LaRussa speaks...

[Tnetennba]

4 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

LaRussa should get credit for Oakland.  LaRussa turned Eckersley into a Hall of Fame reliever from being a middle of the road starter.  He developed three or four ROY in a row.  He’s a POS and the game passed him by but he deserves credit for Oakland.  
 

Of course he was aware of the steroid use there so he should be tarred and feathered for that.

TLR's first tenure here was before my time, but it seems really weird for Sox fans to celebrate his HOF credentials. What did he do here that contributed to his HOF? 

Gene Lamont had a better winning % and just as many post season appearances as TLR's first stint and we sure don't celebrate him...

[greg775]

30 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Which is why so many Sox fans want Ozzie back. Alcohol? Check. Hasn't managed in years? Check. Old prick? Check. 

It will work the second time! 

Lol

Not true regarding me. I want him back cause our team is so boring and awful I think it'd be hilariously entertaining if he came back. I also was a Ditka fan.

[Lip Man 1]

50 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

I was a fan when Hawk fired LaRussa and I don’t remember fans being overjoyed.  They were dancing in the streets when Hawk quit.

It was a very weird situation between Hawk and TLR.

I've written the chapter on Hawk's tenure for Dr. Fletcher's next Sox book and was able to get a lot of info on what was going on.

For example TLR took two weeks after Hawk offered him the managerial job before deciding to say "yes." He was vacationing in Hawaii.

And then when Hawk interviewed Billy Martin (at the request of Eddie Einhorn) before TLR was fired in June and the word got out when a WMAQ cameraman was waiting at the door to Hawk's hotel sweet when Martin left...that didn't help matters. 

I asked TLR about the entire situation and this is what he told me:

“It hurt. I had a great experience with the White Sox family and then suddenly you’re out of the family. The thing is, to be fair to “Hawk” and Don (Drysdale) and the organization, given what those men accomplished in the game you can’t discount their opinions, they earned the right to be heard. I think what should have happened looking back is that if the organization wanted “Hawk” to take over; he should have had the right to hire his own manager. He should have gotten a new manager right from the start. I should have been called in at the end of the 1985 season and let go…and I would have been OK with that. I would have thought that I had a nice run and it was time to move on. I don’t know if that’s something “Hawk” wanted to do at the time, however.”

[FloydBannister1983]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

**Just discussing the concept, not TLR specifically**

Baseball moves slower than any other sport. The manager is not really calling plays or making substitutions in and out. 

Also, if being out of the game causes it to pass you by the following would be true. No one here really knows anything about the game because they were never in.  Plus, ten years from now, you'll really know nothing. 

I'm not certain that's true. 

I think when people say the game has passed you by it is in relation to his peers.  It doesn’t mean that people who haven’t been in the game don’t know the game.  I’m skeptical that the most knowledgeable fan here would be able to step in and be successful managing.  Doesn’t mean they don’t know the game but it does mean they don’t quite know it at the level of successful, active managers.

Also, do we know of a case where a manager or coach left the game for a player while and was successful upon returning?  I can’t think of a case but there must be one.

[nrockway]

6 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yeah, I don't know why this whitewashing of TLR is happening by a couple of people, but I am going to offer my version of community notes here:

-I don't know why people are latching on to the "DUI" thing as somehow being a bad thing to have a lack of respect for a person because of.  Yes, I am fully OK with thinking less of someone who has all of the privilege and wealth that a man needs and yet somehow twice be caught endangering the lives of other people (and himself) with the full knowledge that he probably did this dozens of times besides being caught twice.  The average is thought to be somewhere around 80 times before being caught.  All while fully being able to afford a freaking uber/taxi/limo home at worst.  Even while caught, the man tried playing the "don't you know who I am" card.

-He also has the stigma of being accused of racism by former players, coming in to lead a team full of minorities.  It was definitely worth questioning if that history would be a fit with a young and very much non-TLR looking team.

-Even besides his less than glowing off of the field record, the man had been outside of a baseball dugout for over a decade, and was rightfully being questioned over how he would be able to handle how much the game had changed since he left.

-If you want to look at his interim front office work, since he left the dugout, it centered around two teams that took large steps backwards during his tenure with them.

So while a couple seem to feel this was only about his DUIs, that is 100% not true.  There were a ton of legitimate reason being given as to why hiring Tony was an awful idea, and nothing that happened during this time here seemed to do anything to disprove that. Tony inherited an ascending playoff team, and it fell backwards pretty significantly during his time here.  He also publicly hung his own player out to dry and ignored his own coaches trying to tell him rules updates, before quietly quitting for a reason that still hasn't been fully explained to the general public, among some of the public controversies that surrounded his time here.

I didn't say it was a good idea to hire him, I said that a reasonable person couldn't blame the manager for the decline of the White Sox. And I wonder about why every thread that mentions him turns into a discussion of what an idiot he is. There's no "whitewashing" going on, it's a discussion of how his baseball acumen is separate from his apparent alcoholism. And yes I think all the "ha, that fucking drunk" posts are pretty annoying. It's a disease that society excuses and encourages. The Temperance Movement was actually correct. The automobile was a mistake. I don't blame Tony La Russa for being victimized by modernity, but I do think he knows baseball. You might also ask the question about why he was able to keep a driver's license. I know someone who killed another person in a DUI, got out of prison and the first thing they did was buy a car and renew their license. Why is that even allowed? I mean, I personally distinguish between a DUI and something more fundamentally wrong, like what Bauer is accused of. Maybe others do not. I bring it up because everybody else does. 

Also I've really tried to find something on his racism besides what reporters and talking heads have written about "the unwritten rules", ie the Mercedes situation and other occurrences. These are the same people who intrinsically think baseball is an "old white man's game" and that the "unwritten rules" are inherently an artifact of white supremacy, hence La Russa is a racist for believing in it. There might be a point to that, but what players are accusing him of racism? I imagine Tim Anderson would have a strong opinion on that if it were true, but if you google "tim anderson tony la russa" the first result is an article about their "special relationship" where Tim gushes about Tony in 2022. If you google "tony la russa racist" it's all a discussion on Josh Donaldson. Maybe you could elaborate on this point. Maybe you reduce Dominican ideas of baseball vs American ideas of baseball to "black" vs "white" but that's a pretty lazy assessment to me. Where might Dusty Baker fit into that? Who cares if Yermin Mercedes got "hung out to dry", he hung the team out to dry by being lousy at baseball and having a bad attitude. 

[southsider2k5]

10 minutes ago, nrockway said:

I didn't say it was a good idea to hire him, I said that a reasonable person couldn't blame the manager for the decline of the White Sox. And I wonder about why every thread that mentions him turns into a discussion of what an idiot he is. There's no "whitewashing" going on, it's a discussion of how his baseball acumen is separate from his apparent alcoholism. And yes I think all the "ha, that fucking drunk" posts are pretty annoying. It's a disease that society excuses and encourages. The Temperance Movement was actually correct. The automobile was a mistake. I don't blame Tony La Russa for being victimized by modernity, but I do think he knows baseball. You might also ask the question about why he was able to keep a driver's license. I know someone who killed another person in a DUI, got out of prison and the first thing they did was buy a car and renew their license. Why is that even allowed? I mean, I personally distinguish between a DUI and something more fundamentally wrong, like what Bauer is accused of. Maybe others do not. I bring it up because everybody else does. 

Also I've really tried to find something on his racism besides what reporters and talking heads have written about "the unwritten rules", ie the Mercedes situation and other occurrences. These are the same people who intrinsically think baseball is an "old white man's game" and that the "unwritten rules" are inherently an artifact of white supremacy, hence La Russa is a racist for believing in it. There might be a point to that, but what players are accusing him of racism? I imagine Tim Anderson would have a strong opinion on that if it were true, but if you google "tim anderson tony la russa" the first result is an article about their "special relationship" where Tim gushes about Tony in 2022. If you google "tony la russa racist" it's all a discussion on Josh Donaldson. Maybe you could elaborate on this point. Maybe you reduce Dominican ideas of baseball vs American ideas of baseball to "black" vs "white" but that's a pretty lazy assessment to me. Where might Dusty Baker fit into that? Who cares if Yermin Mercedes got "hung out to dry", he hung the team out to dry by being lousy at baseball and having a bad attitude. 

This is dumpster fire of lack of information, projections, whatabouts, and whatifs that isn't worth taking seriously. 

[Tnetennba]

Tony La Russa is not a victim. For fucks sake.

[nrockway]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

This is dumpster fire of lack of information, projections, whatabouts, and whatifs that isn't worth taking seriously. 

If you say so. Because this post right here just looks like buzzword salad written by someone who can't actually craft an argument. What am I projecting? I don't drive a car or flip my bat. Never gotten a DUI in my life, but my grandfather killed himself in this way.  If I were projecting, I'd probably be saying something else. What information should I have added, do you want a link to the Tim Anderson interview? Or an analysis of all the players who flopped or the poor decisions that Rich Hahn made? You could probably criticize me for wondering about alcoholic-related legislation rather than blaming individuals who commit the act and then are allowed to continue committing it...but you're not doing that. "whatabouts and whatifs" you sound like fucking Dr Seuss.

You can have your opinion but you don't need to be a dismissive prick about it. You probably could've responded to the post, but maybe you have some complex about getting the last word on the internet. You can have it.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

Anyone who intentionally walks a batter in a 0-2 count does not know baseball, period. 

[Jake]

Honestly this article gives me the impression that Jerry is funding TLR's travel and expenses while giving the possibly mistaken impression that he is occasionally listened to when he shares his views. I think they are just letting an old man hang around the ballpark because that's what he loves to do

[Texsox]

On 6/25/2024 at 10:10 AM, Tnetennba said:

Which is never happening as long as JR has anything connection to this org…

Which is more likely? 

JR retires and sells his shares

Or

JR retires and keeps his shares? 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

23 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Which is more likely? 

JR retires and sells his shares

Or

JR retires and keeps his shares? 

 

 

He's probably not selling while he is alive.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

Which is more likely? 

JR retires and sells his shares

Or

JR retires and keeps his shares? 

 

 

Neither.

He passes away and as per his instructions his family sells the club. 

[Texsox]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

He's probably not selling while he is alive.

But will he retire? 

[Texsox]

3 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Neither.

He passes away and as per his instructions his family sells the club. 

So retirement isn't an option?

Doesn't that really depend on how long he lives and his medical condition?

[Lip Man 1]

23 minutes ago, Texsox said:

So retirement isn't an option?

Doesn't that really depend on how long he lives and his medical condition?

All I've ever heard or read when he has spoken along these lines is that as long as he has his health he wants to own the team and stay involved. As he said last August at the presser (paraphrasing) 'what else am I going to do?'

[Lip Man 1]

LaRussa speaks 2.0...

https://chicago.suntimes.com/white-sox/2024/06/26/white-sox-have-fallen-a-long-way-since-tony-la-russas-most-exciting-sox-moment-just-three-years-ago

[Texsox]

29 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

All I've ever heard or read when he has spoken along these lines is that as long as he has his health he wants to own the team and stay involved. As he said last August at the presser (paraphrasing) 'what else am I going to do?'

And that's what I'm alluding to. There are several ways of defining healthy. The absence of disease is the old school definition. Now we look at vitality, fitness, mental, and emotional health. I could see at some point him taking the Chairman Emeritus route and being more ceremonial. 

I think semi-retirement is more likely than selling. That could be a step in the right direction. 

[FloydBannister1983]

On 6/25/2024 at 7:10 PM, Tnetennba said:

TLR's first tenure here was before my time, but it seems really weird for Sox fans to celebrate his HOF credentials. What did he do here that contributed to his HOF? 

Gene Lamont had a better winning % and just as many post season appearances as TLR's first stint and we sure don't celebrate him...

Comparing LaRussa and Lamont is apples and oranges.  Lamont took over a team on the rise that had finished second two years in a row and was loaded with Thomas, Ventura, McDowell, etc.  LaRussa took over a dumpster fire from player-manager Don Kessinger.

This is not to admire LaRussa but he always was a superior manager to Gene Lamont.  Also in his recent stint here he was clearly senile and out of his league.

[Tnetennba]

3 hours ago, Texsox said:

But will he retire? 

No

[Tnetennba]

2 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

Comparing LaRussa and Lamont is apples and oranges.  Lamont took over a team on the rise that had finished second two years in a row and was loaded with Thomas, Ventura, McDowell, etc.  LaRussa took over a dumpster fire from player-manager Don Kessinger.

This is not to admire LaRussa but he always was a superior manager to Gene Lamont.  Also in his recent stint here he was clearly senile and out of his league.

Oh Lamont sucked, don't get me wrong. My point was more about Sox fans that claim TLR as a Sox great, when his time here he was pretty damned mediocre. Even without the dumpster fire second tenure. It's a weird flex, when, if anything, TLR's time with the Sox hurts his HOF case more than it helped.

[Lip Man 1]

3 hours ago, Texsox said:

And that's what I'm alluding to. There are several ways of defining healthy. The absence of disease is the old school definition. Now we look at vitality, fitness, mental, and emotional health. I could see at some point him taking the Chairman Emeritus route and being more ceremonial. 

I think semi-retirement is more likely than selling. That could be a step in the right direction. 

I can't see it because he is so involved and because based on his (rare) comments about it he has never talked about retiring and let someone else run the show until he passes. 

My sense is when it is his time he wants it to be in his office or ballpark suite, staying involved until literally the final minute. 

Then his family can "Keep the Bulls and sell the Sox..."

[2Deep]

f*** LaRussa, Jerry, and this organization for cheating me out of the sport and team I love most .....

 

That's how I feel!

[FloydBannister1983]

14 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

Oh Lamont sucked, don't get me wrong. My point was more about Sox fans that claim TLR as a Sox great, when his time here he was pretty damned mediocre. Even without the dumpster fire second tenure. It's a weird flex, when, if anything, TLR's time with the Sox hurts his HOF case more than it helped.

Nah, he dragged them out of the dumpster in his first tenure.  The Kessinger era was awful.

[LittleHurtCG]

On 6/25/2024 at 3:16 PM, southsider2k5 said:

How do you justify that he alone wasn't the problem?

TLR was in no way, shape, or form the only problem with the White Sox during his tenure here. The problems started way before TLR's arrival when your guy Rick Hahn traded a future hall of fame pitcher to Boston for a bunch of stiffs. 

On 6/25/2024 at 3:52 PM, southsider2k5 said:

Yeah, I don't know why this whitewashing of TLR is happening by a couple of people, but I am going to offer my version of community notes here:

-I don't know why people are latching on to the "DUI" thing as somehow being a bad thing to have a lack of respect for a person because of.  Yes, I am fully OK with thinking less of someone who has all of the privilege and wealth that a man needs and yet somehow twice be caught endangering the lives of other people (and himself) with the full knowledge that he probably did this dozens of times besides being caught twice.  The average is thought to be somewhere around 80 times before being caught.  All while fully being able to afford a freaking uber/taxi/limo home at worst.  Even while caught, the man tried playing the "don't you know who I am" card.

-He also has the stigma of being accused of racism by former players, coming in to lead a team full of minorities.  It was definitely worth questioning if that history would be a fit with a young and very much non-TLR looking team.

-Even besides his less than glowing off of the field record, the man had been outside of a baseball dugout for over a decade, and was rightfully being questioned over how he would be able to handle how much the game had changed since he left.

-If you want to look at his interim front office work, since he left the dugout, it centered around two teams that took large steps backwards during his tenure with them.

So while a couple seem to feel this was only about his DUIs, that is 100% not true.  There were a ton of legitimate reason being given as to why hiring Tony was an awful idea, and nothing that happened during this time here seemed to do anything to disprove that. Tony inherited an ascending playoff team, and it fell backwards pretty significantly during his time here.  He also publicly hung his own player out to dry and ignored his own coaches trying to tell him rules updates, before quietly quitting for a reason that still hasn't been fully explained to the general public, among some of the public controversies that surrounded his time here.

TLR hung an absolute nobody and a total basketcase out to dry in Yermin Mercedes. This had no bearing on the Sox falling apart whatsoever. 

On 6/25/2024 at 10:34 PM, nrockway said:

I didn't say it was a good idea to hire him, I said that a reasonable person couldn't blame the manager for the decline of the White Sox. And I wonder about why every thread that mentions him turns into a discussion of what an idiot he is. There's no "whitewashing" going on, it's a discussion of how his baseball acumen is separate from his apparent alcoholism. And yes I think all the "ha, that fucking drunk" posts are pretty annoying. It's a disease that society excuses and encourages. The Temperance Movement was actually correct. The automobile was a mistake. I don't blame Tony La Russa for being victimized by modernity, but I do think he knows baseball. You might also ask the question about why he was able to keep a driver's license. I know someone who killed another person in a DUI, got out of prison and the first thing they did was buy a car and renew their license. Why is that even allowed? I mean, I personally distinguish between a DUI and something more fundamentally wrong, like what Bauer is accused of. Maybe others do not. I bring it up because everybody else does. 

Also I've really tried to find something on his racism besides what reporters and talking heads have written about "the unwritten rules", ie the Mercedes situation and other occurrences. These are the same people who intrinsically think baseball is an "old white man's game" and that the "unwritten rules" are inherently an artifact of white supremacy, hence La Russa is a racist for believing in it. There might be a point to that, but what players are accusing him of racism? I imagine Tim Anderson would have a strong opinion on that if it were true, but if you google "tim anderson tony la russa" the first result is an article about their "special relationship" where Tim gushes about Tony in 2022. If you google "tony la russa racist" it's all a discussion on Josh Donaldson. Maybe you could elaborate on this point. Maybe you reduce Dominican ideas of baseball vs American ideas of baseball to "black" vs "white" but that's a pretty lazy assessment to me. Where might Dusty Baker fit into that? Who cares if Yermin Mercedes got "hung out to dry", he hung the team out to dry by being lousy at baseball and having a bad attitude. 

His whole Mercedes thing is quite comical and absurb actually. The whole Sox rebuild did not collapse because TLR hung an absolute stiff like Yermin Mercedes "out to dry". Last I checked Yermin Mercedes was totally out of professional baseball. The rebuild collapsed mainly becuase it was architected by one of the worst general managers in the history of baseball.