southsider2k5 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 5 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said: There's no excuse for this team being THIS BAD without intentionally tanking and trying to lose. None. They are worse than pretty much any team that was TRYING to lose, in the history of modern baseball. Even Oakland last season, was not this bad. They are worse than the 2003 Tigers, and I don't think it's even close. This team might not win 40 games(they will sell off whatever they can at some point). They spent a not insignificant amount of money on absolute losers this off-season, in an attempt to be better than last season, and failed spectacularly. They've made more moves than any team in history up until this point, in an attempt to improve the results on field, and failed spectacularly. If you think Getz and management were planning on this team being THIS fucking terrible this season, I've got a bridge to sell you. There's no reason whatsoever to believe this organization has ANY idea what they are doing during this "rebuild". This is 100% accurate, and it also goes to the idea that the Sox management didn't think they would be THIS bad, otherwise the panicky front office churning the roster wouldn't have been a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 3 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: You just mentioned two of Getz’s primary offseason acquisitions to improve the team’s defense and leadership. If you seemingly know those moves were bad, why do you not blame Getz for making them? I'll just keep copying and posting this until it sinks in for you: Quote 1) It's a rebuild year. The team isn't expected to be competitive. Getz did acquire Lopez and he did sign Maldonado, so I'm not sure why I need to "blame" him. I didn't like the Maldy signing; I still don't. I can 'not like' it and understand why he did it - at the same time. What I don't understand is why you try to make people on this site repeat the same things over and over and over. We all surmise that Reinsdorf wouldn't let Getz fire Grifol, just yet. Grifol is a weak manager, and wanted a clubhouse presence to help him keep the team under control. It's dumb, but there's an easily acceptable reason. I'm pretty sure a lifetime baseball guy isn't looking at Maldy's .080 BA, and thinking that's productive. I would also be sure that Getz sees Maldy laboring to be bad behind the plate, and knows he's done. I can make up reasons why he doesn't cut Maldonado this instant. Professional courtesy? Don't damage an already bad reputation among free agents that the handling of Pillar didn't help? He's Grifol's little buddy, and helps him not lose the clubhouse? He is mentoring Lee and bringing him along? All of the above? 2B - In a rebuild year, I don't think I saw any compelling, cheap options on the market. Getz seemed resolute to cover defense and not worry about offense. I think Remillard would have been slightly better, in that he has a little pop. However, Remy was exposed like any utility infielder would be getting starters innings. I also think the brass recognizes Lopez' shortcomings, and he's pretty much in a straight platoon with Mendick. I don't think the Lopez move was "bad". He was basically for free in trade, and his salary is negligible for being, perhaps, our strongest defensive infielder. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie4Pres Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 (edited) 9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: This is 100% accurate, and it also goes to the idea that the Sox management didn't think they would be THIS bad, otherwise the panicky front office churning the roster wouldn't have been a thing. If you're planning on being terrible and don't care, you don't behave how the White Sox have behaved since the off-season. If they wanted to be bad, they didn't actually have to do much of anything... Instead, they've made more moves than any other team in history. Lol The fact that the White Sox were not intending to be this fucking terrible, and have tried repeatedly to not suck as much, to no avail, should terrify every single White Sox fan in regards to the future. Edited June 27 by Paulie4Pres 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 2 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said: If you're planning on being terrible and don't care, you don't behave how the White Sox have behaved since the off-season. If they wanted to be bad, they didn't actually have to do much of anything... Instead, they've made more moves than any other team in history. Lol The fact that the White Sox were not intending to be this fucking terrible, and have tried repeatedly to not suck as much, to no avail, should terrify every single White Sox fan in regards to the future. Exactly. I honestly think their actions tell me they knew they weren't going to be good, but maybe they could get to mediocre with some luck. They never imagined historically bad, which is why all of the freaking out through crazy roster moves and putting in people who had no business on a MLB roster, and dumping marginal prospects to do it. They were absolutely playing for today a good portion of the season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snopek Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 3 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said: If you're planning on being terrible and don't care, you don't behave how the White Sox have behaved since the off-season. If they wanted to be bad, they didn't actually have to do much of anything... Instead, they've made more moves than any other team in history. Lol The fact that the White Sox were not intending to be this fucking terrible, and have tried repeatedly to not suck as much, to no avail, should terrify every single White Sox fan in regards to the future. They're literally holding tryouts in-season for guys to see if they can accrue enough value to be flipped at the deadline. How is that not trying to be bad? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said: If you're planning on being terrible and don't care, you don't behave how the White Sox have behaved since the off-season. If they wanted to be bad, they didn't actually have to do much of anything... Instead, they've made more moves than any other team in history. Lol The fact that the White Sox were not intending to be this fucking terrible, and have tried repeatedly to not suck as much, to no avail, should terrify every single White Sox fan in regards to the future. Bingo. I think Getz actually thought he was making good acquisitions that would improve the team. Instead, he built one of the worst rosters of all time. Edited June 27 by WhiteSox2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie4Pres Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said: Exactly. I honestly think their actions tell me they knew they weren't going to be good, but maybe they could get to mediocre with some luck. They never imagined historically bad, which is why all of the freaking out through crazy roster moves and putting in people who had no business on a MLB roster, and dumping marginal prospects to do it. They were absolutely playing for today a good portion of the season. Getz has made panic move after panic move ever since they realized they assembled a historically awful team. It's actually been amazing to watch this season unfold. And now, of course, "It was always the plan to be historically terrible." Lol 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 1 minute ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Bingo. I think Getz actually thought he was making good acquisitions that would improve the team. Instead, he build one of the worst rosters of all time. The actions speak for themselves. A guy who knew this was going to happen, isn't reaching out to every 37 year old washed up utility player on the market to get them on to the roster for a couple of weeks. Someone who knew this was going to happen just let it play out. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 12 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said: There's no excuse for this team being THIS BAD without intentionally tanking and trying to lose. None. They are worse than pretty much any team that was TRYING to lose, in the history of modern baseball. Even Oakland last season, was not this bad. They are worse than the 2003 Tigers, and I don't think it's even close. This team might not win 40 games(they will sell off whatever they can at some point). They spent a not insignificant amount of money on absolute losers this off-season, in an attempt to be better than last season, and failed spectacularly. They've made more moves than any team in history up until this point, in an attempt to improve the results on field, and failed spectacularly. If you think Getz and management were planning on this team being THIS fucking terrible this season, I've got a bridge to sell you. There's no reason whatsoever to believe this organization has ANY idea what they are doing during this "rebuild". You can stop taking wild guesses at what I think anytime you're ready. You complain about my posting, I'm guessing because you read it, yet it still hasn't sunk in, yet, that I don't think Getz planned on a 120+ loss season. This entire discussion erupts once a week in one string, or another. Yet, there's always the guy who is flabbergasted that "I think Getz was planning a World Series parade" by signing Maldonado, DeJong, Flexen, and trading for Soroka and Lopez. You seem angry. Perhaps you should deal with your anger issues separate from your problem with projection. Here's what I actually think: 1) Getz thought this team would be merely bad. 2) 3 injuries and multiple key slumps shot this team through the floor. 3) The rotation and bullpen were thrown together to find players to flip, with effectiveness a secondary concern. 4) It's foolish to think that ~$12m spent on Fedde, Flexen and Soroka is wasted money. It was throwing multiple arms at the wall to see if one popped, then trade him. It worked. $12m for about 4WAR at mid-point is an incredible deal. 5) win-loss record no longer matters at this point. Nobody actively frets about the 2003 Tigers, or the rebuilding Astros who lost over 110 3 years in a row. The Astros were even an internet meme, with how bad they were. I don't see videos of White Sox players stumbling over each other all over Twitter. So respond or not, it doesn't matter. You're not having an argument with me. You seem to be screaming at made up people who are saying things you made up. Have fun with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 10 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said: If you're planning on being terrible and don't care, you don't behave how the White Sox have behaved since the off-season. If they wanted to be bad, they didn't actually have to do much of anything... Instead, they've made more moves than any other team in history. Lol The fact that the White Sox were not intending to be this fucking terrible, and have tried repeatedly to not suck as much, to no avail, should terrify every single White Sox fan in regards to the future. Terrify? I believe you're becoming hysterical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 6 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Bingo. I think Getz actually thought he was making good acquisitions that would improve the team. Instead, he build one of the worst rosters of all time. DeJong is an obvious upgrade from Anderson. Victory. Lopez is about as good as what was at 2B last year. Defense is better. Draw. Fletcher/Pillar crumbled when they moved to CF. Failure. Maldonado/Stassi never materialized. Lee is probably better than Zavala/Grandal. Unintended victory. Otherwise, Benny, Robert, Yoan, Vaughn and Eloy were already here. They all just did worse. We've already discussed what I thought Getz was doing with pitching. I'm sure he didn't think he was getting better by bringing in Soroka and not pursuing Giolito. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: The actions speak for themselves. A guy who knew this was going to happen, isn't reaching out to every 37 year old washed up utility player on the market to get them on to the roster for a couple of weeks. Someone who knew this was going to happen just let it play out. I’d like to see a response to this. So Getz acquired a bunch of garbage vets because he knew they would be bad? No, that doesn’t make sense. He acquired them because he thought they would improve the team. So why is there no questioning of the types of players that Getz valued in the offseason? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 8 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said: And now, of course, "It was always the plan to be historically terrible." Lol Can you cite one person who has ever said that? You can't. Tell me, can you ride on flying unicorns in this fantasyland of yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie4Pres Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 3 minutes ago, Snopek said: They're literally holding tryouts in-season for guys to see if they can accrue enough value to be flipped at the deadline. How is that not trying to be bad? You aren't getting "value" out of any of these fucking guys. That narrative is an absolute joke. Especially when you look around the league at the "value" legitimate MLB players with a proven track record have returned. Nobody is giving up any prospect with a chance to be an MLB player for washed up players who may have had a good month or two. Even if one concedes that the White Sox were TRYING to be bad this season(they weren't), there are two problems with this theory. 1) Why would they be trying to be bad? There's nothing to be gained from it. They are stuck at pick 10 regardless. There's no logical reason they would intentionally try to be as bad as possible this season. 2) They had ZERO intentions of being historically terrible. None whatsoever. So you're still left with the fact that the White Sox are likely going to be the worst team in modern MLB history, without trying to be even the worst team this season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 2 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: I’d like to see a response to this. So Getz acquired a bunch of garbage vets because he knew they would be bad? No, that doesn’t make sense. He acquired them because he thought they would improve the team. So why is there no questioning of the types of players that Getz valued in the offseason? You get a response to this every time you ask it, then you pretend you didn't and continue to say made up things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 11 minutes ago, Snopek said: They're literally holding tryouts in-season for guys to see if they can accrue enough value to be flipped at the deadline. How is that not trying to be bad? Look if you are trying to convince me the Sox called up a 32/33 year old Rafael Ortega with his career major league OPS+ of 86 coming into this year because they thought he could be a trade piece I am 100% going to say there is no way on god's green earth that is true. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 (edited) Fletcher and Pillar crumbled when they had to play CF? Interesting. Not sure how you can just pull this assumption out of somewhere… Fletcher hit well for the Diamondbacks while he playing some CF for them last year and Pillar’s bat sure doesn’t seem to be affected by having to play some CF for the Angels once he left the Sox. Edited June 27 by WhiteSox2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 4 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said: Nobody is giving up any prospect with a chance to be an MLB player for washed up players who may have had a good month or two. Continue to be wrong. It's actually funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 2 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Fletcher and Pillar crumbled when they had to play CF? Interesting. Not sure how you can just pull this assumption out of somewhere… Fletcher hit well for the Diamondbacks while he playing some CF for them last year and Pillar’s bat sure doesn’t seem to be affected by having to play some CF for the Angels once he left the Sox. See? At this point, you're arguing just to argue. Fletcher wasn't ready, and the Pillar DFA was unfortunate. You don't even really have a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie4Pres Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 9 minutes ago, WestEddy said: You can stop taking wild guesses at what I think anytime you're ready. You complain about my posting, I'm guessing because you read it, yet it still hasn't sunk in, yet, that I don't think Getz planned on a 120+ loss season. This entire discussion erupts once a week in one string, or another. Yet, there's always the guy who is flabbergasted that "I think Getz was planning a World Series parade" by signing Maldonado, DeJong, Flexen, and trading for Soroka and Lopez. You seem angry. Perhaps you should deal with your anger issues separate from your problem with projection. Here's what I actually think: 1) Getz thought this team would be merely bad. 2) 3 injuries and multiple key slumps shot this team through the floor. 3) The rotation and bullpen were thrown together to find players to flip, with effectiveness a secondary concern. 4) It's foolish to think that ~$12m spent on Fedde, Flexen and Soroka is wasted money. It was throwing multiple arms at the wall to see if one popped, then trade him. It worked. $12m for about 4WAR at mid-point is an incredible deal. 5) win-loss record no longer matters at this point. Nobody actively frets about the 2003 Tigers, or the rebuilding Astros who lost over 110 3 years in a row. The Astros were even an internet meme, with how bad they were. I don't see videos of White Sox players stumbling over each other all over Twitter. So respond or not, it doesn't matter. You're not having an argument with me. You seem to be screaming at made up people who are saying things you made up. Have fun with that. I think I've made it clear long ago that I don't give a flying f*** about your opinion. I only reply to you out of the brief amusement it gives me watching you contort yourself, and twist around logic and facts, in an attempt to support your absurd opinions. Angry? Lol. Aren't you the guy getting posts deleted for personal insults? I'm not angry at all. Evidently your ability to infer emotion from forum posts is just as bad as your ability to evaluate baseball. I'm actually completely apathetic. I'm done caring about this organization until the old bastard is enshrined in his mausoleum. I'm here to commiserate with fellow Sox fans, who have also given up on this pathetic franchise, and to laugh at how pathetic they are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 3 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Can you cite one person who has ever said that? You can't. Tell me, can you ride on flying unicorns in this fantasyland of yours? So again you are back to trying to hold both positions that we weren't supposed to be this bad, but we were only this bad because of the injuries, even though the entire world knew injuries were a long part of all three of their histories, as well as bad performances by guys who are either regressing or not progressing, all while ignoring we also got crazy good production from guys that was 100% not expected such as Crochet, Feede, and Lee that should have more than balanced some of this out and thus returned us to just "bad", and things could have actually been way worse than they actually are? Even if the idea was that this was just going to be "bad" there still isn't the incentive to churn the roster to the extent it was. Bad teams are thinking of development and evaluation of kids too, and we haven't done that, except where we didn't have a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snopek Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said: Look if you are trying to convince me the Sox called up a 32/33 year old Rafael Ortega with his career major league OPS+ of 86 coming into this year because they thought he could be a trade piece I am 100% going to say there is no way on god's green earth that is true. Absolutely not, and I'm not saying Getz has done a good job. I just think the suggestions that he's been trying to field a competitive team this whole time and this is the outcome are absurd. I believe the moves made have been a mix of plan AND panic and I don't get why it has to be entirely one or the other. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 2 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said: I think I've made it clear long ago that I don't give a flying f*** about your opinion. I only reply to you out of the brief amusement it gives me watching you contort yourself, and twist around logic and facts, in an attempt to support your absurd opinions. Angry? Lol. Aren't you the guy getting posts deleted for personal insults? I'm not angry at all. Evidently your ability to infer emotion from forum posts is just as bad as your ability to evaluate baseball. I'm actually completely apathetic. I'm done caring about this organization until the old bastard is enshrined in his mausoleum. I'm here to commiserate with fellow Sox fans, who have also given up on this pathetic franchise, and to laugh at how pathetic they are. Hysterical again. LOL. You certainly don't give a flying f*** about facts, or about what people actually think. Run along and keep making up things to be angry and hysterical about. Hysterical P4P is pretty spot on, actually. Have fun with your little game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 (edited) 5 minutes ago, WestEddy said: See? At this point, you're arguing just to argue. Fletcher wasn't ready, and the Pillar DFA was unfortunate. You don't even really have a point. Fletcher isn’t ready? Dude will be 27 in a couple months. He played last year and hit well in a small sample size. Getz obviously thought he was the real deal to give up Mena for him. If Fletcher isn’t ready now, he’ll never be ready. Which would mean he was a bad acquisition. My point was you just made up a complete and utter bullshit excuse for two of Getz’s acquisitions — that they somehow tanked with their bats cuz they had to play CF. Edited June 27 by WhiteSox2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 4 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: You put quotes around " the only reason we are this bad is because all these bad things happened." Who is this imaginary friend of yours who said this ? You're quoting someone right ? 19 minutes ago, WestEddy said: You can stop taking wild guesses at what I think anytime you're ready. You complain about my posting, I'm guessing because you read it, yet it still hasn't sunk in, yet, that I don't think Getz planned on a 120+ loss season. This entire discussion erupts once a week in one string, or another. Yet, there's always the guy who is flabbergasted that "I think Getz was planning a World Series parade" by signing Maldonado, DeJong, Flexen, and trading for Soroka and Lopez. You seem angry. Perhaps you should deal with your anger issues separate from your problem with projection. Here's what I actually think: 1) Getz thought this team would be merely bad. 2) 3 injuries and multiple key slumps shot this team through the floor. 3) The rotation and bullpen were thrown together to find players to flip, with effectiveness a secondary concern. 4) It's foolish to think that ~$12m spent on Fedde, Flexen and Soroka is wasted money. It was throwing multiple arms at the wall to see if one popped, then trade him. It worked. $12m for about 4WAR at mid-point is an incredible deal. 5) win-loss record no longer matters at this point. Nobody actively frets about the 2003 Tigers, or the rebuilding Astros who lost over 110 3 years in a row. The Astros were even an internet meme, with how bad they were. I don't see videos of White Sox players stumbling over each other all over Twitter. So respond or not, it doesn't matter. You're not having an argument with me. You seem to be screaming at made up people who are saying things you made up. Have fun with that. Yeah, and I know you have been mad lately, but here you go. Again. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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