2024 Official Draft Thread - Day 2

[TaylorStSox]

3 minutes ago, Quin said:

This is three years old, but it's not like the Sox have had their fortunes change for the better in the past 3 years.

 

I think there's enough uncertainty in the MLB draft that it's not necessarily results driven. It's about making the best picks available at the time. Nothing the Sox have done stands out as absolutely terrible with the exception of Madrigal. That was just a stupid pick that only the biggest Aaron Rowand fans would like. Fulmer made sense in the context of usage. The rest weren't egregious. Drafting baseball players is really fucking hard and the vast majority of teams fail at it. 

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

The conversation is Vaughn, Burger and Collins. The only one of those picks I don't like is Burger, and it's only because of health. I still kind of have hope for Vaughn and Collins had such a good eye and natural power that I get the pick. Collins just didn't work out. It happens. Beyond that, the last position player we took was Anderson, and he was a star until his life destroyed his career. 

I could have made this exact post to say how bad things have been.  This also has to be more than an occasional 1st round pick who isn't awful to mediocre. 

[Quin]

3 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

I think there's enough uncertainty in the MLB draft that it's not necessarily results driven. It's about making the best picks available at the time. Nothing the Sox have done stands out as absolutely terrible with the exception of Madrigal. That was just a stupid pick that only the biggest Aaron Rowand fans would like. Fulmer made sense in the context of usage. The rest weren't egregious. Drafting baseball players is really fucking hard and the vast majority of teams fail at it. 

The vast majority of teams are better than the White Sox at it.

I say this as someone that likes Mike Shirley's approach because he's so very anti-White Sox.

[WhiteSox2023]

6 minutes ago, Quin said:

The vast majority of teams are better than the White Sox at it.

I say this as someone that likes Mike Shirley's approach because he's so very anti-White Sox.

They seem to be good at drafting and/or developing pitchers and horrendous at drafting and/or developing position players.

[bmags]

The white Sox seem good at stuff basically only if you compare them to the Rockies.

[TaylorStSox]

28 minutes ago, Quin said:

The vast majority of teams are better than the White Sox at it.

I say this as someone that likes Mike Shirley's approach because he's so very anti-White Sox.

I'm not sure how to quantify this, but I would bet money that the Sox have drafted well relative to their draft position. Our problem isn't the draft, it's that we're so fucking conservative in how we develop. 

[TaylorStSox]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

I could have made this exact post to say how bad things have been.  This also has to be more than an occasional 1st round pick who isn't awful to mediocre. 

Just go back and look at our first round draft history. It's insane that we've had so few picks in the top 10. In several drafts, we didn't even have a 1st round pick, let alone a top 10 pick. It's not the draft, it's everything else. 

Edited July 16 by TaylorStSox

[WhiteSox2023]

46 minutes ago, bmags said:

The white Sox seem good at stuff basically only if you compare them to the Rockies.

Basically, the NL version of our Sox.

Edited July 16 by WhiteSox2023

[Chicago White Sox]

That’s a really rough day 2.   Let’s hope there is something coming tomorrow…I’m definitely worried they blew their entire load on the two prep picks.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

10 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

Some people were pissed about Gonzalez, but that's just because Keith Law didn't like him and Law has a cult. 

[oldsox]

9 hours ago, bmags said:

The white Sox seem good at stuff basically only if you compare them to the Rockies.

True. I can attest to this statement, having lived in Denver for 40 years or so.

[Backwash07]

First of all thanks to the die hards that have kept this thread going for the past year.  It has informed and entertained me. I like many am underwhelmed with this draft and not real confident for day 3 today for any nice surprises. I have a couple takes. the Sox being so conservative over the the past few years hurts them so bad to get top possible talent. They seem to be playing checkers while other teams are playing chess with how to use their money pool.  Through day 2 of the draft many will say Cle, Cin, and Pitt have had three of the better drafts.  The first two got lucky with the lottery and how this draft played out, really show what an advantage that is throughout the first ten rounds not just round one.  Pittsburgh though had less money to spend, less early picks, and slightly later picks and seem to have prospered. In a vacuum, Hagen Smith was a very good pick that I can get behind. However, if he is getting slot, it really hurt the rest of the draft so far.  Maybe Griffen was the pick under slot even with Smith available. Then I can picture instead of Bonemer, Sloan would have been in play at 43 with the savings.  then instead of the high upside Larsen who sounds to be over slot you could have picked a college pitcher like Hurd/Beem/Holman. In this somewhat realistic situation instead of Smith, Bonemer, Larson we would have received Griffen, Sloan, Hurd and probably would have been at similar money overall going into day 2. Personally  by a small amount, i would have liked the second scenario.  Thoughts? 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

I don't think they would give Sloan $3M in any scenario.  I don't think they had him valued that highly.  They would likely give that money to a guy like Kash Mayfield but not Sloan.

You also have to remember the key is to hit on that first pick. Pittsburgh already fucked up this scenario when they underslotted Henry Davis at 1-1 and he's awful.  They totally biffed 1-1. He's so bad he can't play ahead of Joey Bart or Yasmani Grandal.  With the first pick  I'll take the high floor/high ceiling college lefty over a low floor/high ceiling HS position player with a questionable hit tool. 

[bmags]

Quote

• All the talk about how much effort the White Sox made on players who got taken before No. 5 makes Hagen Smith sound a bit like a consolation prize at times. In addition to lauding Smith, Shirley detailed that the Sox draft room was 60/40 in preference for Smith over Chase Burns, which presumably is just in terms of college pitching prospects.

from soxmachine.

Doesn't sound like sox thought it was a two player draft.

[JoshPR]

19 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

Local kid for me. 

[bmags]

11 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

Just go back and look at our first round draft history. It's insane that we've had so few picks in the top 10. In several drafts, we didn't even have a 1st round pick, let alone a top 10 pick. It's not the draft, it's everything else. 

 

I just cant stress how much I think this is just you being familiar with the white sox so being impressed that they draft someone that made majors, but when looking at team draft performance over a 13 year period I'm pretty sure this may only beat the Angels, Rockies for number of long term starters. It also relies on being like really impressed we got a backup catcher or 2b but what stands out is the complete lack of impact hitters with the exception of Laumann.

[Dam8610]

14 hours ago, Quin said:

This is three years old, but it's not like the Sox have had their fortunes change for the better in the past 3 years.

 

I think more than anything this chart reflects the organization's investment in post draft development. There are very few players that go into the MLB draft that don't need a significant amount of development, and usually those players are selected 1.1 or 1.2. Beyond that, if you are getting results out of your draft class, it's because you're investing in helping the players you drafted make the corrections they need to make to become productive MLB players. More than anything, I believe it reflects a lack of investment in development of players that the White Sox are 4th worst on that list. Picking the best talent won't matter if you can't develop that talent.

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

I think more than anything this chart reflects the organization's investment in post draft development. There are very few players that go into the MLB draft that don't need a significant amount of development, and usually those players are selected 1.1 or 1.2. Beyond that, if you are getting results out of your draft class, it's because you're investing in helping the players you drafted make the corrections they need to make to become productive MLB players. More than anything, I believe it reflects a lack of investment in development of players that the White Sox are 4th worst on that list. Picking the best talent won't matter if you can't develop that talent.

For a cheap franchise this should be the top priority and not another Tim Hill.

[WestEddy]

15 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

Collins just didn't work out.

In retrospect, the 2016 draft looks pretty weak. I think the Dodgers' pick at 32 is the only stand out star of that first round. 

[GreenSox]

15 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

The conversation is Vaughn, Burger and Collins. The only one of those picks I don't like is Burger, and it's only because of health. I still kind of have hope for Vaughn and Collins had such a good eye and natural power that I get the pick. Collins just didn't work out. It happens. Beyond that, the last position player we took was Anderson, and he was a star until his life destroyed his career. 

Burger was early in the rebuild; is it really wise to start with unathletic players? And then they followed it up with another unathletic corner guy, Sheets.
Of course, that's where the Sox stand now; I hope we demand athleticism defensive chops in these trades we're about to make.
 

[ptatc]

4 hours ago, GreenSox said:

Burger was early in the rebuild; is it really wise to start with unathletic players? And then they followed it up with another unathletic corner guy, Sheets.
Of course, that's where the Sox stand now; I hope we demand athleticism defensive chops in these trades we're about to make.
 

Everyone would love that. However players that are really good hitters AND really good on defense tend not to be available as the other team wants to keep them. They are rare. 

The key is to find the balance, excellent defense with passable offense or the other way around. 

The "athletes" don't always turn out to be good ballplayers. 

[GreenSox]

1 hour ago, ptatc said:

Everyone would love that. However players that are really good hitters AND really good on defense tend not to be available as the other team wants to keep them. They are rare. 

The key is to find the balance, excellent defense with passable offense or the other way around. 

The "athletes" don't always turn out to be good ballplayers. 

in the draft at #10 there are options beyond unathletic corner guys. (Burger still isn't in shape).
The key is to find players who they believe that they develop the hit or defense that they currently lack.  Find the unranked players who will be ranked tomorrow (and avoid the reverse).   You have out scout/project the opposition. 
And we don't need to rebuild to a team that plays terrible D, like we did last time.

Edited July 17 by GreenSox

[ptatc]

18 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

in the draft at #10 there are options beyond unathletic corner guys. (Burger still isn't in shape).
The key is to find players who they believe that they develop the hit or defense that they currently lack.  Find the unranked players who will be ranked tomorrow (and avoid the reverse).   You have out scout/project the opposition. 
And we don't need to rebuild to a team that plays terrible D, like we did last time.

That is one way. However those players have a higher fail rate then someone who can actual hit. Take burger. They drafted solely based on his EV being one of the best in the nation. He has become an MLB player. This is a win as the vast majority don't.

All teams need players who are good at both they are just really hard to find so they try to blend both. 

I'm not disagreeing with you ,it just not as easy as "draft or trade for players who are both good hitters and good at defense."

For years KW drafted athletes and was soundly ridiculed for not drafted baseball players. When the farm system didn't produce they switched to drafting baseball players. He was then knocked for not getting the impact athletes.

Edited July 17 by ptatc

[southsider2k5]

19 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

in the draft at #10 there are options beyond unathletic corner guys. (Burger still isn't in shape).
The key is to find players who they believe that they develop the hit or defense that they currently lack.  Find the unranked players who will be ranked tomorrow (and avoid the reverse).   You have out scout/project the opposition. 
And we don't need to rebuild to a team that plays terrible D, like we did last time.

Why hasn't anyone else tried this?

[GreenSox]

2 hours ago, ptatc said:

That is one way. However those players have a higher fail rate then someone who can actual hit. Take burger. They drafted solely based on his EV being one of the best in the nation. He has become an MLB player. This is a win as the vast majority don't.

All teams need players who are good at both they are just really hard to find so they try to blend both. 

I'm not disagreeing with you ,it just not as easy as "draft or trade for players who are both good hitters and good at defense."

For years KW drafted athletes and was soundly ridiculed for not drafted baseball players. When the farm system didn't produce they switched to drafting baseball players. He was then knocked for not getting the impact athletes.

Burger's not a win. Neither is Vaughn.    They aren't even average regulars.
And i agree that you won't have a whole lot of wins.  But Burger and Vaughn would need OPS > .850 to be wins. 
Canon's a win.  He looks like he'll be an average starter.  Cool.
Crochet is a blowout win.

I know it's obvious and a lot easier for me to say than it is to do.  But we just can't have a bunch of DHs again and a well below par D and expect to really win.
 

Edited July 17 by GreenSox