GMs skeptical teams meet price for Robert

[MEANS]

55 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Aren't we all there?  Just waiting..

Look at all the pointless talk about how long it will take until we are competitive again...

[MEANS]

34 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

JR will spend when we have a reason to.

Sure, I mean he sure did last time....oh wait this just in....he didn't.

[WestEddy]

9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It is impressive to simultaneously take credit for something while disavowing it.

If you want to have this argument, why not just repost the old one you guys deleted? 

And if our system has gotten Vaughn and Sheets to top out their talent, that's a win. 

[WhiteSox2023]

4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

If you want to have this argument, why not just repost the old one you guys deleted? 

And if our system has gotten Vaughn and Sheets to top out their talent, that's a win. 

1st and 2nd round pick first basemen respectively are currently .700 OPS guys?

That’s more like failure.

Edited July 10 by WhiteSox2023

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

If you want to have this argument, why not just repost the old one you guys deleted? 

And if our system has gotten Vaughn and Sheets to top out their talent, that's a win. 

If you want to have this argument, have it.  I would definitely argue that Andrew Vaughn has gotten no where near his talent level.  I would also argue that Sheets isn't really done much either.  This misses the broader point that the Sox actually have a horrible history of drafting and developing their own talent.  If they had this ability, they wouldn't be looking at one of the worst seasons in baseball history and looking to sell of their talent to acquire it from somewhere else.  The whole reason this last round failed was because they couldn't develop hitters.

[WestEddy]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If you want to have this argument, have it.  I would definitely argue that Andrew Vaughn has gotten no where near his talent level.  I would also argue that Sheets isn't really done much either.  This misses the broader point that the Sox actually have a horrible history of drafting and developing their own talent.  If they had this ability, they wouldn't be looking at one of the worst seasons in baseball history and looking to sell of their talent to acquire it from somewhere else.  The whole reason this last round failed was because they couldn't develop hitters.

You seem to keep ignoring that the Hostetler didn't have good drafts, whereas Mike Shirley has. 

Of the higher level draftees the Sox had taken from 2016-2020,

2016 - Zack Collins was a controversial pick, in a horrible draft class. They couldn't fix the hitch in his swing. Alex Call is a 4th OF who was traded, and 2 other organizations haven't been able to tap into his "talent", either. Jameson Fisher - bad pick. 

2017 - Jake Burger - they got what they could out of him, and then for him. He seems developed as a hitter. Gavin Sheets? He's probably near his ceiling, oscillating between an OPS of .700 - .750. A lot of teams are running worse out there at 1B. Luis Gonzalez - traded. 2 other organizations haven't tapped into his talent. He's a 4th OF. 

2018 - Nick Madrigal - Controversial pick who actually did hit with the White Sox. He never developed as a fielder. Steele Walker - traded, 3 other organizations haven't been able to tap into his talent. Lency Delgado? High school SS who never hit. Probably a bad pick. 

2019 - Andrew Vaughn. Maybe this last 6 weeks is what he is. If so, I'd call that developed. James Beard - HS OF who never got going. Maybe a bad pick? 

I'm not going to get into the water polo star picked by the 10th round who never developed or college catchers who were drafted in the top ten rounds because they could sign at the minimum. The fact that they got later round picks like Romy Gonzalez or Zach Remillard to the majors belies an ability to develop these guys as hitters and fielders. 

I expect the mob to jump in, now, and mock Remy and Romy as examples, but Hostetler drafted like pure s%*#. Burger, Sheets and Madrigal do hit. They've been developed as hitters. Vaughn looks to be in that group, too. 

Contrast the Hostetler drafts with the progress shown by Shirley's picks. Tim Elko, Brooks Baldwin, Colson Montgomery are hitting or at least maintaining at higher levels. Jacob Gonzalez and George Wolkow look like raw talent that has been brought along early to have success at levels advanced for them. Caden Conner, Mikey Kane, Ryan Galanie, Rikuu Nishida - they all look like good picks who are excelling at their levels, and are progressing along. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, WestEddy said:

You seem to keep ignoring that the Hostetler didn't have good drafts, whereas Mike Shirley has. 

Of the higher level draftees the Sox had taken from 2016-2020,

2016 - Zack Collins was a controversial pick, in a horrible draft class. They couldn't fix the hitch in his swing. Alex Call is a 4th OF who was traded, and 2 other organizations haven't been able to tap into his "talent", either. Jameson Fisher - bad pick. 

2017 - Jake Burger - they got what they could out of him, and then for him. He seems developed as a hitter. Gavin Sheets? He's probably near his ceiling, oscillating between an OPS of .700 - .750. A lot of teams are running worse out there at 1B. Luis Gonzalez - traded. 2 other organizations haven't tapped into his talent. He's a 4th OF. 

2018 - Nick Madrigal - Controversial pick who actually did hit with the White Sox. He never developed as a fielder. Steele Walker - traded, 3 other organizations haven't been able to tap into his talent. Lency Delgado? High school SS who never hit. Probably a bad pick. 

2019 - Andrew Vaughn. Maybe this last 6 weeks is what he is. If so, I'd call that developed. James Beard - HS OF who never got going. Maybe a bad pick? 

I'm not going to get into the water polo star picked by the 10th round who never developed or college catchers who were drafted in the top ten rounds because they could sign at the minimum. The fact that they got later round picks like Romy Gonzalez or Zach Remillard to the majors belies an ability to develop these guys as hitters and fielders. 

I expect the mob to jump in, now, and mock Remy and Romy as examples, but Hostetler drafted like pure s%*#. Burger, Sheets and Madrigal do hit. They've been developed as hitters. Vaughn looks to be in that group, too. 

Contrast the Hostetler drafts with the progress shown by Shirley's picks. Tim Elko, Brooks Baldwin, Colson Montgomery are hitting or at least maintaining at higher levels. Jacob Gonzalez and George Wolkow look like raw talent that has been brought along early to have success at levels advanced for them. Caden Conner, Mikey Kane, Ryan Galanie, Rikuu Nishida - they all look like good picks who are excelling at their levels, and are progressing along. 

So we haven't actually drafted or developed any real contributing major leaguers, but we sure hope we do soon.  I know the lists of names are nice, but between a fair amount of regression by many of our top hitting prospects so far this year, and a dearth of actual quality hitting prospects, especially those we actually drafted ourselves, I am not going to be ready to say things have actually changed until we have guys at the major league level actually doing something.  Listing interesting low level minor leaguers doesn't actually demonstrate change here.  Developing actual average or better major leaguers actually shows progress.

[WestEddy]

14 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So we haven't actually drafted or developed any real contributing major leaguers, but we sure hope we do soon.  I know the lists of names are nice, but between a fair amount of regression by many of our top hitting prospects so far this year, and a dearth of actual quality hitting prospects, especially those we actually drafted ourselves, I am not going to be ready to say things have actually changed until we have guys at the major league level actually doing something.  Listing interesting low level minor leaguers doesn't actually demonstrate change here.  Developing actual average or better major leaguers actually shows progress.

You have to draft talent to be able to develop it. I contend we haven't been doing that until 2020. It's disingenuous to pretend things haven't changed until you can point to a positional player who has excelled for the last 4 years in the majors. 

It's also nice you can point backwards and criticize the previous regime's failures. It's not my job to make you say that "things have changed". Speaking only for the draft, when they obtained talent, they developed it. Not being able to develop Larry King's or Jerry Reinsdorf's sons drafted at 39 isn't really a failure of the development system. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 hours ago, T R U said:

Dude Lance Lynn is 37 years old and was absolutely terrible last season and he got $11 million per year. Giolito was not good last year, he got $19 million per year. You are out of touch with reality if you don't think Crochet would command $20 million RIGHT NOW if he entered free agency this off-season, never mind what hes going to cost in 2 seasons if he has established himself as an ace starting pitcher.

 

 Crochet can't command $20M RIGHT NOW so how can I be out of touch with reality?

It's impossible. You seem to be the one out of touch with reality because the reality is he's making 800K RIGHT NOW.

You're talking  hypothetically not reality.

You have him hypothetically healthy for the end half of this year and 2 more years after that . We have no idea if he gets traded or if any team will meet the asking price for a pitcher likely nearing the end of the line for this seasons workload. Your talking best case scenario.

Worst case scenario is he gets hurt and gets non tendered like Rodon.

Guys like Lynn and Giolito had track records of success and seasons of many innings in healthy years. Crochet has none of those things.

 But apparently they are equal in your reality.

 

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

You have to draft talent to be able to develop it. I contend we haven't been doing that until 2020. It's disingenuous to pretend things haven't changed until you can point to a positional player who has excelled for the last 4 years in the majors. 

It's also nice you can point backwards and criticize the previous regime's failures. It's not my job to make you say that "things have changed". Speaking only for the draft, when they obtained talent, they developed it. Not being able to develop Larry King's or Jerry Reinsdorf's sons drafted at 39 isn't really a failure of the development system. 

I am not going to say "things have changed" until things have actually changed more than someone's title.  I remember saying at one point a long time ago, that a guy like Tim Anderson being drafted and developed was a sign the Sox were making gains in those areas, because I so wanted to manifest it into happening.  I was 100% wrong, as it was a fluke, and not a trend.

It is disingenuous to claim credit for something that hasn't actually happened yet.

[fathom]

Vaughn has been a complete bust.  Still a negative fWAR player for his career.

[WestEddy]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I am not going to say "things have changed" until things have actually changed more than someone's title.  I remember saying at one point a long time ago, that a guy like Tim Anderson being drafted and developed was a sign the Sox were making gains in those areas, because I so wanted to manifest it into happening.  I was 100% wrong, as it was a fluke, and not a trend.

It is disingenuous to claim credit for something that hasn't actually happened yet.

Again, I'm not going to play the game of "tee-hee, you can't make me say yes" with you. 

I have tried to show that the list of names at A ball are different than the warm bodies thrown out there during Hostetler's time drafting. These are players who are dominating their level, and playing their way to the next, not just being promoted to make room for the next draft class. MLB players have taken clear steps forward in their approaches to hitting. Korey Lee and Gavin Sheets are two examples. Lenyn Sosa holding his own is another. 

Colson Montgomery wasn't a big name that fell to the Sox. He was an unknown who they developed into a top 20 prospect. No, I can't show you a list of 5 year major leaguers. Again, it's not accurate to deride a development system that you know has changed and is producing hitters until they have All-Stars multiple years. 

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

1st and 2nd round pick first basemen respectively are currently .700 OPS guys?

That’s more like failure.

In what realm is topping out at a .700 OPS out of 1st and 2nd round picks a win. Holy s%*# the delusion...

[southsider2k5]

I will also note here is that I keep getting mocked for the idea that the Sox are YEARS away from being decent again, let alone contending.  But we are talking about 4 full drafts that have happened since the 2019 changes being referenced here and we have exactly zero bats on the roster from the 2020 draft and onward.  So as I get told how quickly things can change, yet we have no one here offensively from the last 4 drafts should tell you that this isn't a quick process, even with all of the amazing changes that have taken place.

Even if a qualitative change actually took place we are four and three full years since those changes took place, and we have zero to show for it, so as we look to draft this year and projecting into the future, 4 full seasons means we shouldn't expect substance from this draft to show up in that same time period going the other way, because the drafts and development since 2020 have been so successful, right?  That is the middle of 2028 to start getting these guys on to the roster, and probably longer for them to actually taste success at the major league level.  Otherwise you have to start declaring that these changes haven't been a panacea for what is needed.  It's either you are expecting too much from the current changes, or the changes we already made aren't paying off.

[WestEddy]

5 minutes ago, fathom said:

Vaughn has been a complete bust.  Still a negative fWAR player for his career.

He certainly hasn't lived up to his first round pedigree, but he has positive bWAR, and his fWAR has been dinged hard for playing RF. 

[Tnetennba]

2 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Again, I'm not going to play the game of "tee-hee, you can't make me say yes" with you. 

I have tried to show that the list of names at A ball are different than the warm bodies thrown out there during Hostetler's time drafting. These are players who are dominating their level, and playing their way to the next, not just being promoted to make room for the next draft class. MLB players have taken clear steps forward in their approaches to hitting. Korey Lee and Gavin Sheets are two examples. Lenyn Sosa holding his own is another. 

Colson Montgomery wasn't a big name that fell to the Sox. He was an unknown who they developed into a top 20 prospect. No, I can't show you a list of 5 year major leaguers. Again, it's not accurate to deride a development system that you know has changed and is producing hitters until they have All-Stars multiple years. 

Are you competing for the best minor league system, or trying to build a playoff caliber team? Dominating A-ball is great, but it's still A-ball. There's a damn long way to go from good in A-ball to manifesting success at the Major League level.

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Again, I'm not going to play the game of "tee-hee, you can't make me say yes" with you. 

I have tried to show that the list of names at A ball are different than the warm bodies thrown out there during Hostetler's time drafting. These are players who are dominating their level, and playing their way to the next, not just being promoted to make room for the next draft class. MLB players have taken clear steps forward in their approaches to hitting. Korey Lee and Gavin Sheets are two examples. Lenyn Sosa holding his own is another. 

Colson Montgomery wasn't a big name that fell to the Sox. He was an unknown who they developed into a top 20 prospect. No, I can't show you a list of 5 year major leaguers. Again, it's not accurate to deride a development system that you know has changed and is producing hitters until they have All-Stars multiple years. 

It is 100% accurate to claim that the White Sox have not drafted and development major league talent as of today, because it literally has not happened.  You might think it could be happening, but it 100% has NOT HAPPENED.  Period, end of story.

[WestEddy]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I will also note here is that I keep getting mocked for the idea that the Sox are YEARS away from being decent again, let alone contending.  But we are talking about 4 full drafts that have happened since the 2019 changes being referenced here and we have exactly zero bats on the roster from the 2020 draft and onward.  So as I get told how quickly things can change, yet we have no one here offensively from the last 4 drafts should tell you that this isn't a quick process, even with all of the amazing changes that have taken place.

Even if a qualitative change actually took place we are four and three full years since those changes took place, and we have zero to show for it, so as we look to draft this year and projecting into the future, 4 full seasons means we shouldn't expect substance from this draft to show up in that same time period going the other way, because the drafts and development since 2020 have been so successful, right?  That is the middle of 2028 to start getting these guys on to the roster, and probably longer for them to actually taste success at the major league level.  Otherwise you have to start declaring that these changes haven't been a panacea for what is needed.  It's either you are expecting too much from the current changes, or the changes we already made aren't paying off.

In the 5-round draft of 2020, they took 5 pitchers. In 2021, 10 of the first 12 picks were pitchers. 2022, 6 of the first 7 were pitchers. So, it's fair to say they concentrated on pitching, first. Of those 4 drafts, 2 of the starting pitchers in their rotation have been drafted and developed. One made the All-Star team. I think that's evidence of good drafting and development on the pitching side. 

I don't think you really believe that a player selected in the last draft or two should be starting at the major league level, yet. So you're judging the entire development system on two high school infielders taken at 1 at & 2 in 2021, and a glove first college SS taken in the 4th round in 2022. 2 offensive players drafted by the White Sox from 2021 onward are now at AAA. But the entire system is suspect until they're making All-Star teams. 

I agree that they won't be competitive next year. I don't think it will take until 2031, either. The trades they make this TDL and winter meetings will net some offensive prospects closer to the bigs. 

[WestEddy]

13 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Are you competing for the best minor league system, or trying to build a playoff caliber team? Dominating A-ball is great, but it's still A-ball. There's a damn long way to go from good in A-ball to manifesting success at the Major League level.

Yes, and yes. Building a future playoff contender starts with building a strong minor league system. And the process has already started to build a strong minor league system, as evidenced by the players I've mentioned previously. 

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

In the 5-round draft of 2020, they took 5 pitchers. In 2021, 10 of the first 12 picks were pitchers. 2022, 6 of the first 7 were pitchers. So, it's fair to say they concentrated on pitching, first. Of those 4 drafts, 2 of the starting pitchers in their rotation have been drafted and developed. One made the All-Star team. I think that's evidence of good drafting and development on the pitching side. 

I don't think you really believe that a player selected in the last draft or two should be starting at the major league level, yet. So you're judging the entire development system on two high school infielders taken at 1 at & 2 in 2021, and a glove first college SS taken in the 4th round in 2022. 2 offensive players drafted by the White Sox from 2021 onward are now at AAA. But the entire system is suspect until they're making All-Star teams. 

I agree that they won't be competitive next year. I don't think it will take until 2031, either. The trades they make this TDL and winter meetings will net some offensive prospects closer to the bigs. 

I didn't even mention the 22 or 23 drafts.  I do recall the 2021 draft being 20 rounds, plus any NDFAs, and not two rounds.

[WestEddy]

15 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It is 100% accurate to claim that the White Sox have not drafted and development major league talent as of today, because it literally has not happened.  You might think it could be happening, but it 100% has NOT HAPPENED.  Period, end of story.

I guess you're going to keep bouncing around until you say a sentence that cannot be disputed. And you are correct. Outside of Garret Crochet, they haven't draft and developed any "stars" on this current team. 

[WestEddy]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I didn't even mention the 22 or 23 drafts.  I do recall the 2021 draft being 20 rounds, plus any NDFAs, and not two rounds.

I have no idea what you're arguing here. I have shown that they concentrated on pitching in the 2020, 2021, and 2022 drafts, and that endeavor is already showing success at the ML level. 

[Tony]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

 

I expect the mob to jump in, now, and mock Remy and Romy as examples, but Hostetler drafted like pure s%*#. Burger, Sheets and Madrigal do hit. They've been developed as hitters. Vaughn looks to be in that group, too. 

 

Man alive, if this is what you are hanging your hat on...yikes. These are all below average Major Leaguers. 

[WestEddy]

4 minutes ago, Tony said:

Man alive, if this is what you are hanging your hat on...yikes. These are all below average Major Leaguers. 

You should probably read the whole string. I state that Hostetler did not have "good" draft classes. They developed what they could. 

[southsider2k5]

25 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I guess you're going to keep bouncing around until you say a sentence that cannot be disputed. And you are correct. Outside of Garret Crochet, they haven't draft and developed any "stars" on this current team. 

The same thing I have been saying the entire time.

The White Sox have not drafted and developed major league hitting at any real level at all.