Chisoxfn Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Before 2003 began, I said Mark Prior was a future HOF'er. You guys roasted me over the Foreman grill...LMAO. Kerry Wood, Clement, Cruz and Zambrano on the other hand? Overhyped. I wasn't one that roasted ya. I've annoited Prior in that category for a while. I may of said let him pitch, but i do believe I've always said only injuries woulds top him from a few cy Youngs, but I definately remember that debate. Overhyped yes, but Wood on the most part was huge in the playoffs and dominating. But even against the Cubs, if you keep it close, turn it over to your pen which kicks butt and then tests out the Cubs crappy pen, well I'd take those chances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 On the plus side, KW wasn't the GM at that time. It was wrong how he was treated, but kind words and the ability to play in a big market and get on a ton of highlight shows could be reason enough for him to come back. Especially because I believe the Sox have a manager he'd like to play for. I think a lot of fun to watch players will like to come to the Sox. Of course you have to get JR and KW to be smart with the money they have and try to get JR to pony up a bit more, but the Sox could dfeinately position themselves to have an OF of Reed, Cameron, Maggs next year and afford to have good pitching too. And do it at like 53 mill. I swear I could at least throw so many ideas to KW and just let him and his people here them out so at least they see where soem of us are coming from. My wish list include Perez...another starter along with Perez...two quality relievers....Mike Cameron. Thats it. After reading what I have read in the past 20 minutes, that's about who's on my wish list too. I don't think if I had it the way I wanted that Maggs would be patrolling RF, but I could definately see an OF of like Lee, Cameron, Rowand/Sanders/Reed/Borchard, etc. I think if the Sox are really serious about contending next year, they just forget the Jon Garland project in turning him into a good consistent pitcher and get a guy who will eat you innings....ala Sidney Ponson. You trade Konerko and Jose for Perez and Izturis(gets rid of two problems in LA, adds two very good players for us and gets rid of 2 ugly salaries) along with a few sweeteners here and there(maybe we give them Rauch and/or Diaz, etc), and you clear $13 mill out. Trade Maggs for Percival(with a few sweeteners), and you save another $7.5 mill, because that's what Percy makes this year. You then have $20.5 mill to spend elsewhere, and that is very beneficial. Maybe make an offer of $5-7 mill for Cameron(we'll say he takes $6 mill), though IMO he's worth more around $3-5 mill. Bring in Ponson for $5-8 mill a year(we'll say he takes $7 mill), which strengthens your rotation. At that point, your rotation is set, and it looks a little like this: Elo Buehrle Ponson Perez Garland With the $7.5 mill you have left, you get a 2Bman, and whether it be Robbie or Vina or whoever....maybe Kennedy is included in the Percy trade, I don't know. Just as an example, I'll say we resign Robby for $2.5 mill a year, which leaves us with $5 mill to spend on anything. You then sign a guy like Brad Fullmer or David Ortiz, possibly resign with Daubach or heck, maybe you wanna wing it and try out Ross Gload....who the hell knows. However, with 1B, you can put almost anyone there, maybe even Frank Thomas....who knows. I'll say you sign Brad Fullmer for $1.5 mill. The lineup is set and looks something like this Alomar 2B Rowand RF Lee LF Fullmer 1B Thomas DH Cameron CF Crede 3B Olivo C Izturis SS Not a great lineup, in fact, not a good lineup at all....but you do add a few Ozzie-type guys(I can't exactly remember the word KW used, but it was something like scratchers or fighters or something like that). With that lineup, you have 5 guys tops who can provide you with power, though Thomas and Cameron will both probably strike out about 275 times combined, Cameron with 150-160 or so, and Thomas with 115-125. If we got lucky, Rowand busts out and jacks about 15-25....somewhere in that neighborhood. As for the pen, you have 3 givens - Percy, Marte, and Wunsch. We hope to trade Koch to the Mets, and just hope to get Royce Ring back, and maybe another reliever too. Gets rid of another $6.5 mill or so(which brings us to about $11.5 mill available) and strengthens the farm system just a little. With that $11.5 mill, you try to sign Hawkins for about $5 mill(a lot, but is well worth it), and you try to sign someone like Chad Fox for $1-$2 mill, and then you use a minor leaguer(say Diaz, because he didn't get traded to LA), and your bullpen is set. Percival, Marte, Hawkins, Wunsch, Fox, Diaz....and maybe another pitcher. Something like that. With the bench, you have about $5 mill left. Resign Graffy for $2 mill, either resign Sandy for $500,000, or if he retires, give it to either Burke or Rivera. Harris will make about $400,000, and then maybe someone like Darren Bragg or Singleton or Shinjo, etc, or you use Ross Gload as a 1B/OF type. With the last spot, you go with the best cheap bat available....maybe someone like Matt Stairs. If I had a plan, it would be something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApplingsRevenge Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 After reading what I have read in the past 20 minutes, that's about who's on my wish list too. I don't think if I had it the way I wanted that Maggs would be patrolling RF, but I could definately see an OF of like Lee, Cameron, Rowand/Sanders/Reed/Borchard, etc. I think if the Sox are really serious about contending next year, they just forget the Jon Garland project in turning him into a good consistent pitcher and get a guy who will eat you innings....ala Sidney Ponson. You trade Konerko and Jose for Perez and Izturis(gets rid of two problems in LA, adds two very good players for us and gets rid of 2 ugly salaries) along with a few sweeteners here and there(maybe we give them Rauch and/or Diaz, etc), and you clear $13 mill out. Trade Maggs for Percival(with a few sweeteners), and you save another $7.5 mill, because that's what Percy makes this year. You then have $20.5 mill to spend elsewhere, and that is very beneficial. Maybe make an offer of $5-7 mill for Cameron(we'll say he takes $6 mill), though IMO he's worth more around $3-5 mill. Bring in Ponson for $5-8 mill a year(we'll say he takes $7 mill), which strengthens your rotation. At that point, your rotation is set, and it looks a little like this: Elo Buehrle Ponson Perez Garland With the $7.5 mill you have left, you get a 2Bman, and whether it be Robbie or Vina or whoever....maybe Kennedy is included in the Percy trade, I don't know. Just as an example, I'll say we resign Robby for $2.5 mill a year, which leaves us with $5 mill to spend on anything. You then sign a guy like Brad Fullmer or David Ortiz, possibly resign with Daubach or heck, maybe you wanna wing it and try out Ross Gload....who the hell knows. However, with 1B, you can put almost anyone there, maybe even Frank Thomas....who knows. I'll say you sign Brad Fullmer for $1.5 mill. The lineup is set and looks something like this Alomar 2B Rowand RF Lee LF Fullmer 1B Thomas DH Cameron CF Crede 3B Olivo C Izturis SS Not a great lineup, in fact, not a good lineup at all....but you do add a few Ozzie-type guys(I can't exactly remember the word KW used, but it was something like scratchers or fighters or something like that). With that lineup, you have 5 guys tops who can provide you with power, though Thomas and Cameron will both probably strike out about 275 times combined, Cameron with 150-160 or so, and Thomas with 115-125. If we got lucky, Rowand busts out and jacks about 15-25....somewhere in that neighborhood. As for the pen, you have 3 givens - Percy, Marte, and Wunsch. We hope to trade Koch to the Mets, and just hope to get Royce Ring back, and maybe another reliever too. Gets rid of another $6.5 mill or so(which brings us to about $11.5 mill available) and strengthens the farm system just a little. With that $11.5 mill, you try to sign Hawkins for about $5 mill(a lot, but is well worth it), and you try to sign someone like Chad Fox for $1-$2 mill, and then you use a minor leaguer(say Diaz, because he didn't get traded to LA), and your bullpen is set. Percival, Marte, Hawkins, Wunsch, Fox, Diaz....and maybe another pitcher. Something like that. With the bench, you have about $5 mill left. Resign Graffy for $2 mill, either resign Sandy for $500,000, or if he retires, give it to either Burke or Rivera. Harris will make about $400,000, and then maybe someone like Darren Bragg or Singleton or Shinjo, etc, or you use Ross Gload as a 1B/OF type. With the last spot, you go with the best cheap bat available....maybe someone like Matt Stairs. If I had a plan, it would be something like that. Grinders....Williams wanted grinders.....I hope Erstad isn't one of those, LOL! We need grinders that stay off the DL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Grinders....Williams wanted grinders.....I hope Erstad isn't one of those, LOL! We need grinders that stay off the DL. Grinders! That's it. I couldn't remember. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn12 Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Why, oh why do alot of you all wanna trade Koch for Roger FREAKIN Cedeno?!? Koch has had one bad year. Has Roger Cedeno had more than one GOOD one? And for the cost of $4 mill more?? WTF? i don't understand. Batting Year Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS 1995 LOS 40 42 4 10 2 0 0 3 3 10 1 0 .238 .283 .286 .568 1996 LOS 86 211 26 52 11 1 2 18 24 47 5 1 .246 .326 .336 .663 1997 LOS 80 194 31 53 10 2 3 17 25 44 9 1 .273 .362 .392 .753 1998 LOS 105 240 33 58 11 1 2 17 27 57 8 2 .242 .317 .321 .638 1999 NYM 155 453 90 142 23 4 4 36 60 100 66 17 .313 .396 .408 .804 2000 HOU 74 259 54 73 2 5 6 26 43 47 25 11 .282 .383 .398 .781 2001 DET 131 523 79 153 14 11 6 48 36 83 55 15 .293 .337 .396 .733 2002 NYM 149 511 65 133 19 2 7 41 42 92 25 4 .260 .318 .346 .664 2003 NYM 148 484 70 129 25 4 7 37 38 86 14 9 .267 .320 .378 .698 Career 968 2917 452 803 117 30 37 243 298 566 208 60 .275 .343 .374 .717 Thats Cedeno's career numbers. I see back-to-back subpar years, a career OBP of .343, only 9 points better than the once never-taking a walk Carlos Lee. I'm sorry, I just don't see this move being a positive for the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Grinders! That's it. I couldn't remember. Thank you Considering how busy they are gonna be trade wise, I think its gonna be hard for them to make much of a splash early in free agency. The key for the Sox will be to unload Koch/Konerko and one of Lee/Maggs. I am not involved in the contract situation, but if I think I could get Maggs at around 8 or 9 mill for 4 years and maybe give him some incentives like an MVP is an addition 2 mill ro something like that to give him the ability to make more...then I'd keep him cause he can really be a cornestone of an offense and put him with Thomas and I'd be comfortable especially with someone like Cameron and Crede around that and then Reed, some youngsters and a leadoff hitter. For Ponson, I wouldn't give him that kind of money and I'm a huge Ponson fan...I'd rather wait and see what solid pitcher is out there and grab him as well as getting Odalis, plus Lee could very well be the trade bait in getting your 2nd starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Why, oh why do alot of you all wanna trade Koch for Roger FREAKIN Cedeno?!? Koch has had one bad year. Has Roger Cedeno had more than one GOOD one? And for the cost of $4 mill more?? WTF? i don't understand. Batting Year Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS 1995 LOS 40 42 4 10 2 0 0 3 3 10 1 0 .238 .283 .286 .568 1996 LOS 86 211 26 52 11 1 2 18 24 47 5 1 .246 .326 .336 .663 1997 LOS 80 194 31 53 10 2 3 17 25 44 9 1 .273 .362 .392 .753 1998 LOS 105 240 33 58 11 1 2 17 27 57 8 2 .242 .317 .321 .638 1999 NYM 155 453 90 142 23 4 4 36 60 100 66 17 .313 .396 .408 .804 2000 HOU 74 259 54 73 2 5 6 26 43 47 25 11 .282 .383 .398 .781 2001 DET 131 523 79 153 14 11 6 48 36 83 55 15 .293 .337 .396 .733 2002 NYM 149 511 65 133 19 2 7 41 42 92 25 4 .260 .318 .346 .664 2003 NYM 148 484 70 129 25 4 7 37 38 86 14 9 .267 .320 .378 .698 Career 968 2917 452 803 117 30 37 243 298 566 208 60 .275 .343 .374 .717 Thats Cedeno's career numbers. I see back-to-back subpar years, a career OBP of .343, only 9 points better than the once never-taking a walk Carlos Lee. I'm sorry, I just don't see this move being a positive for the team. I don't understand either. I actually see two good years and two solid years....but nothing spectacular, and definately not worth more then $4-5 mill, let alone the $10 he's going to get next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I'd rather get absolutely nothing in return, which I think in the end could be a viable option...cause the Mets could take him and try working with him. If it pays off he will appreciate it and give them a discount and they are set with a close and didn't give up much more then a hill of beans. Otherwise they eat the contract which they can afford to do and they don't have a long term deal on their hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn12 Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 We'd be on the hook for Cedeno in 2005 also, and I don't think we will need him in 2004, much less 2005. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I'm sure that in KW's eyes Erstad is the definition of grinder and will covet him, especially after coming so close to getting him 2 seasons ago. Stick him in Center or stick him at First, whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I'm sure that in KW's eyes Erstad is the definition of grinder and will covet him, especially after coming so close to getting him 2 seasons ago. Stick him in Center or stick him at First, whatever. I've always like Ertsad. I'm just afraid that his best years are behind him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Lopez Ghost (old) Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I think it could be both as the Angels need starting pitching. The problem with this trade is we still have a poor rotation. Until we address starting pitching, these types of moves are just treading water. I would think with these moves, why not try and enter the Nomar race? $$$$$$$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 13, 2003 Author Share Posted November 13, 2003 I've always like Ertsad. I'm just afraid that his best years are behind him. The thing I most worry bout Erstad is he throws his body around the park so much he's bound to get injured for at least 20 games of a season. I heard he mite consider goin to 1B, so if we ship out Paulie, he could possibly play there, and not take major playin time away from Rowand or Reed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 The thing I most worry bout Erstad is he throws his body around the park so much he's bound to get injured for at least 20 games of a season. I heard he mite consider goin to 1B, so if we ship out Paulie, he could possibly play there, and not take major playin time away from Rowand or Reed. That sounds like a viable alternative to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I am not involved in the contract situation, but if I think I could get Maggs at around 8 or 9 mill for 4 years and maybe give him some incentives like an MVP is an addition 2 mill ro something like that to give him the ability to make more I think you are smoking crack..... if you think that is realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 but if I think I could get Maggs at around 8 or 9 mill for 4 years and maybe give him incentives Mucho boozo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I think you are smoking crack..... if you think that is realistic. Well I mean 8 or 9 mill per year and incentives that could push it to 10 or 11 per year. I'm assuming your referring to 8 mill over 4 years. But I don't think Maggs is worth much more then 8 or 9 mill a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Well I mean 8 or 9 mill per year and incentives that could push it to 10 or 11 per year. Come to think of it, it's not booze or crack. It's called "Slowly allowing JR's bargain mentality penetrate our very essence". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Well I mean 8 or 9 mill per year and incentives that could push it to 10 or 11 per year. I'm assuming your referring to 8 mill over 4 years. But I don't think Maggs is worth much more then 8 or 9 mill a season. I understand what you and/or I may think Maggs is worth, but I also know what his agent thinks he is worth and there is no way in hell he would take an incentive-laden contract like that. Maggs will get good money next year. Not sure where it will be, but it will happen. Keep in mind that the owners have never been able to keep a united front for long when it comes to holding down salaries. All it takes is for one or two of them to bust out and pay stupid money to anyone and many others will follow like untrained puppy dogs, not knowing where they are going, but not wanting to get left out. The days of the $25 million contract may be over, but don't think that players in their prime that are producing big numbers will go backwards without a fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 The days of the $25 million contract may be over, but don't think that players in their prime that are producing big numbers will go backwards without a fight. Edgar Martinez was easily as good as Maggs was in 2003 and he signed for 3 Million. Are Maggs's declining/unspectacular defense and baserunning worth extra 11-12 mill? How many 950 OPS seasons does Maggs have? I ask because guys like Bonds, A-Rod, Manny, Sheffield, Vladimir, Giles, Sosa, Edmonds, Pujols, Helton, Thome, Sweeney, Giambi and other super stars who may indeed command mid-teen salary even in the face of declining market trends...can put up that kind of production in their sleep. Hell, even Thomas who most people left for dead, at 35 busted out for 955 OPS. Again, I COULD understand the steep demands IF Maggs was a rising star whose best years lied ahead of him OR if he was coming off career-best a 130-RBI campaign. Unfortunately, MANY buyers are going to think Maggs top-out in 2002, and as such, given post-CBA market, is NOT worth anything close to 5/75, incentives or not. I would offer him 4/42 deal with incentives, but the problem is: 1) if he has a great 2004, he won't take it 2) if he has a 2003-esque 2004, he won't be worth it to money-less Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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