild that hardly had anyone to trade. He's in a rat trap built by the guy who hired him . What exactly did you think was going to happen this year ? I've been telling you for months it was a bad plan to turn garbage into prospects but wasn't much else he could do. I've admitted no one but JR would've hired him to be GM .

Are you unhappy Crochet and Fedde have worked out so far. There have been good things going on. The farm on the pitching side is looking strong. I keep seeing the farm listed in the top 10 sometimes top 5. Yes the trades made by Hahn and Williams have a lot to do with that but they don't make those decisions in a vaccume .Maybe Getz had some input. Thorpe is coming. He couldve hardly pithed any better since being acquired by Getz. Inciarte's done all right.Zavala has promise. And you really want to go on and on about Getz putting on a brave face in the off-season ?

 

[Paulie4Pres]

7 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Jeremy Hahn and Rick Haber took a flame thrower to the entire organization.  They burned the whole damn thing to the ground.  

No. That's Jerry Reinsdorf you're thinking about.

[caulfield12]

5 hours ago, nrockway said:

 

Is Diekman the perfect example? He's an aged middle reliever who was terrible over the course of 30 innings with the Sox, true, and good with TB over 45 (so good they didn't want to pay him $4mil). I would probably not consider that to be a useful sample size or Diekman a particularly good candidate to critique; he's a pretty marginal player in the grand scheme of things who also wasn't here for very long to make such a determination. Relief pitchers have year-to-year ERAs that are all over the place, how much of that is the Sox fault? Remember the Dodgers thought they could teach Lynn a new pitch and it worked for like one outing before he was back to giving up 5 homers per 9.

I guess 'the margins add up' is the counterargument, but there are very few players I can think of that I'm upset about the Sox not keeping (besides the aforementioned Tatis and Semien who were traded before getting the chance to play better). Specifically, I'm thinking about pitchers who are "better" now than they used to be. southsider compiled the list, thanks, but does anyone look at that list and think to themselves "wow we really squandered Aaron Bummer's potential as a pitcher"? One could argue that developing pitchers is about the only thing this organization has a recent track record of doing effectively. I think more star pitchers have been produced by this team in the last decade or so than it's produced pitching busts, from Rodon and Sale to Crochet and Schultz and a couple in between. 

I think Reynaldo Lopez is the best example, not Diekman, because he's been incredible this year as a starter. I also sorta think it's not sustainable, we watched him pitch long enough, but maybe Atlanta really did open something up for him. We also got good trade value for Lopez who, in retrospect, may have been the more valuable piece than Giolito. 

 

Bassitt

Montas

Dunning

 

Three more pretty obvious names on the starting pitching side.   Guess you can include Carson Fulmer, too, haha...almost nobody knew he was still in the big leagues with the suddenly obscure Angels.