The Light at the End of the Tunnel

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I was reading through the Crochet is being converted to a starter thread that got bumped recently and realized that on Jan. 10, 2024 I was telling everyone that this year is going to suck. News flash right ? Almost everyone knew that but very few could've predicted just how bad. I'm sure there's a prediction poll and someone may have predicted 110+ losses but it sure wasn't me.

But what I also was saying back then was this is a rebuild and the goal was not to compete but to trade as many of the short term contracts as possible and bring more talent into the organization. Turn one man's trash into another man's treasure. That's a tough gig and one likely to fail .Trash usually remains trash.

But if you've been paying attention things are not as bleak as they seem if you pause long enough from trashing the 2024 team there some very positive developments. The only reason why I never was rooting for worst record ever was because an unexpected amount of wins would mean some of the dumpster dives and some of the holdovers from previous seasons would be doing well.

I just watched 2 of our pitching prospects and Eric Fedde pitch their asses off on the road with Crochet going today. The pessimist in me says those 2 games could be the best starts of Cannon 's and Thorpe's careers for all we know and Fedde could implode and Crochet arm blow up all before the trade deadline but for right now things are looking up.

Crochet has been way better than anyone could've predicted. Fedde too. If both get traded those 2 alone could bring it multiple high upside bats. Throw in if they trade Robert, Jr. and that's more high end talent.

Speaking of talent and luck. Holy f*** the Sox have got a lot of pitchers in the minors doing really well. Thorpe gets promoted and they replace him with freaking Albert Schweitzer and he proceeds to pitch 7 outstanding innings in his very 1st AA start after rising from the dead.

If you're a reader of the minor league threads you may have seen  a tweet about how the Sox have revamped things and making the pitching development more individualized and it seems to be working. I don't know if Bannister or Getz or if it was some big pow wow of minds that came to this conclusion but so far so good.

Plus a lot of those arms are staying very healthy. Crochet's body is bigger and stronger and he looks incredibly strong still. We haven't seen any signs of fatigue yet. He's really taken to a starting pitchers routine extremely well. Cannon and Thorpe look like pitchers who actually know how to attack hitters. Thorpe knows his stuff and plan of attack against RH and LH hitting so well he was shaking off Maldonado's famous fingers.

So I am hoping that the glimmer of light I see at the end of the tunnel is actually a ray of hope and not another train barreling in our direction to obliterate the the run of good fortune and progress we have seen. After all Jerry Reinsdorf is still the guy in charge.

[southsider2k5]

I do feel good about the pitching.  It would be nice to add another ace potential kind of guy, but I feel like we are doing pretty well there.

The offense?  Yeah that's the train at the end of the tunnel right now.

[reiks12]

I trust Bannister after how the orgs pitching has found success (minus the bullpen but theres just bo talent there) 

[Falstaff]

9 hours ago, reiks12 said:

I trust Bannister after how the orgs pitching has found success (minus the bullpen but theres just bo talent there) 

The thought of Bannister overseeing and working with Noah Schultz, Grant Taylor, Iriarte, Ky Bush, Mason Adams, and Nastrini bodes well.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

The odds of any of these pitchers being as good as crochet is about .01%.

[Bob Sacamano]

5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The odds of any of these pitchers being as good as crochet is about .01%.

If you can’t extend him, there’s really no point in only holding onto him for 2 more seasons though.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

If you can’t extend him, there’s really no point in only holding onto him for 2 more seasons though.

It's the only reason I watch the white sox these days, so for me there's a reason to hold him.

I only watch when he pitches. I also will never promote acting like a small market coward even if that is the likely outcome. I bet garrett would be open to some kind of extension but it wouldn't be cheap cheap.

[WhiteSox2023]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The odds of any of these pitchers being as good as crochet is about .01%.

Yep, I said as much in another thread, but with a Reinsdorf owned team, you have to deal him for prospects and hope for the boom of a prospect or two, along with the years of control.

Edited June 14 by WhiteSox2023

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The odds of any of these pitchers being as good as crochet is about .01%.

And the odds of Jerry signing off Obama real Crochet extension is less.

[joejoesox]

 

[WBWSF]

The bullpen has been a disaster. What upsets me is this organization seems to be fine with it. It doesn't  bother them that this team keeps losing. Perhaps the game plan is too  keep losing and shedding all their high price salaries. Next years team salaries might be the lowest in MLB.

[TheBooneLoganEra]

59 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Yep, I said as much in another thread, but with a Reinsdorf owned team, you have to deal him for prospects and hope for the boom of a prospect or two, along with the years of control.

No you don't. Build around him even if it's for 2 and a half years. Stop allowing it to be okay for this organization to push perpetual rebuilding. It's not. We'll be right back here in 4 years hoping they trade the prospects they received in 2024 for Garrett Crochet. 

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

No you don't. Build around him even if it's for 2 and a half years. Stop allowing it to be okay for this organization to push perpetual rebuilding. It's not. We'll be right back here in 4 years hoping they trade the prospects they received in 2024 for Garrett Crochet. 

Or in two years we are back here without Garrett or the prospects.

[TheBooneLoganEra]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Or in two years we are back here without Garrett or the prospects.

Fine. If they kept their ace and made an effort, an honest effort to extend him, fine. I'd rather that. If the fan base continues to make it okay to rebuild, spend nothing, fail and do it again they will never stop. 

[southsider2k5]

20 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

Fine. If they kept their ace and made an effort, an honest effort to extend him, fine. I'd rather that. If the fan base continues to make it okay to rebuild, spend nothing, fail and do it again they will never stop. 

Look we can stomp our feed and rage and act like we have some sort of power over management, but we all know that there is a very close to zero change that Jerry Reinsdorf reverses 40+ years of his contract philosophies and gives a huge extension for Crochet.  If you go back and think of all of the big pitchers we have had over the years, expecting Garrett to be different just because you are mad isn't going to work.

[Quin]

The problem is that it's very, very easy to see a light at the end of this tunnel:

1. They have an ace (Crochet), mega-tool star CF (Robert), starting catcher (Lee) and their top prospect is a power-hitting lefty shortstop (Montgomery). That's basically the four hardest spots to fill.
   1. Honorable mention: Vaughn may be coming alive? June could also be an aberration, but 1B offense is down this year.
2. Then they have absurd depth building at SP: Thorpe, Schultz, Cannon, Nastrini (yeah, he's having a rough time), Iriarte, Bush, Eder, Adams, Taylor, Pallette, Keener, Gowens, Batista and Carela. That's not even counting Burke or Martin.
3. Bryan Ramos has made his debut. Quero is turning it around. Wolkow is all-tooled up. Baldwin is on fire. Gonzalez has turned it around this year.
   1. I'm going to personally throw Colas in there because his approach seems different this year. I also acknowledge that Fletcher could always revert to his prior career numbers.
4. The Sox look like they'll get something nice at #5.

So, on paper, that all looks fantastic. Especially that pitching depth. But...

1. They once had an ace on a Hall of Fame track (Sale), a top #2 (Quintana), cornerstone 1B (Abreu), top SS prospect (Anderson) and RF putting up amazing numbers (Eaton). That core failed miserably.
2. Outside of Thorpe, Cannon and Nastrini (all very fresh rookies), all of that depth is in the minors. They can still bust. Giolito and Kopech were both #1 SP prospects in baseball (or Kopech was at least #1 RHP). They failed Lopez as a starter. Cease and Rodon were in house.
   1. Much like last time, the relief depth isn't inspiring. Hahn spent that wad of cash after acquiring or drafting so many young relief prospects and they all busted. I assume some of the starters would be converted or traded off.
3. They had a position core oozing talent after the last sell-off — so why would a new one, developed by the same guy as last time — turn out any differently?
   1. Burke looked good last year and is cratering. Ellis has reached the majors, but he needs a hit tool to stick. Terrell Tatum is hitting poorly. Zach DeLoach is meh.
4. As we've seen, high draft picks aren't guaranteed.
5. Most importantly: Jerry didn't spend the fucking money on two superstars that were falling into their lap. Getz is gonna convince him otherwise?

Last go around I'd have been super optimistic, but this team has beaten the optimism out of me.

 

[Kyyle23]

2 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

If you can’t extend him, there’s really no point in only holding onto him for 2 more seasons though.

Yea but you don’t have to trade him at this moment.  If he continues this type of performance through next season, he will be worth so much more next year (if they choose to deal yet another possibly generational lefty)

[Quin]

21 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Yea but you don’t have to trade him at this moment.  If he continues this type of performance through next season, he will be worth so much more next year (if they choose to deal yet another possibly generational lefty)

 

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, WBWSF said:

The bullpen has been a disaster. What upsets me is this organization seems to be fine with it. It doesn't  bother them that this team keeps losing. Perhaps the game plan is too  keep losing and shedding all their high price salaries. Next years team salaries might be the lowest in MLB.

That has happened recently. During the "rebuild" one year the Sox had the lowest team payroll if I recall correctly. That probably made JR very happy. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

21 minutes ago, Quin said:

The problem is that it's very, very easy to see a light at the end of this tunnel:

1. They have an ace (Crochet), mega-tool star CF (Robert), starting catcher (Lee) and their top prospect is a power-hitting lefty shortstop (Montgomery). That's basically the four hardest spots to fill.
   1. Honorable mention: Vaughn may be coming alive? June could also be an aberration, but 1B offense is down this year.
2. Then they have absurd depth building at SP: Thorpe, Schultz, Cannon, Nastrini (yeah, he's having a rough time), Iriarte, Bush, Eder, Adams, Taylor, Pallette, Keener, Gowens, Batista and Carela. That's not even counting Burke or Martin.
3. Bryan Ramos has made his debut. Quero is turning it around. Wolkow is all-tooled up. Baldwin is on fire. Gonzalez has turned it around this year.
   1. I'm going to personally throw Colas in there because his approach seems different this year. I also acknowledge that Fletcher could always revert to his prior career numbers.
4. The Sox look like they'll get something nice at #5.

So, on paper, that all looks fantastic. Especially that pitching depth. But...

1. They once had an ace on a Hall of Fame track (Sale), a top #2 (Quintana), cornerstone 1B (Abreu), top SS prospect (Anderson) and RF putting up amazing numbers (Eaton). That core failed miserably.
2. Outside of Thorpe, Cannon and Nastrini (all very fresh rookies), all of that depth is in the minors. They can still bust. Giolito and Kopech were both #1 SP prospects in baseball (or Kopech was at least #1 RHP). They failed Lopez as a starter. Cease and Rodon were in house.
   1. Much like last time, the relief depth isn't inspiring. Hahn spent that wad of cash after acquiring or drafting so many young relief prospects and they all busted. I assume some of the starters would be converted or traded off.
3. They had a position core oozing talent after the last sell-off — so why would a new one, developed by the same guy as last time — turn out any differently?
   1. Burke looked good last year and is cratering. Ellis has reached the majors, but he needs a hit tool to stick. Terrell Tatum is hitting poorly. Zach DeLoach is meh.
4. As we've seen, high draft picks aren't guaranteed.
5. Most importantly: Jerry didn't spend the fucking money on two superstars that were falling into their lap. Getz is gonna convince him otherwise?

Last go around I'd have been super optimistic, but this team has beaten the optimism out of me.

 

But you still care or else you wouldn't be here. So we know more things go wrong than go right with prospects. That's a given. Reinsdorf is still here. Check.

There are plenty of fans who see Crochet,Fedde and Robert and want to build around them. They see the last performances of Cannon and Thorpe and think the Starting pitching staff isn't that far away. Schultz still maybe 1-4 years away depending if his arm holds up. The same can be said of all the AA pitchers.

There is a lot of rebuild and we can't trust this organization fatigue out there .They always shoot themselves in the foot. JR won't change. I fully get that. I've been a very harsh critic of JR. I'm known as a Getz stan because I defend Getz by saying can we please remember who is the puppeteer and who is the puppet once in a while. Pretty please ? I don't usually bother with any fire Grifol stuff because when JR wants to cut the budget the fired are always more expensive than the replacements and if JR can save 500K by not firing Grifol he will. He's always been pennywise and pound foolish when it comes to investing in the team. He's a real estate guy. If he keeps the purchase he made in reasonable shape the value goes up. It won't be appreciatively higher if he had been spending a billion more dollars on players salaries and infrastructure over the past 40+ years. Individual players are volatile short term assets. Even if he had spent a billion more on those things over those years would the franchise be worth more ? Possibly  but it's not a sure thing . JR cares about ROI ( return on investment) he does not care about ROY ( ok u know). Why pay for the best stuff when even if you do how often do you win a World Series ? As fans our hearts are broken most of the time anyway either by perpetually losing, being stuck in the middle or even if management cares about winning you get so close and fail most of the time in the end. How often have the Dodgers and Yankees won the World Series in 20 years ? ( I should've researched this but I'm winging it) maybe once each ? The same as the Sox. So while fans of those teams get an entertaining product year after year and get to watch multitudes of superstars their fans are heartbroken at the end of the season just as much as we are before most seasons start. Basically we have a lot more to complain about but, fans being fans ,if they are heartbroken at the end they usually find reasons to blame someone who they think failed them along the way .

I already know my fate is to be heartbroken one way or the other so while I pay attention to the minutiae I don't get too wrapped up in it. My perspective is wider. I'm terrible for a message board because all I basically keep saying is why judge so quickly? Be patient . You can't judge trades for years. Give the guy a chance . Development isn't linear, what's all the fuss about ? Relax, chill out , mind your blood pressure, why so negative ? In the end it doesn't even matter. But we have to fill the void doing something before the end !

Let's try not to tear each other apart while we discuss all the minutiae that,  in the end it doesn't even matter . Word to Linkin' Park.

[Quin]

9 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

But you still care or else you wouldn't be here. So we know more things go wrong than go right with prospects. That's a given. Reinsdorf is still here. Check.

There are plenty of fans who see Crochet,Fedde and Robert and want to build around them. They see the last performances of Cannon and Thorpe and think the Starting pitching staff isn't that far away. Schultz still maybe 1-4 years away depending if his arm holds up. The same can be said of all the AA pitchers.

There is a lot of rebuild and we can't trust this organization fatigue out there .They always shoot themselves in the foot. JR won't change. I fully get that. I've been a very harsh critic of JR. I'm known as a Getz stan because I defend Getz by saying can we please remember who is the puppeteer and who is the puppet once in a while. Pretty please ? I don't usually bother with any fire Grifol stuff because when JR wants to cut the budget the fired are always more expensive than the replacements and if JR can save 500K by not firing Grifol he will. He's always been pennywise and pound foolish when it comes to investing in the team. He's a real estate guy. If he keeps the purchase he made in reasonable shape the value goes up. It won't be appreciatively higher if he had been spending a billion more dollars on players salaries and infrastructure over the past 40+ years. Individual players are volatile short term assets. Even if he had spent a billion more on those things over those years would the franchise be worth more ? Possibly  but it's not a sure thing . JR cares about ROI ( return on investment) he does not care about ROY ( ok u know). Why pay for the best stuff when even if you do how often do you win a World Series ? As fans our hearts are broken most of the time anyway either by perpetually losing, being stuck in the middle or even if management cares about winning you get so close and fail most of the time in the end. How often have the Dodgers and Yankees won the World Series in 20 years ? ( I should've researched this but I'm winging it) maybe once each ? The same as the Sox. So while fans of those teams get an entertaining product year after year and get to watch multitudes of superstars their fans are heartbroken at the end of the season just as much as we are before most seasons start. Basically we have a lot more to complain about but, fans being fans ,if they are heartbroken at the end they usually find reasons to blame someone who they think failed them along the way .

I already know my fate is to be heartbroken one way or the other so while I pay attention to the minutiae I don't get too wrapped up in it. My perspective is wider. I'm terrible for a message board because all I basically keep saying is why judge so quickly? Be patient . You can't judge trades for years. Give the guy a chance . Development isn't linear, what's all the fuss about ? Relax, chill out , mind your blood pressure, why so negative ? In the end it doesn't even matter. But we have to fill the void doing something before the end !

Let's try not to tear each other apart while we discuss all the minutiae that,  in the end it doesn't even matter . Word to Linkin' Park.

I mean, of course I care. We all do for various reasons cause the Sox have been such big parts of our lives. I'm visiting going to my first Sox game in Chicago (I've seen them at Citi Field and I'm going to semi-count Dash games on Coney Island) for the first time in 8 years when I visit the city in August despite them being hysterically bad cause I miss the stadium.

I would have been with you if this were a new GM from a different org, but if KW and Hahn were vanilla ice cream with rainbow sprinkles, Getz is vanilla ice cream with chocolate sprinkles and has assembled a historically bad team - that takes effort. Even at the absolute worst of the last rebuild, they weren't this bad. It's a new coat of paint on the same building. I don't even hate JR as a person because I think he's a decent person (based on employee loyalty, charities, what, etc.), just an absolute s%*# sports owner.

To quote GWB: Fool me one, shame on you. Fool me twice, can't get fooled again.

[Bob Sacamano]

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

Yea but you don’t have to trade him at this moment.  If he continues this type of performance through next season, he will be worth so much more next year (if they choose to deal yet another possibly generational lefty)

Agreed. They can wait until next year.

[WestEddy]

Arms have been working hard on the farm…fun to watch the pitching culture develop.

Coaches and coordinators have been crushing it. pic.twitter.com/1DWduMEdo5

— Brian Bannister (@RealBanny) June 14, 2024

[Tony]

2 hours ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

Fine. If they kept their ace and made an effort, an honest effort to extend him, fine. I'd rather that. If the fan base continues to make it okay to rebuild, spend nothing, fail and do it again they will never stop. 

Like almost everything in life, it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. There are a handful of posters here ( @greg775) being the prime example that will rally against "rebuilding" and "tanking" at any turn, doesn't understand it, think it's the worst thing in sports ever. 

Here is what those posters fail to grasp. No fan "wants" their team to be bad or have to suffer through a rebuild. Not one. It's very difficult to find something everyone can agree on in 2024, but one of them is every sports fan wants to see their team win.  It's why we watch and suffer through bad seasons, for the payoff of the team finally winning. 

Now, with that out of the way, we look at the White Sox. We know from historical evidence, acquiring top tier talent doesn't happen in FA, and while the Sox have re-signed some of their players to second contracts, they still have not given out a contract north of 100 million in their history. We also can seemingly all agree that the 2025 White Sox are not going to come close to playoff contention. That pushes us to the 2026 season, which would be the last year of control of Garret Crochet on his current deal. If the White Sox internally believe this current version of Crochet is what they expect over the next two years, they can project what that cost will be on the open market. If they are willing to make that investment in him, I don't think any Sox fans would be upset to see him signed. The reason certain fans are pushing to trade him isn't because they want him gone, but because they don't believe the Sox will be willing to pay him his worth, thus walking away with a comp pick in the process (at best), instead of acquiring 3-4 cost controlled players that can ideally contribute to the 2026-2030 White Sox. It's the harsh realities of having the worst owner in sports run your franchise. 

Getz will ultimately need to make that decision, just like Rick and Kenny did before them. I don't believe they made the proper investments of resources in specific areas (like player development) knowing the constraints Jerry put on talent acquisition, and that will be the biggest challenge for Getz and his team. Understanding what he'll be afforded, and working in that environment to field a team when you aren't able to sign the 200 million dollar player. I believe it can be done, as their are multiple MLB teams that have basically pulled off exactly that, but it's certainly a harder challenge than say the Dodgers, Braves, Yankees, etc. 

[Kyyle23]

4 hours ago, WBWSF said:

The bullpen has been a disaster. What upsets me is this organization seems to be fine with it. It doesn't  bother them that this team keeps losing. Perhaps the game plan is too  keep losing and shedding all their high price salaries. Next years team salaries might be the lowest in MLB.

You are so close