How the F are we ever going to build an offense?

[Bob Sacamano]

7 hours ago, tray said:

Rumored interest in Vaughn.

https://www.si.com/mlb/yankees/news/white-sox-slugger-linked-to-yankees-as-potential-trade-candidate-grant9

Yeah it seems like there are some teams that can use him in a platoon at 1B/DH but do teams really want to burn a bench spot on a non-versatile player that only plays 1 position and only against lefties?

[Tnetennba]

22 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Can’t draft and develop them, the owner refuses to pay for them…

You would think the Sox would have prioritized trading for more position players rather than apparently waiting until right now.  But they had to prioritize trading for what Jerry refuses to pay for even more which is starting pitching.  Eventually they will have to spend money.

There is only one solution which others have already stated.  ☠️ 

There is no path to success with JR at the helm. The restraints placed on the inept people he hires eventually lead to where we are. It is the inevitable end to every backwards thought but into action. It is inescapable. 

[Tnetennba]

On 7/27/2024 at 9:24 AM, Timmy U said:

At this point, older guys like me may never see a decent Sox team again in our lifetimes. Basically, Reinsdorf needs to be gone in some manner, a new regime has to enter and then that regime will need 5 years to build. We’re looking at a Pittsburgh-style bottom-scraping decade or more. Competing by 2027 is a dream. I think they’ll produce a bunch of pitchers to sell and keep the payroll low and sell a lot of Campfire milkshakes. This period is going to be the nadir of Sox franchise history. And there have already been some serious low points.

Spot on. 2021 might be the last “competitive” White Sox team we see for the next decade. They may not lose 120 every year, but we are in for years of bad ugly baseball. The multiple failed attempts at building competitive teams in the 2010s have nothing on the likely failures coming in the later half of the 2020s. It really is that dire IMO. 

[GreenSox]

Well, I'll try. This actually violates some of my preferences such as not using our best trade chips for corners.  But alas:

1) Trade Crochet and Kopech for Rushing, Outman and 3 good pitching prospects.
2)Trade Fedde for the best SS/3B/OF prospect he can find; maybe 2.
Offseason:
3)Trade Thorpe for a SS/3B/OF prospect.
Addendum:  Vaughn, Moncada, Sheets, Lopez, Eloy, all hit the bricks.
2025
4) Play Colas/Julks/Fletcher/DeLoach.  One of them develops into an average starter.  Another one develops into a platoon bat.
5) Give Sosa time in OF; work him toward being a utility player.  His bat may work, but we'll see.
6) Robert is resurgent and is traded for 2 good hitting prospects SS/3B/OF"
7)Baldwin develops into an average ML 2B.
8 ) Quero gets his first taste of the majors and is the real deal

At the end of 2025 we have:
C- Lee and Quero; Rushing 3rd catcher
1B  Rushing
2B Baldwin
SS and 3B and LF:  one of the prospects from Fedde/Thorpe/Robert trade.
CF  Outman
RF:  The Colas/F.letcher/DeLoach winner
Will leave plenty of $$ for a judicious FA signing or 2.
That should get us competitive; need at last 2 boppers, which need to come from some of the above and/or FA.

 

Edited July 28 by GreenSox

[WhiteSox2023]

16 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Well, I'll try. This actually violates some of my preferences such as not using our best trade chips for corners.  But alas:

1) Trade Crochet and Kopech for Rushing, Outman and 3 good pitching prospects.
2)Trade Fedde for the best SS/3B/OF prospect he can find; maybe 2.
Offseason:
3)Trade Thorpe for a SS/3B/OF prospect.
Addendum:  Vaughn, Moncada, Sheets, Lopez, Eloy, all hit the bricks.
2025
4) Play Colas/Julks/Fletcher/DeLoach.  One of them develops into an average starter.  Another one develops into a platoon bat.
5) Give Sosa time in OF; work him toward being a utility player.  His bat may work, but we'll see.
6) Robert is resurgent and is traded for 2 good hitting prospects SS/3B/OF"
7)Baldwin develops into an average ML 2B.
8 ) Quero gets his first taste of the majors and is the real deal

At the end of 2025 we have:
C- Lee and Quero; Rushing 3rd catcher
1B  Rushing
2B Baldwin
SS and 3B and LF:  one of the prospects from Fedde/Thorpe/Robert trade.
CF  Outman
RF:  The Colas/F.letcher/DeLoach winner
Will leave plenty of $$ for a judicious FA signing or 2.
That should get us competitive; need at last 2 boppers, which need to come from some of the above and/or FA.

 

I don’t think that lineup would be competitive at all.

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I don’t think that lineup would be competitive at all.

Nor is Thorpe going to end the year with significant value.  We shall see. 

Kopech might end up with the highest return... similar to Fedde. 

[Tnetennba]

9 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I don’t think that lineup would be competitive at all.

I see a lot of mediocre performance in that lineup. They'd be lucky to reach .500 any given year.

[ScootsMcGoots]

If Philadelphia,  San Diego, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, KC, Cleveland and Baltimore all can be winning baseball teams, there is no reason the Chicago White Sox shouldnt be able to figure it out. At the very least on a cyclical basis. But alas, here we are.

Edited July 28 by ScootsMcGoots

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, ScootsMcGoots said:

If Philadelphia,  San Diego, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, KC, Cleveland and Baltimore all can be winning baseball teams, there is no reason the Chicago White Sox shouldnt be able to figure it out. At the very least on a cyclical basis. But alas, here we are.

They were doing it very well between 1981-2006. Something happened starting in 2007 and the results speak for themselves. 

[The Mighty Mite]

2 hours ago, ScootsMcGoots said:

If Philadelphia,  San Diego, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, KC, Cleveland and Baltimore all can be winning baseball teams, there is no reason the Chicago White Sox shouldnt be able to figure it out. At the very least on a cyclical basis. But alas, here we are.

They don’t have an owner like Reinsdork.

[The Beast]

On 7/27/2024 at 8:09 AM, Chicago White Sox said:

The title says it all.  We have one of the worst offenses in modern baseball history and little to no pieces that will be part of the next good one outside of possibly Robert (if not traded), Baldwin, & Lee.  As such, Getz will almost have to build an entire lineup from scratch which will be no easy feat.

And to make matters that much harder, a ton of our top positional prospects have struggled this year in Colson (85 wRC+ in AAA), Ramos (66 wRC+ in AAA), & Gonzalez (77 wRC+ in AA).  The three more advanced OF prospects in our system in Colas (97 wRC+), Fletcher (89 wRC+), & DeLoach (93 wRC+) all look more like AAAA guys.  And there’s not a ton at the young levels to get excited about with Zavala hitting below .200 (despite an elite BB rate) and Burrowes mostly a disaster.  Wolkow is obviously highly intriguing but has a long ways to go with the K rate before he enters the long-term plan and Ronny Hernandez has been a pleasant surprise this year but is a 19 year old catcher in A ball.

As I‘ve stated before, I do have confidence in Bannister and the pitching side of things, but the outlook for the offense is beyond a bit terrifying.  What should the plan be there?  How do we go about building something capable and in a quick enough fashion to match up with the timeline of the pitching?  And have we ever seen a GM have to accomplish this large of a task in recent memory, especially with positional prospects harder than ever to pry from other organizations?

How did they build an offense in the 90s and early 2000s?

[caulfield12]

White Sox attendance per game

17,564

 

Indiana Fever

16,898

 

Fever will likely catch up to Sox average over their last 11 home games with just 16 games remaining and the playoff race heating up after the Olympic Break. 

[ScootsMcGoots]

11 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

White Sox attendance per game

17,564

 

Indiana Fever

16,898

 

Fever will likely catch up to Sox average over their last 11 home games with just 16 games remaining and the playoff race heating up after the Olympic Break. 

I'm amazed that the Sox even get that many people. Imagine if they were actually a good team, they'd probably average almost 30k.

[Chicago White Sox]

14 minutes ago, The Beast said:

How did they build an offense in the 90s and early 2000s?

The Sox used to be good at scouting and player development and had a LatAm pipeline that actually produced talent.  The world has changed massively since 2005 and we are rapidly behind the times.  The size of our analytics department  should be clear evidence of that.  We are also starting from complete scratch which is a task most GMs do not have to deal with.

[Rusty]

The fact that teams are even showing minor interest in players like AV, Dejong, Robert, Eloy is very telling.  It is a pretty clear indication that other organizations recognize that there are systemic failures within the White Sox and that they can “fix” them in their own organization.  Same thing with Kopech getting interest.  Dude has an ERA over 5 the last two years but people want him because the talent is there and they believe he’s been mismanaged.  Sadly Getz isn’t smart enough to realize that and assess that the Sox’ Development and Coaching staffs suck so the return on anyone will likely be very underwhelming.

[Lip Man 1]

7 minutes ago, ScootsMcGoots said:

I'm amazed that the Sox even get that many people. Imagine if they were actually a good team, they'd probably average almost 30k.

They have averaged more than that at various times. But it all comes down to winning. 

[Rusty]

8 minutes ago, ScootsMcGoots said:

I'm amazed that the Sox even get that many people. Imagine if they were actually a good team, they'd probably average almost 30k.

This team and market is a goldmine is you effectively manage the franchise.  That’s why all of us are so pissed off.  It would not be hard to make them into a perennial contender.  Honestly if they spent in FA, they could compete two years from now.  But they won’t.

[The Beast]

52 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The Sox used to be good at scouting and player development and had a LatAm pipeline that actually produced talent.  The world has changed massively since 2005 and we are rapidly behind the times.  The size of our analytics department  should be clear evidence of that.  We are also starting from complete scratch which is a task most GMs do not have to deal with.

But what happened to the Frank Thomas’, Alex Fernandez’s, Mark Buehrle’s and Tadahito Iguchi’s of the world? Poor drafting and not willing to pay the posting fee/get into bidding wars? You’re right that something is off and there are several factors but it just doesn’t seem to be so difficult.

[Chicago White Sox]

21 minutes ago, The Beast said:

But what happened to the Frank Thomas’, Alex Fernandez’s, Mark Buehrle’s and Tadahito Iguchi’s of the world? Poor drafting and not willing to pay the posting fee/get into bidding wars? You’re right that something is off and there are several factors but it just doesn’t seem to be so difficult.

The first two were super high picks which the new anti-tanking rules prevent us from accumulating in back to back seasons.  As for Iguchi, we got lucky that teams didn’t scout Asian to the extent they do today and that our GM had an actual eye for talent and identified him as a guy worth pursuing.  Beyond that, B & C tier free agents have fallen off massively in terms of value (lack of steroids perhaps?) so pulling off a 2005 offseason is near impossible nowadays.

[The Beast]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The first two were super high picks which the new anti-tanking rules prevent us from accumulating in back to back seasons.  As for Iguchi, we got lucky that teams didn’t scout Asian to the extent they do today and that our GM had an actual eye for talent and identified him as a guy worth pursuing.  Beyond that, B & C tier free agents have fallen off massively in terms of value (lack of steroids perhaps?) so pulling off a 2005 offseason is near impossible nowadays.

Then it seems like the White Sox will have to hit on the draft picks they do have, scout overseas and invest wisely. Which we know they haven’t with what has been said in other threads. Although I can withhold further judgement until after the deadline and into the offseason. Getz is still taking out the trash so maybe he will be able to spend more (wisely…) in the offseason and help himself from making stupid trades like Mena for Fletcher, as an example.

[mac9001]

Generally speaking if you keep losing 100+ a year you'll be in a position to add top shelf talent at least once every two years. Give is a solid 4-5 years and things will work themselves out.

[southsider2k5]

15 minutes ago, mac9001 said:

Generally speaking if you keep losing 100+ a year you'll be in a position to add top shelf talent at least once every two years. Give is a solid 4-5 years and things will work themselves out.

So about 2030...

[caulfield12]

https://www.perfectgame.org/players/playerprofile.aspx?ID=634446

Jose Contreras' son and Uribe Jr. will fix everything. 

[caulfield12]

Uribe .111/.514 in about 100 minor league at bats. 

He will absolutely fit right in. 

[tray]

Drafting ANY pitcher with the team's 1st round Draft pick when the team and our fans are desperate for hitting confounded me. When KC picked the hitter I wanted on the very next pick, I threw my shoe at the TV monitor.

For those old enough, recall that the WSox acquired Fisk, Luzinski and LeFlore in the 1981 off-season. Veeck signed Kittle on the advice of White Sox legend Billy Pierce. Those were among the moves that turned the franchise around in '83. The only mistake was that they didn't continue spending money for star players or make careful Draft choices and wise trades. The owner and management have to continue to get after it every year in order to maintain excellence. JR has been asleep at the wheel, and Rick Hahn and Kenny Williams were just waiting to retire on their lucrative pensions and earnings.

Edited July 29 by tray