LaRussa speaks...

[Lip Man 1]

28 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

 

Sure whatever.

People just want an excuse to hate on TLR. The dude is a baseball lifer. He played six seasons in the majors. Fifteen in the minors. In addition to two seasons in minor league baseball, he oversaw thirty five MLB seasons. He led the Diamondbacks as CEO for five years. He worked for the Angels for three years as a senior advisor. He has won three world series and four manager of the year awards. He is already in the HOF.

He clearly was too old to manage when he got here and physically couldn't do it anymore, but after he was reassigned, nothing changed; in fact, this team took a step back. He wasn't the problem. Hahn, FO, and the ownership who put together the roster were. It's weird to me that knowing everything we now know including what the team looked like after he was reassigned people still blame the HOF manager with health problems instead of the incompetent boobs in our FO

 

There is plenty of blame to go around. 

[Bob Sacamano]

29 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

 

Sure whatever.

People just want an excuse to hate on TLR. The dude is a baseball lifer. He played six seasons in the majors. Fifteen in the minors. In addition to two seasons in minor league baseball, he oversaw thirty five MLB seasons. He led the Diamondbacks as CEO for five years. He worked for the Angels for three years as a senior advisor. He has won three world series and four manager of the year awards. He is already in the HOF.

He clearly was too old to manage when he got here and physically couldn't do it anymore, but after he was reassigned, nothing changed; in fact, this team took a step back. He wasn't the problem. Hahn, FO, and the ownership who put together the roster were. It's weird to me that knowing everything we now know including what the team looked like after he was reassigned people still blame the HOF manager with health problems instead of the incompetent boobs in our FO

 

Nah, I blame them all. 

[southsider2k5]

34 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

 

Sure whatever.

People just want an excuse to hate on TLR. The dude is a baseball lifer. He played six seasons in the majors. Fifteen in the minors. In addition to two seasons in minor league baseball, he oversaw thirty five MLB seasons. He led the Diamondbacks as CEO for five years. He worked for the Angels for three years as a senior advisor. He has won three world series and four manager of the year awards. He is already in the HOF.

He clearly was too old to manage when he got here and physically couldn't do it anymore, but after he was reassigned, nothing changed; in fact, this team took a step back. He wasn't the problem. Hahn, FO, and the ownership who put together the roster were. It's weird to me that knowing everything we now know including what the team looked like after he was reassigned people still blame the HOF manager with health problems instead of the incompetent boobs in our FO

 

Everything started going wrong under his watch.  He inherited a playoff team, and turned it into a .500 team while he was here.  Those trends just continued after he left.

[Milkman delivers]

2 hours ago, greg775 said:

Except for the DUI stuff I liked the hiring at the time. Hall of Famer comes back to the team that never should have fired him when he was a kid manager. Thought he could in Hollywood fashion lead us to glory. From what I've read he is such an unlikeable guy, combined with his breaking the law, you are right he should never have been hired.

Greg, you’re a good dude, but you have to be in the tiniest minority of Sox fans that liked that move. I cannot think of a single person I talked to that was happy about it.

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, wrathofhahn said:

 

Sure whatever.

People just want an excuse to hate on TLR. The dude is a baseball lifer. He played six seasons in the majors. Fifteen in the minors. In addition to two seasons in minor league baseball, he oversaw thirty five MLB seasons. He led the Diamondbacks as CEO for five years. He worked for the Angels for three years as a senior advisor. He has won three world series and four manager of the year awards. He is already in the HOF.

He clearly was too old to manage when he got here and physically couldn't do it anymore, but after he was reassigned, nothing changed; in fact, this team took a step back. He wasn't the problem. Hahn, FO, and the ownership who put together the roster were. It's weird to me that knowing everything we now know including what the team looked like after he was reassigned people still blame the HOF manager with health problems instead of the incompetent boobs in our FO

 

he was a problem, and continues to be...He destroyed the D Backs. Same thing is happening here, the problem is we have an owner that can't really change things. Tony should retire, and drink wine in his patio. 

I can tell you, I wanted Tony fired 40 years ago. Fans were not unhappy when Hawk pulled the trigger.

[greg775]

6 minutes ago, Milkman delivers said:

Greg, you’re a good dude, but you have to be in the tiniest minority of Sox fans that liked that move. I cannot think of a single person I talked to that was happy about it.

Yeah I got in many fights on the board standing up for LaRussa.

[greg775]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I can tell you, I wanted Tony fired 40 years ago. Fans were not unhappy when Hawk pulled the trigger.

True, but until his DUI atrocities, LaRussa had the last laugh. He had a Hall of Fame career.

Edited June 25 by greg775

[Dick Allen]

18 minutes ago, greg775 said:

True, but until his DUI atrocities, LaRussa had the last laugh. He had a Hall of Fame career.

If he would have been hired by the Mariners and not the stacked A's, he would have been just another guy. Those A's teams were loaded. Once they weren't, he was able to live off it and go to St.Louis.  Hawk firing him got him to the HOF. If they waited a year or a month even, someone else gets the Oakland job.

Edited June 25 by Dick Allen

[nrockway]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Everything started going wrong under his watch.  He inherited a playoff team, and turned it into a .500 team while he was here.  Those trends just continued after he left.

So how do you reach the conclusion that he's the cause of this trend and not just someone along for the ride? Like, did Tony make Moncada go from a .900 to .600 OPS hitter? Or that Eloy and Kopech didn't pan out? Did he sign Yasmani Grandal?

One might reasonably assume that the team was flawed and poorly constructed and doomed to explode (pretty well parallels the AKME Bulls). And if you're blaming the manager, you might more reasonably blame the front office that hired a new manager every year. Consistent leadership might have been more important.

I'll echo wrathofhaaaaaaaahn in that I think the impression Sox fans have of TLR is unfortunate and wrong. He's a hall of famer and baseball legend plain and simple, and the Sox get to claim him. Puritan fans seem to judge him more strongly for being an alcoholic than for anything related to baseball. Stop throwing stones.

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, nrockway said:

So how do you reach the conclusion that he's the cause of this trend and not just someone along for the ride? Like, did Tony make Moncada go from a .900 to .600 OPS hitter? Or that Eloy and Kopech didn't pan out? Did he sign Yasmani Grandal?

One might reasonably assume that the team was flawed and poorly constructed and doomed to explode (pretty well parallels the AKME Bulls). And if you're blaming the manager, you might more reasonably blame the front office that hired a new manager every year. Consistent leadership might have been more important.

I'll echo wrathofhaaaaaaaahn in that I think the impression Sox fans have of TLR is unfortunate and wrong. He's a hall of famer and baseball legend plain and simple, and the Sox get to claim him. Puritan fans seem to judge him more strongly for being an alcoholic than for anything related to baseball. Stop throwing stones.

How do you justify that he alone wasn't the problem?

[Tnetennba]

\

17 minutes ago, nrockway said:

So how do you reach the conclusion that he's the cause of this trend and not just someone along for the ride? Like, did Tony make Moncada go from a .900 to .600 OPS hitter? Or that Eloy and Kopech didn't pan out? Did he sign Yasmani Grandal?

One might reasonably assume that the team was flawed and poorly constructed and doomed to explode (pretty well parallels the AKME Bulls). And if you're blaming the manager, you might more reasonably blame the front office that hired a new manager every year. Consistent leadership might have been more important.

I'll echo wrathofhaaaaaaaahn in that I think the impression Sox fans have of TLR is unfortunate and wrong. He's a hall of famer and baseball legend plain and simple, and the Sox get to claim him. Puritan fans seem to judge him more strongly for being an alcoholic than for anything related to baseball. Stop throwing stones.

It is not puritanical to take issue with a man who drove drunk frequently enough have multiple DUI's on his record. Him being a baseball HOF doesn't cover for him being a shitty person in real life.

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

\

It is not puritanical to take issue with a man who drove drunk frequently enough have multiple DUI's on his record. Him being a baseball HOF doesn't cover for him being a shitty person in real life.

Yeah, I don't know why this whitewashing of TLR is happening by a couple of people, but I am going to offer my version of community notes here:

-I don't know why people are latching on to the "DUI" thing as somehow being a bad thing to have a lack of respect for a person because of.  Yes, I am fully OK with thinking less of someone who has all of the privilege and wealth that a man needs and yet somehow twice be caught endangering the lives of other people (and himself) with the full knowledge that he probably did this dozens of times besides being caught twice.  The average is thought to be somewhere around 80 times before being caught.  All while fully being able to afford a freaking uber/taxi/limo home at worst.  Even while caught, the man tried playing the "don't you know who I am" card.

-He also has the stigma of being accused of racism by former players, coming in to lead a team full of minorities.  It was definitely worth questioning if that history would be a fit with a young and very much non-TLR looking team.

-Even besides his less than glowing off of the field record, the man had been outside of a baseball dugout for over a decade, and was rightfully being questioned over how he would be able to handle how much the game had changed since he left.

-If you want to look at his interim front office work, since he left the dugout, it centered around two teams that took large steps backwards during his tenure with them.

So while a couple seem to feel this was only about his DUIs, that is 100% not true.  There were a ton of legitimate reason being given as to why hiring Tony was an awful idea, and nothing that happened during this time here seemed to do anything to disprove that. Tony inherited an ascending playoff team, and it fell backwards pretty significantly during his time here.  He also publicly hung his own player out to dry and ignored his own coaches trying to tell him rules updates, before quietly quitting for a reason that still hasn't been fully explained to the general public, among some of the public controversies that surrounded his time here.

[Bob Sacamano]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yeah, I don't know why this whitewashing of TLR is happening by a couple of people, but I am going to offer my version of community notes here:

-I don't know why people are latching on to the "DUI" thing as somehow being a bad thing to have a lack of respect for a person because of.  Yes, I am fully OK with thinking less of someone who has all of the privilege and wealth that a man needs and yet somehow twice be caught endangering the lives of other people (and himself) with the full knowledge that he probably did this dozens of times besides being caught twice.  The average is thought to be somewhere around 80 times before being caught.  All while fully being able to afford a freaking uber/taxi/limo home at worst.  Even while caught, the man tried playing the "don't you know who I am" card.

-He also has the stigma of being accused of racism by former players, coming in to lead a team full of minorities.  It was definitely worth questioning if that history would be a fit with a young and very much non-TLR looking team.

-Even besides his less than glowing off of the field record, the man had been outside of a baseball dugout for over a decade, and was rightfully being questioned over how he would be able to handle how much the game had changed since he left.

-If you want to look at his interim front office work, since he left the dugout, it centered around two teams that took large steps backwards during his tenure with them.

So while a couple seem to feel this was only about his DUIs, that is 100% not true.  There were a ton of legitimate reason being given as to why hiring Tony was an awful idea, and nothing that happened during this time here seemed to do anything to disprove that. Tony inherited an ascending playoff team, and it fell backwards pretty significantly during his time here.  He also publicly hung his own player out to dry and ignored his own coaches trying to tell him rules updates, before quietly quitting for a reason that still hasn't been fully explained to the general public, among some of the public controversies that surrounded his time here.

Exactly what I was thinking.

[greg775]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

If he would have been hired by the Mariners and not the stacked A's, he would have been just another guy. Those A's teams were loaded. Once they weren't, he was able to live off it and go to St.Louis.  Hawk firing him got him to the HOF. If they waited a year or a month even, someone else gets the Oakland job.

Interesting position you have here. So we are assuming LaRussa is a clown in this scenario and anybody could win with the A's teams. So are we to believe Pedro or Bevington could have led those teams to titles? My contention is Tony was exceptional for about a 30-year span.

[Lip Man 1]

I've known Tony since 1982, interviewed him for the first time opening night in Texas in 1983.

He was one of the sharpest baseball minds I've ever been around, literally a step ahead of the opposition most of the time.

One example was moving a struggling Carlton Fisk up to the #2 position in the batting order in 1983. Who would think of moving a power hitter into a bat-control spot in the lineup?

But...

The man was off the field for a decade, he had personal issues and just the fact that it was clear JR over ruled his front office and that was well known, poisoned the hire. 

It was a bad mistake and the franchise took the brunt of it. 

[WhiteSox2023]

30 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Interesting position you have here. So we are assuming LaRussa is a clown in this scenario and anybody could win with the A's teams. So are we to believe Pedro or Bevington could have led those teams to titles? My contention is Tony was exceptional for about a 30-year span.

I know this didn’t hurt his managerial career at all…

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yeah, I don't know why this whitewashing of TLR is happening by a couple of people, but I am going to offer my version of community notes here:

-I don't know why people are latching on to the "DUI" thing as somehow being a bad thing to have a lack of respect for a person because of.  Yes, I am fully OK with thinking less of someone who has all of the privilege and wealth that a man needs and yet somehow twice be caught endangering the lives of other people (and himself) with the full knowledge that he probably did this dozens of times besides being caught twice.  The average is thought to be somewhere around 80 times before being caught.  All while fully being able to afford a freaking uber/taxi/limo home at worst.  Even while caught, the man tried playing the "don't you know who I am" card.

-He also has the stigma of being accused of racism by former players, coming in to lead a team full of minorities.  It was definitely worth questioning if that history would be a fit with a young and very much non-TLR looking team.

-Even besides his less than glowing off of the field record, the man had been outside of a baseball dugout for over a decade, and was rightfully being questioned over how he would be able to handle how much the game had changed since he left.

-If you want to look at his interim front office work, since he left the dugout, it centered around two teams that took large steps backwards during his tenure with them.

So while a couple seem to feel this was only about his DUIs, that is 100% not true.  There were a ton of legitimate reason being given as to why hiring Tony was an awful idea, and nothing that happened during this time here seemed to do anything to disprove that. Tony inherited an ascending playoff team, and it fell backwards pretty significantly during his time here.  He also publicly hung his own player out to dry and ignored his own coaches trying to tell him rules updates, before quietly quitting for a reason that still hasn't been fully explained to the general public, among some of the public controversies that surrounded his time here.

Many of us were skeptical before the DUI news came out, and even more so when they moved forward with him while essentially sweeping it under the rug. TLR was not only as bad as many of us predicted he would be, being out of the game for a decade, but worse. Aside from him looking like a rotting corpse most days and literally falling asleep in the dugout, the DUI was not in the forefront of the valid criticism of his second tenure here. Why a few people want to whitewash or gaslight is beyond me.

[FloydBannister1983]

6 hours ago, Milkman delivers said:

The DUI had little to do with it, although it certainly didn’t help. It was the fact that we were the destination for a manager. We could have had our pick of basically anyone, instead we went with a decrepit old prick who hadn’t managed in years. It was, at least symbolically, the first step into the gutter from that potential success we were looking forward to.

The first step was 2019 when they didn’t sign Harper.  And they played games with him.

Any dreams anybody had at this being a serious franchise should have been dashed at that point.

[FloydBannister1983]

5 hours ago, greg775 said:

Except for the DUI stuff I liked the hiring at the time. Hall of Famer comes back to the team that never should have fired him when he was a kid manager. Thought he could in Hollywood fashion lead us to glory. From what I've read he is such an unlikeable guy, combined with his breaking the law, you are right he should never have been hired.

Too long out of the game.  The game passes everyone by when they’re gone.  Phil Jackson, Bill Parcells, Bill Walsh, Pat Riley.  Baseball is no different in that respect.

[FloydBannister1983]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

he was a problem, and continues to be...He destroyed the D Backs. Same thing is happening here, the problem is we have an owner that can't really change things. Tony should retire, and drink wine in his patio. 

I can tell you, I wanted Tony fired 40 years ago. Fans were not unhappy when Hawk pulled the trigger.

I was a fan when Hawk fired LaRussa and I don’t remember fans being overjoyed.  They were dancing in the streets when Hawk quit.

[Texsox]

6 hours ago, Milkman delivers said:

The DUI had little to do with it, although it certainly didn’t help. It was the fact that we were the destination for a manager. We could have had our pick of basically anyone, instead we went with a decrepit old prick who hadn’t managed in years. It was, at least symbolically, the first step into the gutter from that potential success we were looking forward to.

Which is why so many Sox fans want Ozzie back. Alcohol? Check. Hasn't managed in years? Check. Old prick? Check. 

It will work the second time! 

Lol

[FloydBannister1983]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

If he would have been hired by the Mariners and not the stacked A's, he would have been just another guy. Those A's teams were loaded. Once they weren't, he was able to live off it and go to St.Louis.  Hawk firing him got him to the HOF. If they waited a year or a month even, someone else gets the Oakland job.

LaRussa should get credit for Oakland.  LaRussa turned Eckersley into a Hall of Fame reliever from being a middle of the road starter.  He developed three or four ROY in a row.  He’s a POS and the game passed him by but he deserves credit for Oakland.  
 

Of course he was aware of the steroid use there so he should be tarred and feathered for that.

[Texsox]

8 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

I was a fan when Hawk fired LaRussa and I don’t remember fans being overjoyed.  They were dancing in the streets when Hawk quit.

I was not a fan of the move. It seemed less about baseball and more about egos. 

[WhiteSox2023]

“Do you see my ring?”

“I’m a hall of famer baseball person.”

“I’m legit. I’m a hall of famer brother.  You’re trying to embarrass me.”

?

?

Edited June 25 by WhiteSox2023

[Texsox]

16 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

Too long out of the game.  The game passes everyone by when they’re gone.  Phil Jackson, Bill Parcells, Bill Walsh, Pat Riley.  Baseball is no different in that respect.

**Just discussing the concept, not TLR specifically**

Baseball moves slower than any other sport. The manager is not really calling plays or making substitutions in and out. 

Also, if being out of the game causes it to pass you by the following would be true. No one here really knows anything about the game because they were never in.  Plus, ten years from now, you'll really know nothing. 

I'm not certain that's true.