Eloy to Baltimore

[ChiSox59]

9 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Almost as bad as grasping for Getz’s nuts and acting like he had nothing to do with this historically bad season.  You know, the team he actually put together last offseason?

Huh?  Where am I "grasping for Getz's nuts"?  I think he's done a pretty awful job all around.  I also think this was always going to take a few years.  Look, you can spend half your day on this board spewing negativity for the next however many years until the Sox are relevant again if you so please.  Certainly your right.  The organization is an absolute dumpster fire at the moment.  But I am at least willing to see things through a bit knowing this wasn't going to be a good team in 2024 and 2025 no matter who the manager or GM were.  I would have like our POS owner to make an actual GM hire, but he didn't and Getz is here and likely will be for awhile.  Since I am a White Sox fan, I'll certainly hope for the best.  I don't pretend to think WhiteSox2023 or I are more qualified for the job. 

[southsider2k5]

10 hours ago, tray said:

A lot of people that are miserable and cannot find anything positive to say after a player leaves or show an ounce of appreciation and good will, agree with you. So what, I don't care.

Eloy wore red gloves because his dad had cancer.  He has a great personality and love for the game.

His  combined season average career numbers compare pretty favorably to Vaughn.

Eloy        AB   1875    BA   .271    OPS .791

Vaughn   AB   1880    BA   .251    OPS .721

Being an immigrant of color unfamiliar with the language never stopped Eloy from having great relationships with fans like us that attend games.  It won't be easy to replace his Ernie Banks attitude and demeanor on the field or the excitement he brought every time he came to the plate.

I hope he has a good run with the O's this year. I will be watching.

For Eloy his entire stint with the White Sox centered around not having one ability.  Availability.  And when he was available, he was usually walking wounded.  For a guy who was one of the top hitting prospects in the game to go absolutely no where during his six years year in a White Sox uniform when he should have been owning the game of baseball, both with his obvious charisma, and with his hitting ability is disappointing for most fans.  Coming along and trying to talk down to everyone who feels this way, and then to drag the corpse of Andrew Vaughn who was never in his league to begin with as some sort of coping mechanism really doesn't achieve much.

Bottom line:  Eloy Jimenez was a massive failure and one of the faces of the Sox failure, along with guys like Michael Kopech, and is going to be remembered on the south side as such.

[WhiteSox2023]

8 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Huh?  Where am I "grasping for Getz's nuts"?  I think he's done a pretty awful job all around.  I also think this was always going to take a few years.  Look, you can spend half your day on this board spewing negativity for the next however many years until the Sox are relevant again if you so please.  Certainly your right.  The organization is an absolute dumpster fire at the moment.  But I am at least willing to see things through a bit knowing this wasn't going to be a good team in 2024 and 2025 no matter who the manager or GM were.  I would have like our POS owner to make an actual GM hire, but he didn't and Getz is here and likely will be for awhile.  Since I am a White Sox fan, I'll certainly hope for the best.  I don't pretend to think WhiteSox2023 or I are more qualified for the job. 

Sorry, I didn’t mean you directly.  I just meant some people in general.  You seem to be fair and balanced in your critique.

[harkness99]

when he starts hitting the ball in the air ill say he is making a come back....

 

until then im not sold on Eloy.

[Kyyle23]

15 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Eloy went 5-9 when he was with the White Sox.  Eloy will go 0-12 when he's with the Orioles because that's what he does but no one will say a word about it.  This s%*# is so fucking stupid.  

I would say stupid is making a thread about the wondrous accomplishments of Kelenic and then complaining in this thread about stupid fucking s%*#

[Kyyle23]

12 hours ago, tray said:

A lot of people that are miserable and cannot find anything positive to say after a player leaves or show an ounce of appreciation and good will, agree with you. So what, I don't care.

Eloy wore red gloves because his dad had cancer.  He has a great personality and love for the game.

His  combined season average career numbers compare pretty favorably to Vaughn.

Eloy        AB   1875    BA   .271    OPS .791

Vaughn   AB   1880    BA   .251    OPS .721

Being an immigrant of color unfamiliar with the language never stopped Eloy from having great relationships with fans like us that attend games.  It won't be easy to replace his Ernie Banks attitude and demeanor on the field or the excitement he brought every time he came to the plate.

I hope he has a good run with the O's this year. I will be watching.

The guy who loves to call everyone else miserable is the most miserable of them all, for fuckin sure

sox are 60 damn games under .500 and your feelings are hurt on this site for saying Eloy can go.  FOH

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

The guy who loves to call everyone else miserable is the most miserable of them all, for fuckin sure

Not to mention what an odd flex this is... Like are Sox fans supposed to be happy right now?  This is quite literally the worst season in modern baseball happening right in front of us.  Are we supposed to be celebrating?  Nah, keep the kool-aid bro.

[wrathofhahn]

This trade was dumb salary dump when we should be trying to spend money to build an asset base.

It's so hard to be a fan of this team because they are run by morons.

Edited August 5 by wrathofhahn

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

This trade was dumb salary dump when we should be trying to spend money to build an asset base.

It's so hard to be a fan of this team because they are run by morons.

The Sox can literally pay him a fraction of the same contract in free agency if they want him.  Baltimore will decline his option and he will be a free agent in 3 months.  Of all of the moves to be mad about, this is the absolutely last one to lose sleep over.

[wrathofhahn]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

The Sox can literally pay him a fraction of the same contract in free agency if they want him.  Baltimore will decline his option and he will be a free agent in 3 months.  Of all of the moves to be mad about, this is the absolutely last one to lose sleep over.

I find this doubtful if he continues to hit.

We also moved Kopech who'd we replace them with? Washed vets. We should be buying low on the Kopechs, Eloys, and Carsons of the world and seeing if we can turn around someone.

Instead its more filler and just trash that noone wants and never will build any sort of value.

[JoeC]

2 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

We should be buying low on the Kopechs, Eloys, and Carsons of the world and seeing if we can turn around someone.

Instead its more filler and just trash that noone wants and never will build any sort of value.

So you’re saying we should be buying low on our own filler and “just trash” that no one wants instead?

[Lip Man 1]

3 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

I find this doubtful if he continues to hit.

We also moved Kopech who'd we replace them with? Washed vets. We should be buying low on the Kopechs, Eloys, and Carsons of the world and seeing if we can turn around someone.

Instead its more filler and just trash that noone wants and never will build any sort of value.

While I understand your point when was the last time and how often has a struggling player come to the Sox and start to play a lot better? 

[southsider2k5]

9 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

I find this doubtful if he continues to hit.

We also moved Kopech who'd we replace them with? Washed vets. We should be buying low on the Kopechs, Eloys, and Carsons of the world and seeing if we can turn around someone.

Instead its more filler and just trash that noone wants and never will build any sort of value.

Nah, we shouldn't be wasting time on guys like this who are at, or near, free agency and haven't proven themselves or that they can stay healthy.  Eloy WAS trash that no one wanted, hence  using having to pick up all but about $2 million of his contract to even get a AAA reliever in exchange for him.

[wrathofhahn]

16 minutes ago, JoeC said:

So you’re saying we should be buying low on our own filler and “just trash” that no one wants instead?

Kopech and Eloy weren't trash they were high upside guys. 

We loved to trash them because we expected them to be key pieces of our roster but there were both guys who had the potential build much more value.

in particular, Kopech, who will not cost a fortune and has an additional year. Eloy had that option year that was valuable if he hits well he has a 1.22 OPS since the trade noone expects that to continue but if he finishes with 850 to 900 ops it's getting picked up. Guys like Josh got 2/33 some team will give him 1/16. Dylan Carlson was someone Stl wanted to move, so why was not he included in the deal? We needed those at bats for sheets? 

He's under control til 2027 former prospect who can play all three OF positions so if you can fix him he's either valuable to the sox or in a trade. It's whatever TB got him instead because they actually know how to retool a roster. We'll go out and sign another pillar trade him for trash and everyone will say see we got something for him not asking the question why are we wasting the time with the pillars of the world in the first place

Edited August 5 by wrathofhahn

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, wrathofhahn said:

Kopech and Eloy weren't trash they were high upside guys. 

We loved to trash them because we expected them to be key pieces of our roster but there were both guys who had the potential build much more value.

in particular, Kopech, who will not cost a fortune and has an additional year. Eloy had that option year that was valuable if he hits well he has a 1.22 OPS since the trade noone expects that to continue but if he finishes with 850 to 900 ops it's getting picked up. Guys like Josh got 2/33 some team will give him 1/16. Dylan Carlson was someone Stl wanted to move, so why was not he included in the deal? We needed those at bats for sheets? 

If some team was willing to give Eloy that kind of contract, they Sox wouldn't have had to give him away and pay his contract.  Kopech was an uncoachable trainwreck here, who has one more season until free agency, and hasn't shown he can be trusted.  Will teams take a chance on them?  Sure.  But at a fraction of the cost you are talking about here.  If teams really wanted them, they would have done better than a give away and a throw in on the market.

 

[wrathofhahn]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

If some team was willing to give Eloy that kind of contract, they Sox wouldn't have had to give him away and pay his contract.  Kopech was an uncoachable trainwreck here, who has one more season until free agency, and hasn't shown he can be trusted.  Will teams take a chance on them?  Sure.  But at a fraction of the cost you are talking about here.  If teams really wanted them, they would have done better than a give away and a throw in on the market.

 

I agree. For that reason, so they recover or gain any kind of value, you should hold onto them.

If not, you let them go as free agents and move on. These guys with that kind of stuff are genuinely hard to find in Major League Baseball; you can not find enough worthy bounce-back candidates to fill a roster.

In actuality, there is not a better way to get impact prospects then these guys having a bounce back year as an Erick Freede is an example of that. We should be trying to fill our roster full of these guys and moving them when their value is at their highest point or they are about to be free agents not moving them when they have control and they have almost no trade value. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, wrathofhahn said:

I agree. For that reason, so they recover or gain any kind of value, you should hold onto them.

If not, you let them go as free agents and move on. These guys with that kind of stuff are genuinely hard to find in Major League Baseball; you can not find enough worthy bounce-back candidates to fill a roster.

In actuality, there is not a better way to get impact prospects then these guys having a bounce back year as an Erick Freede is an example of that. We should be trying to fill our roster full of these guys and moving them when their value is at their highest point or they are about to be free agents not moving them when they have control and they have almost no trade value. 

Eloy Jimenez is at full pledged free agency, there isn't enough control in signing him for one year at full price in free agency for him to matter, even if he succeeds.  Fedde was a freak candidate because he went to SK and completely rebuilt his pitch selection and style, and still had doubt in his existence as an MLB starter.  Unless Eloy has somewhere he plans on going to rebuild his groundball swing and his health, there isn't much going to change there.

[JoeC]

25 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

Kopech and Eloy weren't trash they were high upside guys. 

We loved to trash them because we expected them to be key pieces of our roster but there were both guys who had the potential build much more value.

in particular, Kopech, who will not cost a fortune and has an additional year. Eloy had that option year that was valuable if he hits well he has a 1.22 OPS since the trade noone expects that to continue but if he finishes with 850 to 900 ops it's getting picked up. Guys like Josh got 2/33 some team will give him 1/16. Dylan Carlson was someone Stl wanted to move, so why was not he included in the deal? We needed those at bats for sheets? 

He's under control til 2027 former prospect who can play all three OF positions so if you can fix him he's either valuable to the sox or in a trade. It's whatever TB got him instead because they actually know how to retool a roster. We'll go out and sign another pillar trade him for trash and everyone will say see we got something for him not asking the question why are we wasting the time with the pillars of the world in the first place

They were high upside guys who became trash, much like Fedde a couple of years ago.

I don’t necessarily disagree with the idea that we should be giving guys like Eloy / Kopech a shot, but the specific guys in this case (Eloy and Kopech) clearly weren’t going to be valuable whatsoever with the Sox. Getting out of Eloy’s contract, any of it, is a win.

There’s a lot of money to be made, I guess, in being able to clearly identify when players turn from “high upside” to “trash.” Major league benches are full of those guys.

 

Again, I should mention that I agree with your overall take that we should fill our roster with those types of guys. I just wanted to point out that there isn’t a huge difference between “trash” and “formerly high upside.”

[Snopek]

46 minutes ago, JoeC said:

So you’re saying we should be buying low on our own filler and “just trash” that no one wants instead?

As the old saying goes, "one man's trash is that same man's same trash why on earth is he digging through his own garbage bin"

[joejoesox]

1 hour ago, wrathofhahn said:

Kopech and Eloy weren't trash they were high upside guys. 

We loved to trash them because we expected them to be key pieces of our roster but there were both guys who had the potential build much more value.

in particular, Kopech, who will not cost a fortune and has an additional year. Eloy had that option year that was valuable if he hits well he has a 1.22 OPS since the trade noone expects that to continue but if he finishes with 850 to 900 ops it's getting picked up. Guys like Josh got 2/33 some team will give him 1/16. Dylan Carlson was someone Stl wanted to move, so why was not he included in the deal? We needed those at bats for sheets? 

He's under control til 2027 former prospect who can play all three OF positions so if you can fix him he's either valuable to the sox or in a trade. It's whatever TB got him instead because they actually know how to retool a roster. We'll go out and sign another pillar trade him for trash and everyone will say see we got something for him not asking the question why are we wasting the time with the pillars of the world in the first place

Eloys BAL #s will be be  below replacement level in 2 wks

Edited August 5 by joejoesox

[hi8is]

7 hours ago, joejoesox said:

Eloys BAL #s will be be  below replacement level in 2 wks

You can never discount the White Sox effect. Guaranteed Rate Logo is a prophecy.

[wrathofhahn]

14 hours ago, joejoesox said:

Eloys BAL #s will be be  below replacement level in 2 wks

He has never been below replacement level until this season. I have much more faith in his bat than, clearly, most of the board does. I am kind of confused as to why people on this board think he can't hit when he has been dealing with soft tissue injuries the entire year. You guys think he forgot how to hit? He is a career. 800 OPS hitter.

This isn't the result of his current hitting either; I said it at the time of the trade. To me, it just was a dumb bet because all it did was save JR money this year. If he finishes with a.850 OPS or better, that option is getting picked up, and he will have good trade value. I feel like some people are still stuck in 2015 prices. Josh Bell got 2/33, coming off a.780 Ops year that is the  market floor.

His injury history may prevent him from getting a deal longer than a year, but 1/16 or 1/13.5, depending on how you factor in his buyout, is more than reasonable if he finishes the year strong. It just is. 

 

Edited August 6 by wrathofhahn

[southsider2k5]

7 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

He has never been below replacement level until this season. I have much more faith in his bat than, clearly, most of the board does. I am kind of confused as to why people on this board think he can't hit when he has been dealing with soft tissue injuries the entire year. You guys think he forgot how to hit? He is a career. 800 OPS hitter.

This isn't the result of his current hitting either; I said it at the time of the trade. To me, it just was a dumb bet because all it did was save JR money this year. If he finishes with a.850 OPS or better, that option is getting picked up, and he will have good trade value. I feel like some people are still stuck in 2015 prices. Josh Bell got 2/33, coming off a.780 Ops year that is the  market floor.

His injury history may prevent him from getting a deal longer than a year, but 1/16 or 1/13.5, depending on how you factor in his buyout, is more than reasonable if he finishes the year strong. It just is. 

 

1.  He's always hurt, so you can't plan on him being 100% as he has been available for less than 50% of his teams games over the last 6 years.

2. His injury history might actually be taking away from his game. Hitters need their legs to hit, and with repeated injuries, they may never be the same again.

3. If Eloy had value at 1/16 , teams would have given something up to get him, without needing the Sox to send cash for him.  The Sox got a AAA reliever and still had to pay all but $2 million of his remaining cost.  Prorated that works out to 1/$6m for a full season.

[wrathofhahn]

18 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

1.  He's always hurt, so you can't plan on him being 100% as he has been available for less than 50% of his teams games over the last 6 years.

2. His injury history might actually be taking away from his game. Hitters need their legs to hit, and with repeated injuries, they may never be the same again.

3. If Eloy had value at 1/16 , teams would have given something up to get him, without needing the Sox to send cash for him.  The Sox got a AAA reliever and still had to pay all but $2 million of his remaining cost.  Prorated that works out to 1/$6m for a full season.

I acknowledge that he had no value when we moved him, that does not equate to him has no value in the past or in the future. With the Orioles, he still has time to regain value the season is not over.

This brings me back to my earlier statement that a large portion of Chris Getz terrible performance as GM has been due to his ability to manage assets, weigh the pros and cons of making trades, and making deals at the proper time. For example, did I like the Cease trade? No, but that does not mean there was not a better deal available at that time what it means is you have control you manage the asset, and don't panic yourself into taking the best bad offer.

In some cases, you have to trade players because they are going to become free agents; you take what you can get and move on. Eloy did not have to be moved; we just wanted to. Kopech did not have to be moved; we just wanted to. Cease did not have to be moved; we just wanted to. All three trades are biting us in the ass hard. Cease would have been worth multitudes more at the deadline. Kopech stuff should have had us continue to try until we had to pull the plug. Eloy option would have given us the flexibility to walk away if he didn't bounce back. 

Edited August 6 by wrathofhahn

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, wrathofhahn said:

I acknowledge that he had no value when we moved him, that does not equate to him has no value in the past or in the future. With the Orioles, he still has time to regain value the season is not over.

This brings me back to my earlier statement that a large portion of Chris Getz terrible performance as GM has been due to his ability to manage assets, weigh the pros and cons of making trades, and making deals at the proper time. For example, did I like the Cease trade? No, but that does not mean there was not a better deal available at that time what it means is you have control you manage the asset, and don't panic yourself into taking the best bad offer.

In some cases, you have to trade players because they are going to become free agents; you take what you can get and move on. Eloy did not have to be moved; we just wanted to. Kopech did not have to be moved; we just wanted to. Cease did not have to be moved; we just wanted to. All three trades are biting us in the ass hard. Cease would have been worth multitudes more at the deadline. Kopech stuff should have had us continue to try until we had to pull the plug. Eloy option would have given us the flexibility to walk away if he didn't bounce back. 

-Eloy was getting his 1/$16 option declined in three short months.  He is the definition of an expiring asset.  If the Sox really want him back, they can bid on him in free agency, just like the rest of MLB

-Kopech is one year away from free agency, and is entering his final year of control  While you can absolutely make the argument that the deal they put him in was bad, the actual action of moving him was not the wrong move.  He's making $3 million this year as a mediocre and undependable reliever, and that number is going up next year.  He also flat out said earlier he wasn't listening to White Sox coaching.

-I wasn't thrilled with the Cease deal, and would have rather held on to him until this deadline, but again, look at this team.  Keeping these guys together got us 101 losses last year.  By the time his two years are up, do you see the Sox being able to be a playoff team?  I sure as hell don't.  if not, Cease, and anyone else under short to medium term control should be getting moved to maximize assets into this system so that we have a chance when we actually get enough talent together years down the road to have a chance at winning again.  That is not happening in the next 2-3 years for sure.  Throw Luis Robert and Garrett Crochet into this bucket as well.  Get everything you can for them and look at 5-7 years down the road.  This team has zero chance at doing anything good soon.