Crochet Trade Updates (Nightengale)

[WestEddy]

25 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

The biggest thing the Sox had going for them was that John Allyn had the guts to see things were off the rails, fired basically everyone and brought in Roland Hemond and Chuck Tanner.

Things got better in a hurry.

That's not going to happen with JR so keeping Crochet and Robert do nothing to really move the needle to being a competent, winning franchise again.

So until new ownership arrives, keep getting prospects and hope.

That's all you've got right now. 

Yeah, and Roland Hemond started doing what Getz is about to do: trade off all the veterans for prospects. The Sox then went on to log 8 of 9 sub-.500 seasons, not posting a winning season until Reinsdorf and Einhorn bought the team. 

[baseball_gal_aly]

I think Getz is going for the opposite approach that Hahn did. He's trying to get as many quality prospects as he can in trades, rather than going for "quality over quantity" because the latter approach didn't work too well last time. 

Sometimes, these 50 FV guys overperform that outlook. 

[GreenSox]

17 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Yeah, and Roland Hemond started doing what Getz is about to do: trade off all the veterans for prospects. The Sox then went on to log 8 of 9 sub-.500 seasons, not posting a winning season until Reinsdorf and Einhorn bought the team. 

Hemond traded his veterans (late 20s; 30s)  for younger veterans (mid 20s).  The Ken Berry trade was something to behold.
He also brought in a great manager and pitching coach.

Edited July 21 by GreenSox

[WestEddy]

17 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Hemond traded his veterans (late 20s; 30s)  for younger veterans (mid 20s).  The Ken Berry trade was something to behold.
He also brought in a great manager and pitching coach.

That was an amazing trade. Tom Bradley is a forgotten name, but for 2 years, he was so great. 

[Lip Man 1]

43 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Yeah, and Roland Hemond started doing what Getz is about to do: trade off all the veterans for prospects. The Sox then went on to log 8 of 9 sub-.500 seasons, not posting a winning season until Reinsdorf and Einhorn bought the team. 

Luis Alvarado, Mike Andrews, Tom Bradley, Tom Egan, Jay Johnstone, Pat Kelly, Rick Reichardt, Vicente Rome and Ed Stroud weren't prospects.

They were competent Major league players who helped the Sox go from 56 wins (1970) to 79 (1971) in a single season, one of the biggest single season turnarounds in MLB history. To say nothing then about getting Dick Allen and Stan Bahnsen the following season.

It wasn't Hemond's or Tanner's fault Allyn's outside business interests went bust and the franchise almost couldn't meet payroll (and for all the good Veeck did, financially he wasn't any better) or that Stu Holcomb who had no business being in a MLB front office ordered Hemond to release, not trade, release any player who wouldn't agree to his initial contract offer.  

July 27, 1973 - Sox vice president Stu Holcomb ‘retired’ under pressure after his hard-line approach on salaries destroyed the 1973 White Sox.

When players wouldn’t come to terms with his initial offer, Holcomb ordered, then player personnel director Roland Hemond, to release them. Not try to compromise with them or try to trade them to get something back... but release them.

The Sox gave away Jay Johnstone, Ed Spiezio, Mike Andrews and Rick Reichardt. When Holcomb ordered Hemond to release 21-game winner Stan Bahnsen, Hemond and manager Chuck Tanner went to owner John Allyn. Hemond and Tanner threatened to quit if something wasn’t done. Allyn sided with the duo and Holcomb was history bringing some stability to the front office although the damage was already done.

When the Sox suffered injury after injury that year, using the disabled list 38 times, there was little depth to try to fill the gaping holes. They’d end the season in fifth place at 77-85 after leading the division in late May.

[GreenSox]

44 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

That was an amazing trade. Tom Bradley is a forgotten name, but for 2 years, he was so great. 

Yea and he brought in Jay Johnstone, dispatching the hapless Syd O'Brien as part of that trade.  I don't know what the Angels were thinking.  Berry was an excellent defender, but he couldn't hit a lick.  

But the 1970 Sox also had a few good young players who were blossoming:  Melton, Carlos May and Ed Herrmann.  They also had a reliever Wilbur Wood who they turned into a dominant starter.

Anyway Chris, I guess you got your Wilbur Wood moment.  Now you need to make 3 Ken Berry trades.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

2 hours ago, baseball_gal_aly said:

I think Getz is going for the opposite approach that Hahn did. He's trying to get as many quality prospects as he can in trades, rather than going for "quality over quantity" because the latter approach didn't work too well last time. 

Sometimes, these 50 FV guys overperform that outlook. 

He's also loaded up and made developing pitching a priority. He knows Jerry is never going to hand out a big contract for a top of the line pitcher. They've signed hitters in the past. Hitters are also safer on the FA market. It's still far from great, but at least there is a different direction.

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, GreenSox said:

Yea and he brought in Jay Johnstone, dispatching the hapless Syd O'Brien as part of that trade.  I don't know what the Angels were thinking.  Berry was an excellent defender, but he couldn't hit a lick.  

But the 1970 Sox also had a few good young players who were blossoming:  Melton, Carlos May and Ed Herrmann.  They also had a reliever Wilbur Wood who they turned into a dominant starter.

Anyway Chris, I guess you got your Wilbur Wood moment.  Now you need to make 3 Ken Berry trades.

From my interview with Roland (God rest his soul...)

Roland Hemond’s Best Trades: (in chronological order...)

1. November 30, 1971: White Sox send Ken Berry, Syd O’Brien and Billy Wynne to California for catcher Tom Egan, starting pitcher Tom Bradley and outfielder Jay Johnstone. (Author’s Note: Bradley would win 15 games with a sub three ERA in both 1971 and 1972. Egan served as a very good backup to Ed Herrmann and Johnstone added speed, pinch hitting abilities and a crazy character to keep the clubhouse relaxed.)

2. December 2, 1971: White Sox send Tommy John and Steve Huntz to Los Angeles for first baseman Dick Allen. (Author’s Note: The trade that saved the franchise. Allen won the M.V.P. award in 1972 leading the Sox to a near division championship. His ability to hit for power and average was unmatched on the South Side for years. Named to three All-Star teams.)

3. December 2, 1971: White Sox send Rich McKinney to the Yankees for starting pitcher Stan Bahnsen. (Author’s Note: Bahnsen would win 54 games in three and a half seasons in Chicago including 21 in 1972.)

4. November 19, 1972: White Sox send Tom Bradley to San Francisco for outfielder Ken Henderson and pitcher Steve Stone. (Author’s Note: Henderson was a Gold Glove winning, power hitting center fielder while Stone added depth to the pitching staff. Bradley never regained the form that he showed with the Sox and was out of baseball by 1975.)

5. August 14, 1973: White Sox acquire starting pitcher Jim Kaat on waivers from Minnesota. (Author’s Note: Kaat was a two time 20 game winner for the Sox in 1974 and 1975. Made the All-Star team in 1975. Won 45 games in two and a quarter years in Chicago.)

6. June 15, 1975: White Sox send pitchers Stan Bahnsen and “Skip” Pitlock to Oakland for outfielder Chet Lemon and pitcher Dave Hamilton. (Author’s Note: Lemon would turn into one of the top center fielders in baseball with the Sox making the All-Star team twice. Hamilton was a regular contributor to the 1977 White Sox team with four wins and nine saves.)

7. December 11, 1975: White Sox send third baseman Bill Melton and pitcher Steve Dunning to California for first baseman Jim Spencer and outfielder Morris Nettles. (Author’s Note: Melton had a bad back and had worn out his welcome getting into a shouting match in a Milwaukee hotel lobby with broadcaster Harry Caray. Spencer meanwhile won a Gold Glove for his defensive prowess in 1977 saving many errors. He also had 18 home runs and 69 RBI’s for the “South Side Hit Men”, twice driving in eight runs in a game.)

8. April 4, 1977: White Sox send shortstop “Bucky” Dent to the Yankees for outfielder Oscar Gamble, pitchers LaMarr Hoyt and Bob Polinsky and cash. (Author’s Note: The deal was made because the Sox could not afford to resign Dent. Gamble blasted 31 home runs for the “South Side Hit Men.” Hoyt would become a very good starting pitcher winning the Cy Young Award after going 24-10 in 1983.)

9. July 10, 1979: White Sox send pitcher Jack Kucek to the Phillies for infielder Jim Morrison. (Author’s Note: When the Sox were being rebuilt in the early 80's Morrison provided stability and power at either second or third base. Had three seasons of double figure home run totals.)

10. December 12, 1980: White Sox send pitcher “Tex” Wortham to Montreal for second baseman Tony Bernazard. (Author’s Note: Bernazard was a switch hitter with speed and the ability to hit to all fields. He was a good second baseman in his two and a half years with the Sox. Hemond then sent him to Seattle for Julio Cruz a move that crystalized the 1983 team.)

11. January 25, 1983: White Sox send pitchers Steve Trout and Warren Brusstar to the Cubs for infielders Scott Fletcher and Pat Tabler along with pitchers Dick Tidrow and Randy Martz. (Author’s Note: Perhaps Hemond’s greatest deal. Roland used the free agent compensation rules that were in use at the time to inquire about getting Cubs future Hall of Fame pitcher Ferguson Jenkins whom they left unprotected. Cubs G.M. Dallas Green got word of it and quickly made this deal. Part of it was the promise by Hemond that the Sox would not take Jenkins. Fletcher and Tidrow were important parts of the 1983 team. Tabler was then traded to Cleveland for Jerry Dybzinski adding another part to the club.)

12. January 20, 1984: White Sox select starting pitcher Tom Seaver from the free agent compensation pool. (Author’s Note: The future Hall of Famer would win 32 games in two years with the Sox including his 300^th beating the Yankees 4-1 on August 4, 1985.)

13. December 6, 1984: White Sox send pitcher LaMarr Hoyt and two minor leaguers to San Diego for pitchers Tim Lollar and Bill Long along with infielder/outfielder Luis Salazar and shortstop Ozzie Guillen. (Author’s Note: Hoyt would see his career quickly end after the 1985 season due to substance abuse. Lollar and Salazar helped the 1985 team to a winning record but Guillen would become the Rookie of the Year in 1985 and win a Gold Glove in 1990 along with becoming a three time All-Star.)

Roland Hemond’s Best Deal That Never Happened:

As part of the major rebuilding effort after the disaster of 1970, Hemond had worked out a trade with the Washington Senators that would have sent left handed relief specialist Darold Knowles to the White Sox for relief pitcher Wilbur Wood. However Wood was holding out and never signed a 1971 contract. Therefore the Sox couldn’t deal him until he did. By the time Wood signed the Senators were no longer interested.

It turned out to be a major blessing for the Sox.

Wood would blossom into one of the top starting pitchers of the decade, winning 20 or more games four times and being named to the All-Star team three times. He would be named a member of the Sox Team of the Century in 1999. Sometimes the best deals are the ones you never make!

[GreenSox]

7 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

From my interview with Roland (God rest his soul...)

Roland Hemond’s Best Trades: (in chronological order...)

Wood would blossom into one of the top starting pitchers of the decade, winning 20 or more games four times and being named to the All-Star team three times. He would be named a member of the Sox Team of the Century in 1999. Sometimes the best deals are the ones you never make!

Wilbur Wood might have made the Hall of Fame had that line drive not busted his knee; and he definitely would have made it had he not spent the first 1/2 of his career in the pen.  Big assist to Ed Herrmann.

Thanks for the Hemond recap, Lip.   They don't make trades like that much anymore.  But we could do for another Santiago-Eaton trade.

Edited July 22 by GreenSox

[Johno]

I was really hoping the Sox traded both Crochet and Feede before they pitched after the AllStar game.   The way this season has gone,don’t take any chances something bad could happen, like one of them getting hurt.

[DirtySox]

Soooooo true.

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, DirtySox said:

Soooooo true.

And pretty much every single hitter in the Yankees top 10 too.  They have been awful this year.  Arias was thought of the next superstar, and has been awful.  Pereiera has been really bad with the Yankees.  Lombard has been awful in A ball.

 

The only guy who has had a good season is Dominguez and  I would be shocked if they let him go.

[peanut33tillman]

It sucks the two teams I think clearly being the most desperate for crochet will be YanKees and Dodgers as both teams are all in (especially the dodgers). I just don’t care for how we match up with either one. 

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, peanut33tillman said:

It sucks the two teams I think clearly being the most desperate for crochet will be YanKees and Dodgers as both teams are all in (especially the dodgers). I just don’t care for how we match up with either one. 

This will be a significant issues from everyone's posts. They don't like the fit with NY, LA, StL or Seattle. We know Baltimore won't trade their top pieces. So who are the trading partners? 

[peanut33tillman]

3 minutes ago, ptatc said:

This will be a significant issues from everyone's posts. They don't like the fit with NY, LA, StL or Seattle. We know Baltimore won't trade their top pieces. So who are the trading partners? 

I think most would be on board with doing a deal with Seattle if we move Robert. A top 3 farm likely in baseball. I see your point though. I think Elias is too chicken to pony up the prospects for crochet but I think a guy like Fedde could be in his wheelhouse. I still if I had to guess think we move Crochet to either LAD or SD. Robert gets moved in the winter is my guess. 

[Chisoxfn]

1 hour ago, DirtySox said:

Soooooo true.

Its why the whole - Yankees won't give him up was nuts to begin with. A, he isn't the headliner or shouldn't be and B) if you aren't willing to give him up, you aren't getting much anything anyway.  Was always a nothing burger in the media and fact people thought it meant anything around Crochet's value was kind of nuts.  

[ptatc]

13 minutes ago, peanut33tillman said:

I think most would be on board with doing a deal with Seattle if we move Robert. A top 3 farm likely in baseball. I see your point though. I think Elias is too chicken to pony up the prospects for crochet but I think a guy like Fedde could be in his wheelhouse. I still if I had to guess think we move Crochet to either LAD or SD. Robert gets moved in the winter is my guess. 

I thought people ruled out Seattle as they weren't going to give up their position player prospects they have as they need more hitting. 

[Chicago White Sox]

22 minutes ago, ptatc said:

This will be a significant issues from everyone's posts. They don't like the fit with NY, LA, StL or Seattle. We know Baltimore won't trade their top pieces. So who are the trading partners? 

Who doesn’t like Seattle’s system?

[DirtySox]

Seattle is the best fit by far. Other than Logan Evans, all of their top guys are position players. They have 8 guys in BA's top 100, 7 of them are position players.

[peanut33tillman]

7 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I thought people ruled out Seattle as they weren't going to give up their position player prospects they have as they need more hitting. 

i haven’t heard that. Just listened to Robert Murray on baseball insiders and he says they are going to be aggressive. Didn’t mention anything of not shipping out positional prospects. 

[Bob Sacamano]

Since Seattle needs help on offense, maybe we can package DeJong or Pham, someone with Robert. Neither of those two are bringing back anything of significance by themselves anyway.

Looks like everyone in their infield is hitting terribly.

Edit: and their outfield is bad ha Pham works in a platoon with Raley.

Edited July 22 by Bob Sacamano

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

41 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Since Seattle needs help on offense, maybe we can package DeJong or Pham, someone with Robert. Neither of those two are bringing back anything of significance by themselves anyway.

Looks like everyone in their infield is hitting terribly.

Edit: and their outfield is bad ha Pham works in a platoon with Raley.

and they cut France so they can have Vaughn too lol

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

and they cut France so they can have Vaughn too lol

I know you’re mostly joking, but it sounds like they are calling up Locklear

[Bob Sacamano]

4 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

and they cut France so they can have Vaughn too lol

 

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I know you’re mostly joking, but it sounds like they are calling up Locklear

I actually originally had Vaughn in the post but then compared him to France and realized he’s not really an upgrade so I took him out lol

Edited July 22 by Bob Sacamano

[Tnetennba]

2 hours ago, ptatc said:

I thought people ruled out Seattle as they weren't going to give up their position player prospects they have as they need more hitting. 

Their positional prospects are too far away to help his year. They need hitting help right now. Their starting staff could carry them to the World Series if they could just score runs.