Path to .500 in 2025

[greg775]

4 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Because by the time this franchise is respectable he'll be nearing or at free agency and JR will NOT pay him especially if he can put together a few more seasons like the one he had last year.

Now if new ownership is in place they may feel differently about him. 

Thus endeth the lesson. 

You guys act like my opinions on this stuff are so wrong. I was talking to a baseball expert today about the Sox wanting to dump Crochet and Robert and he said "why would they get rid of their only two players?" Not everybody thinks the way you guys do. Sox are lucky to have any paying fans willing to put up with the way they tank/rebuild. What's wrong with Robert staying 2-3 years and making some memories on the south side? Who cares his contract will run out someday? The Spurs for instance have Victor. Why not trade him if u are the Spurs I can hear you guys saying? Get rid of him. With him they won 20 games. 

Sad you guys are accepting horrific baseball because it MAY lead to good baseball someday. Losing is for losers is what I say. You got allegedly two of the best players in the league; you keep them and try to win a few games.

Edited July 10 by greg775

[southsider2k5]

33 minutes ago, greg775 said:

You guys act like my opinions on this stuff are so wrong. I was talking to a baseball expert today about the Sox wanting to dump Crochet and Robert and he said "why would they get rid of their only two players?" Not everybody thinks the way you guys do. Sox are lucky to have any paying fans willing to put up with the way they tank/rebuild. What's wrong with Robert staying 2-3 years and making some memories on the south side? Who cares his contract will run out someday? The Spurs for instance have Victor. Why not trade him if u are the Spurs I can hear you guys saying? Get rid of him. With him they won 20 games. 

Sad you guys are accepting horrific baseball because it MAY lead to good baseball someday. Losing is for losers is what I say. You got allegedly two of the best players in the league; you keep them and try to win a few games.

Do we really need to talk about the difference between basketball and baseball?  I am pretty sure you know this.

[greg775]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Do we really need to talk about the difference between basketball and baseball?  I am pretty sure you know this.

I need to give up on the topic. Can't believer real true blue sports fans think the White Sox trading their two good players plus one decent player (Fedde) is the way to go. Insanity to me.

Edited July 10 by greg775

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, greg775 said:

I need to give up on the topic. Can't believer real true blue sports fans think the White Sox trading their two good players plus one decent player (Fedde) is the way to go. Insanity to me.

You can win in baseball without superstars.

Or the opposite.  See Trout with Ohtani.

How have the Bulls done in the last thirty years when they had any star but an uninjured D. Rose?

[Kyyle23]

7 hours ago, greg775 said:

I need to give up on the topic. Can't believer real true blue sports fans think the White Sox trading their two good players plus one decent player (Fedde) is the way to go. Insanity to me.

Watch live sports online

 

It’s because everyone thinks about the timing in baseball but you.  Everyone is constantly talking about turning over this shitty roster because they have a legit chance at being the worst team in the history of the game, and you are crying constantly on this site about keeping players that literally will not be around when this team gets good again(if ever).   as if keeping Fedde Crochet or Robert RIGHT NOW will make anything in the next two years better.

 

we can both agree that this team is terrible, it just sucks seeing you completely unable to grasp the obvious about getting out of this situation and act like keeping Fedde is some lynchpin to greatness.  I’m not asking you to quit talking about baseball, I’m asking you to start thinking about baseball.

[WBWSF]

6 hours ago, greg775 said:

I need to give up on the topic. Can't believer real true blue sports fans think the White Sox trading their two good players plus one decent player (Fedde) is the way to go. Insanity to me.

I agree with you. You build around your best players.

[Kyyle23]

9 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

I agree with you. You build around your best players.

Again, explain the timing.  This is such a simple view and has zero context.  Keep all good players trade all bad players!

[southsider2k5]

7 hours ago, greg775 said:

I need to give up on the topic. Can't believer real true blue sports fans think the White Sox trading their two good players plus one decent player (Fedde) is the way to go. Insanity to me.

I can't believe you are endorsing a 40 win baseball team. It makes me think you are trolling again. 

[Tony]

12 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Again, explain the timing.  This is such a simple view and has zero context.  Keep all good players trade all bad players!

Let's just call it for what it is. The argument from a "certain side" of the fan base just lacks any form of critical thinking. It's an incredibly simplistic viewpoint of "These are good players, why trade them, build around them!" but of course that viewpoint leaves out important context like 1. Who the owner is 2. How far away this team is from competing 3. Contract values and length of term and a host of other factors. Some people just don't want to educate themselves on another viewpoint. Not even to change their mind, but to simply understand the other perspective. Greg said "What's wrong with Robert staying on for 2-3 years and making some memories on the South Side?" When users try and explain that no one wants to stay on a perpetual track of losing, but instead build something sustainable, users like greg simply can't grasp how trading Robert can accomplish that. They can't see the forrest through the trees. 

The biggest disconnect seems to be users like greg seem to think fans want to get rid of someone like Crochet. Because fans are obsessed with a new shinny prospect. When in reality, 99% of White Sox fans want to see Crochet on the White Sox for a long time. But as noted above, fans are smart enough to know the current owner of the White Sox won't pay for a contract extension for Crochet, and given where this organization is in the rebuild process, the next two seasons won't see the Sox contending for a playoff spot. So knowing he won' be re-signed, and the Sox won't field a team around Crochet that can compete while he's under contract...the choice to move him while his value is high seems like an obvious one, but I guess not for some.  

Lastly, there is something to be said about fans in their 60's, 70's and 80's. Anecdotal, but in my experience both on this forum and in real life, in talking to those Boomers (not a put down) they just want a slightly competitive team. I don't know if it's a "closer to death" thing, but most can't seem to wrap their head around a "tanking process" that will take multiple years, it just doesn't make sense to them and will never accept it, even if it's a harsh reality for most teams in most sports, and has been shown to work. 

[WBWSF]

51 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Again, explain the timing.  This is such a simple view and has zero context.  Keep all good players trade all bad players!

You add good players to the team. The White Sox could have traded for Luis Arraez and didn't. The Padres gave up next to nothing for him. I read where the Marlins are even paying part of Arraez salary. They could have had Arraez for 2 years, Would you rather have Lopez at 2nd base or Arraez?  The reason why I'm not  as upset as other White Sox fans are about this season is because I feel the present management doesn't care if they lose. The bullpen has been a disaster. They have blown game after game and yet management has done nothing to improve the bullpen. I think their game plan is to have one of the lowest payrolls in MLB in 2025.

[MikeKreevich]

23 minutes ago, Tony said:

Let's just call it for what it is. The argument from a "certain side" of the fan base just lacks any form of critical thinking. It's an incredibly simplistic viewpoint of "These are good players, why trade them, build around them!" but of course that viewpoint leaves out important context like 1. Who the owner is 2. How far away this team is from competing 3. Contract values and length of term and a host of other factors. Some people just don't want to educate themselves on another viewpoint. Not even to change their mind, but to simply understand the other perspective. Greg said "What's wrong with Robert staying on for 2-3 years and making some memories on the South Side?" When users try and explain that no one wants to stay on a perpetual track of losing, but instead build something sustainable, users like greg simply can't grasp how trading Robert can accomplish that. They can't see the forrest through the trees. 

The biggest disconnect seems to be users like greg seem to think fans want to get rid of someone like Crochet. Because fans are obsessed with a new shinny prospect. When in reality, 99% of White Sox fans want to see Crochet on the White Sox for a long time. But as noted above, fans are smart enough to know the current owner of the White Sox won't pay for a contract extension for Crochet, and given where this organization is in the rebuild process, the next two seasons won't see the Sox contending for a playoff spot. So knowing he won' be re-signed, and the Sox won't field a team around Crochet that can compete while he's under contract...the choice to move him while his value is high seems like an obvious one, but I guess not for some.  

Lastly, there is something to be said about fans in their 60's, 70's and 80's. Anecdotal, but in my experience both on this forum and in real life, in talking to those Boomers (not a put down) they just want a slightly competitive team. I don't know if it's a "closer to death" thing, but most can't seem to wrap their head around a "tanking process" that will take multiple years, it just doesn't make sense to them and will never accept it, even if it's a harsh reality for most teams in most sports, and has been shown to work. 

First may I say that because you have tens of thousands of posts and responses does not mean you are any more baseball savvy.  Boomers, like myself, who have been watching the team since long before you were born just might have a valuable perceptive.  What's your timeline and what result do you seek?   A playoff team or division winner is all you can hope for with our owner and fanbase.  Keeping or trading Luis Robert won't change that much.

[Kyyle23]

22 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

You add good players to the team. The White Sox could have traded for Luis Arraez and didn't. The Padres gave up next to nothing for him. I read where the Marlins are even paying part of Arraez salary. They could have had Arraez for 2 years, Would you rather have Lopez at 2nd base or Arraez?  The reason why I'm not  as upset as other White Sox fans are about this season is because I feel the present management doesn't care if they lose. The bullpen has been a disaster. They have blown game after game and yet management has done nothing to improve the bullpen. I think their game plan is to have one of the lowest payrolls in MLB in 2025.

Please framework a deal that the White Sox could have put out there that would equal or better either the Marlins or Padres deal for Arraez.  Again, you are just advocating “getting good players” and named a good player you know with absolutely zero context on the ability to acquire him.  Like it’s just a yes/no exercise 

[southsider2k5]

33 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

You add good players to the team. The White Sox could have traded for Luis Arraez and didn't. The Padres gave up next to nothing for him. I read where the Marlins are even paying part of Arraez salary. They could have had Arraez for 2 years, Would you rather have Lopez at 2nd base or Arraez?  The reason why I'm not  as upset as other White Sox fans are about this season is because I feel the present management doesn't care if they lose. The bullpen has been a disaster. They have blown game after game and yet management has done nothing to improve the bullpen. I think their game plan is to have one of the lowest payrolls in MLB in 2025.

Luis Arraez is playing in his 5th MLB season, meaning after next season he would be gone.  How many wins do you think Arraez would have added to this team at the expense of the players we would have had to give up?  Do you think it would have gotten us to say 50 wins, instead of 46?  You really think it would be worth giving up players to do that?

[Tony]

23 minutes ago, MikeKreevich said:

First may I say that because you have tens of thousands of posts and responses does not mean you are any more baseball savvy.  Boomers, like myself, who have been watching the team since long before you were born just might have a valuable perceptive.  What's your timeline and what result do you seek?   A playoff team or division winner is all you can hope for with our owner and fanbase.  Keeping or trading Luis Robert won't change that much.

1. Never made a claim that because I have more posts, I'm more baseball savvy. 

2. Valuable perceptive? Or valuable perspective? Not really helping the old man argument with that one...

3. In regards to your question on "my timeline" and the "results that I seek" I've said for years now that none of it matters until Jerry is gone. A true, sustainable winner will not be built under Jerry as he won't invest to proper resources into the places investments need to be made, so we can get that out of the way right off the bat. I agree with you that a random playoff team is about the best we can hope for at this current point, similar to what we saw in 2020 and 2021. Currently, the Sox in 2024 are a ways off from that. Spending A LOT of money is the only way the Sox are competitive by 2026, and we can all agree that won't happen, so we're looking at 3-4 years of development and proper asset management before we should expect to see a respectable ball club. (The Sox did their last fire sale in 2016, took them 2017-2018-2019 to build things back up before being competitive in 2020 and 2021)

So using that timeline as our baseline...Crochet will no longer be under club control at that point, and Luis Robert would be on the last year of his deal during the 2027 season. If the Sox used both of those players to acquire 4-5 players that would be making their ML debuts in 2026-2027, you have six years of cost control with those players, and ideally can make a run during that window, adding some free agent pieces around the diamond to supplement that core group, like the Sox have done before (Grandal-Hendricks-Keuchel) 

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, Tony said:

1. Never made a claim that because I have more posts, I'm more baseball savvy. 

2. Valuable perceptive? Or valuable perspective? Not really helping the old man argument with that one...

3. In regards to your question on "my timeline" and the "results that I seek" I've said for years now that none of it matters until Jerry is gone. A true, sustainable winner will not be built under Jerry as he won't invest to proper resources into the places investments need to be made, so we can get that out of the way right off the bat. I agree with you that a random playoff team is about the best we can hope for at this current point, similar to what we saw in 2020 and 2021. Currently, the Sox in 2024 are a ways off from that. Spending A LOT of money is the only way the Sox are competitive by 2026, and we can all agree that won't happen, so we're looking at 3-4 years of development and proper asset management before we should expect to see a respectable ball club. (The Sox did their last fire sale in 2016, took them 2017-2018-2019 to build things back up before being competitive in 2020 and 2021)

So using that timeline as our baseline...Crochet will no longer be under club control at that point, and Luis Robert would be on the last year of his deal during the 2027 season. If the Sox used both of those players to acquire 4-5 players that would be making their ML debuts in 2026-2027, you have six years of cost control with those players, and ideally can make a run during that window, adding some free agent pieces around the diamond to supplement that core group, like the Sox have done before (Grandal-Hendricks-Keuchel) 

And keep in mind that the Sox are already 15-20 games worse than the last rebuild, before they even finished their trading.  This has a looooooong way to go. 

[Tnetennba]

I think we would all love to build around Robert and Crochet. Just like we all would have loved to build around Sale and Quintana. It is the build part that is the issue.

The Chairman refuses to actually build. Which is to say he refuses to build in a manner that equates to winning in the era we are in. He refuses to pay for top tier talent in free agency despite the large market, he refuses to invest in building a minor league system that produces MLB regulars, and he refuses to invest/build a talent pipeline in Latin America. Things that all good teams do in one facet or another. 

The build around X player arguments are hollow and toothless when they refuse to acknowledge very entity that prohibits this org from actually building a winner.

[southsider2k5]

9 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

I think we would all love to build around Robert and Crochet. Just like we all would have loved to build around Sale and Quintana. It is the build part that is the issue.

The Chairman refuses to actually build. Which is to say he refuses to build in a manner that equates to winning in the era we are in. He refuses to pay for top tier talent in free agency despite the large market, he refuses to invest in building a minor league system that produces MLB regulars, and he refuses to invest/build a talent pipeline in Latin America. Things that all good teams do in one facet or another. 

The build around X player arguments are hollow and toothless when they refuse to acknowledge very entity that prohibits this org from actually building a winner.

You can get away with not spending big, but you HAVE To have a minor league system which gives you cheap and quality talent on a regular basis.  The Sox don't have that as of today.

[Tnetennba]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

You can get away with not spending big, but you HAVE To have a minor league system which gives you cheap and quality talent on a regular basis.  The Sox don't have that as of today.

The White Sox do neither, which is why they are in the mess they are in. 

[Lip Man 1]

14 hours ago, greg775 said:

You guys act like my opinions on this stuff are so wrong. I was talking to a baseball expert today about the Sox wanting to dump Crochet and Robert and he said "why would they get rid of their only two players?" Not everybody thinks the way you guys do. Sox are lucky to have any paying fans willing to put up with the way they tank/rebuild. What's wrong with Robert staying 2-3 years and making some memories on the south side? Who cares his contract will run out someday? The Spurs for instance have Victor. Why not trade him if u are the Spurs I can hear you guys saying? Get rid of him. With him they won 20 games. 

Sad you guys are accepting horrific baseball because it MAY lead to good baseball someday. Losing is for losers is what I say. You got allegedly two of the best players in the league; you keep them and try to win a few games.

Greg: I respect your Sox fandome but if you can't see or understand the dilemma this franchise is in because of ownership there's nothing I or others can tell you.

I'd LOVE for the Sox to at least have a winning season which is something they regularly did between 1981-2006 under JR, 99 Sox fans out of 100 would love this.

But that's not where this franchise is today.

For a final time I'll try to make you understand.

KEEPING FEDDE, KEEPING CROCHET WON'T DO SQUAT because the Sox are going to suck for the next few years at least.

Why?

Because ownership refuses to put the talent around them needed to win as  others have expressed accurately and in what specific areas.

The ONLY way, under current ownership the franchise has any hope of winning is getting literally as many talented kids as possible through trades and the draft and hope they can produce, come up to the big club and win games. 

That's it Greg, that the only possible way and frankly even that is a long shot.

"Hope" generally is not a recipe for success.

Feel free to continue thinking as you will but it is akin to tilting at windmills. 

Having two good pitchers, maybe a good hitter or two may win you 65 games.

And I'd be curious to know who this "baseball expert" is? Care to share their name? 

 

 

 

Edited July 10 by Lip Man 1

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

The White Sox do neither, which is why they are in the mess they are in. 

The Sox will put up a payroll commiserate to their revenues.  They just do so in an absolutely senseless way.

[greg775]

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Greg: I respect your Sox fandome but if you can't see or understand the dilemma this franchise is in because of ownership there's nothing I or others can tell you.

I'd LOVE for the Sox to at least have a winning season which is something they regularly did between 1981-2006 under JR, 99 Sox fans out of 100 would love this.

But that's not where this franchise is today.

For a final time I'll try to make you understand.

KEEPING FEDDE, KEEPING CROCHET WON'T DO SQUAT because the Sox are going to suck for the next few years at least.

Why?

Because ownership refuses to put the talent around them needed to win as  others have expressed accurately and in what specific areas.

The ONLY way, under current ownership the franchise has any hope of winning is getting literally as many talented kids as possible through trades and the draft and hope they can produce, come up to the big club and win games. 

That's it Greg, that the only possible way and frankly even that is a long shot.

"Hope" generally is not a recipe for success.

Feel free to continue thinking as you will but it is akin to tilting at windmills. 

Having two good pitchers, maybe a good hitter or two may win you 65 games.

And I'd be curious to know who this "baseball expert" is? Care to share their name? 

 

 

 

I won't fight back and respond to the recent posts in this thread cause many of my arguments will be the same as I've given before. I will say a lot of my arguments don't consider Jerry and his cheapness cause for some reason I feel we can win in spite of him partly because of this gawd-awful division which the Sox have refused to dominate thru the years. In a nutshell, I personally feel it doesn't take much to compete in such a weak division and in my mind having special players like Robert and Crochet and the new Fedde are better on my team than some other team. It also would be nice to coach up guys like Eloy and Moncada and TA before that but the Sox don't seem to be able to get through to players and develop them. ... Anything else I say is repeating my positions. And don't forget my perfect team also has Cease and Tatis on it. You can't build a division contender with these studs? And how bout Semien who has put together a stellar career?

Edited July 10 by greg775

[Lip Man 1]

39 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I won't fight back and respond to the recent posts in this thread cause many of my arguments will be the same as I've given before. I will say a lot of my arguments don't consider Jerry and his cheapness cause for some reason I feel we can win in spite of him partly because of this gawd-awful division which the Sox have refused to dominate thru the years. In a nutshell, I personally feel it doesn't take much to compete in such a weak division and in my mind having special players like Robert and Crochet and the new Fedde are better on my team than some other team. It also would be nice to coach up guys like Eloy and Moncada and TA before that but the Sox don't seem to be able to get through to players and develop them. ... Anything else I say is repeating my positions. And don't forget my perfect team also has Cease and Tatis on it. You can't build a division contender with these studs? And how bout Semien who has put together a stellar career?

Greg: They had as much talent or more after the first rebuild than anyone else in the division. 

It led to a pair of first round playoff losses.

The Sox under JR simply don't have everything that is needed to consistently win from top level front office types to a medical training and conditioning staff that can actually keep players healthy to scouts and minor league developmental people.

I'm sorry you CAN NOT overcome JR's cheapness and disdain for his own fan base. Something happened to this franchise starting in 2007 and it has gotten consistently worse over time. 

[MikeKreevich]

8 hours ago, Tony said:

1. Never made a claim that because I have more posts, I'm more baseball savvy. 

2. Valuable perceptive? Or valuable perspective? Not really helping the old man argument with that one...

3. In regards to your question on "my timeline" and the "results that I seek" I've said for years now that none of it matters until Jerry is gone. A true, sustainable winner will not be built under Jerry as he won't invest to proper resources into the places investments need to be made, so we can get that out of the way right off the bat. I agree with you that a random playoff team is about the best we can hope for at this current point, similar to what we saw in 2020 and 2021. Currently, the Sox in 2024 are a ways off from that. Spending A LOT of money is the only way the Sox are competitive by 2026, and we can all agree that won't happen, so we're looking at 3-4 years of development and proper asset management before we should expect to see a respectable ball club. (The Sox did their last fire sale in 2016, took them 2017-2018-2019 to build things back up before being competitive in 2020 and 2021)

So using that timeline as our baseline...Crochet will no longer be under club control at that point, and Luis Robert would be on the last year of his deal during the 2027 season. If the Sox used both of those players to acquire 4-5 players that would be making their ML debuts in 2026-2027, you have six years of cost control with those players, and ideally can make a run during that window, adding some free agent pieces around the diamond to supplement that core group, like the Sox have done before (Grandal-Hendricks-Keuchel) 

Nice dig on the spelling error.  I wouldn't expect anything else from you.

[Tony]

41 minutes ago, MikeKreevich said:

Nice dig on the spelling error.  I wouldn't expect anything else from you.

Nice job completely ignoring my detailed response to your question. It's part of the reason most "Boomers" don't get the respect they think they deserve. When responded to with a logical response...you don't have one back. 

[MikeKreevich]

45 minutes ago, Tony said:

Nice job completely ignoring my detailed response to your question. It's part of the reason most "Boomers" don't get the respect they think they deserve. When responded to with a logical response...you don't have one back. 

Your daddy must love you.