What does this team look like in an alternate timeline?

[Tony]

Been thinking about this over the weekend. 

We all know when they fired Ricky, AJ Hinch seemed to be the favorite. And it absolutely seemed like that was the target for Rick. We know what followed and who was hired. 

I’m not one to think a manager makes a huge impact, but clearly we see when someone is in way over their head and just not in control of the team/clubhouse. 
 

If Tony is never hired, Jerry stays out of things and it’s AJ Hinch running the show in 2021 and beyond…what do we think this team looks like today? I’m not saying AJ Hinch would have just willed them to 40+ more wins, but it seems like Jerry has weirdly had more influence on things as of late. If Hinch is here, do we see a different playoff result in 2021? Are Hahn and Williams still here? Is there a different group of players on the roster? 

[southsider2k5]

I think earlier lack of failure probably stops the cascading of events that led us to this point.  Could someone like that hold up the dam forever?  Who knows, but something absolutely changed in 2021.  Yes, the won the division, and yes they won 93 games, but the season was in two parts.  They were 58-37, and finished 35-32.  The cracks had started really showing up mid-season and were never repaired, and the entire building fell in.  Were those cracks fixable?  Well, that is the question.  Maybe Hinch has better ideas on player maintenance and buy in from the players.  Ricky sure seemed to have these same guys bought in who are now apparently toxic. 

[Tony]

9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I think earlier lack of failure probably stops the cascading of events that led us to this point.  Could someone like that hold up the dam forever?  Who knows, but something absolutely changed in 2021.  Yes, the won the division, and yes they won 93 games, but the season was in two parts.  They were 58-37, and finished 35-32.  The cracks had started really showing up mid-season and were never repaired, and the entire building fell in.  Were those cracks fixable?  Well, that is the question.  Maybe Hinch has better ideas on player maintenance and buy in from the players.  Ricky sure seemed to have these same guys bought in who are now apparently toxic. 

I think that is the main question, and of course we'll never know the answer, which is also true for any other team. 

Would a different staff be able to keep Eloy-Moncada-Robert on the field more? How big of an impact would Chris Fetter have made on the pitching staff? 

There is no doubt that there were big issues that would still be true today, whoever the coaching staff was...from a player standpoint and lack of depth in the minor leagues. But I wonder if they make the ALCS or something in 2021, how different does 2022 look like, and so on..

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Tony said:

I think that is the main question, and of course we'll never know the answer, which is also true for any other team. 

Would a different staff be able to keep Eloy-Moncada-Robert on the field more? How big of an impact would Chris Fetter have made on the pitching staff? 

There is no doubt that there were big issues that would still be true today, whoever the coaching staff was...from a player standpoint and lack of depth in the minor leagues. But I wonder if they make the ALCS or something in 2021, how different does 2022 look like, and so on..

I guess it comes down to is were the problems something physical and inevitable with the main guys?  If so, yeah, this wasn't going to matter.  I would also throw Kopech into that bucket.  He was just as highly rated as the rest of them, saw just as many injuries, just as much failure, and even flat out said he wasn't listening to coaching right before he left.

Were the problems the players tuning out coaching and leadership because of a loss of faith in them?  I do wonder this because Ricky sure seemed to have them in check and working just fine.  He didn't stop injuries as much as he had players playing at a high level when they were playing, which we don't have now.

To me it feels like more of the second column vs the first.

[JoeC]

17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I think earlier lack of failure probably stops the cascading of events that led us to this point.  Could someone like that hold up the dam forever?  Who knows, but something absolutely changed in 2021.  Yes, the won the division, and yes they won 93 games, but the season was in two parts.  They were 58-37, and finished 35-32.  The cracks had started really showing up mid-season and were never repaired, and the entire building fell in.  Were those cracks fixable?  Well, that is the question.  Maybe Hinch has better ideas on player maintenance and buy in from the players.  Ricky sure seemed to have these same guys bought in who are now apparently toxic. 

That’s the sense I get as well. Seems like the team and core were too young for TLR, and a year of Ricky would have been a better choice. TLR would have been fine IMO with an established veteran roster who could take care of themselves and their own work habits, but the 2021 team still needed to understand what it took to be established, successful, and consistent big leaguers.

[waltwilliams]

34 minutes ago, Tony said:

Been thinking about this over the weekend. 

We all know when they fired Ricky, AJ Hinch seemed to be the favorite. And it absolutely seemed like that was the target for Rick. We know what followed and who was hired. 

I’m not one to think a manager makes a huge impact, but clearly we see when someone is in way over their head and just not in control of the team/clubhouse. 
 

If Tony is never hired, Jerry stays out of things and it’s AJ Hinch running the show in 2021 and beyond…what do we think this team looks like today? I’m not saying AJ Hinch would have just willed them to 40+ more wins, but it seems like Jerry has weirdly had more influence on things as of late. If Hinch is here, do we see a different playoff result in 2021? Are Hahn and Williams still here? Is there a different group of players on the roster? 

The other alternate timeline is: What if they signed Bryce Harper as a free agent in the spring of 2019? He was there for the taking, and his 13 year, 330 million deal actually seems pretty team friendly for the Phillies at this point.

What difference would he have made when the White Sox window was open from 2020-2022? Would the window still be open now? We'll never know, unfortunately.

 

[southsider2k5]

Just now, waltwilliams said:

The other alternate timeline is: What if they signed Bryce Harper as a free agent in the spring of 2019? He was there for the taking, and his 13 year, 330 million deal actually seems pretty team friendly for the Phillies at this point.

What difference would he have made when the White Sox window was open from 2020-2022? Would the window still be open now? We'll never know, unfortunately.

 

I absolutely believe that bringing in Machado or Harper also changes this a LOT.  I think this is a more important breaking point for alternate timelines vs the Tony hiring.

[baseball_gal_aly]

Honestly, part of the issue is that the 2019 season was a mirage due to the bouncy ball and spider tack. 

Eloy's ground ball rate was always a red flag, Giolito was never the same after the spider tack ban, Kopech was a headcase and Moncada got destroyed by injuries and long covid. 

Furthermore, Anderson lost his power in his 30s and it took the league 5 seasons to figure out Robert can't lay off a slider in the LH batter's box. 

For me, Moncada is the biggest what if? because he had elite exit velocities before his bout with covid. He lost bat speed and it never returned. But it is possible that was due to the baseballs they used in 2018-19. 

Edited August 5 by baseball_gal_aly

[Lip Man 1]

Great question, of course if you think about it how would this franchise look if DeBartolo was allowed to buy it instead of Einhorn/Reinsdorf. He wound up buying the Penguins and 49'ers and those teams won a lot of championships. 

[Tnetennba]

I think they would have finished better in 2021 and had a more favorable 1st round matchup. Would they have advanced? Who knows. I also think they would have been better than .500 in 2022, but would they have been good enough to make the post-season? Hahn's rebuild had so many holes and the lack of depth still would have haunted them. 

If anything, I think Hinch would have delayed the inevitable collapse. But I think we would still be facing a similar fate to where we find ourselves now.

Edited August 5 by Tnetennba

[FloydBannister1983]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

I think earlier lack of failure probably stops the cascading of events that led us to this point.  Could someone like that hold up the dam forever?  Who knows, but something absolutely changed in 2021.  Yes, the won the division, and yes they won 93 games, but the season was in two parts.  They were 58-37, and finished 35-32.  The cracks had started really showing up mid-season and were never repaired, and the entire building fell in.  Were those cracks fixable?  Well, that is the question.  Maybe Hinch has better ideas on player maintenance and buy in from the players.  Ricky sure seemed to have these same guys bought in who are now apparently toxic. 

Not much different happens with Hinch.

Go back a few years earlier to an alternate timeline when the White Sox act like a professional organization and are wise enough to sign Bryce Harper when the biggest spenders could not.

Imagine this organization with a player who sells jerseys and basically pays for his own contract with jersey sales.

[Lip Man 1]

57 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

Not much different happens with Hinch.

Go back a few years earlier to an alternate timeline when the White Sox act like a professional organization and are wise enough to sign Bryce Harper when the biggest spenders could not.

Imagine this organization with a player who sells jerseys and basically pays for his own contract with jersey sales.

Phillies I believe sold about a million tickets after his signing was announced. He paid for his salary for the season immediately

[wegner]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

I absolutely believe that bringing in Machado or Harper also changes this a LOT.  I think this is a more important breaking point for alternate timelines vs the Tony hiring.

Harper was the one to pursue....what changes if he was signed?

They definitely targeted a right guy in Wheeler and made a good offer....what is it like if he did sign here, what else changes?

They did play their asses off for the most part for Renteria...what if Ricky was not fired?

[southsider2k5]

Just now, wegner said:

Harper was the one to pursue....what changes if he was signed?

They definitely targeted a right guy in Wheeler and made a good offer....what is it like if he did sign here, what else changes?

They did play their asses off for the most part for Renteria...what if Ricky was not fired?

I feel like continuing on with Ricky is a better choice than Tony and what happened after.  He at least had the team playing hard and interested.

[reiks12]

Does the alternate timeline have Jerry as the owner? Because I can tell you its probably going to be similar. 

[Texsox]

7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I feel like continuing on with Ricky is a better choice than Tony and what happened after.  He at least had the team playing hard and interested.

Of the three possibilities I agree keeping Ricky was better than Tony. If we're going to play what if, at that point the job was attractive to most managers. We could have had someone without baggage. We could toss a couple names out there. 

 

[T R U]

Realistically, nothing changes with AJ Hinch as manager. Our assets all depreciated, who from our core and prospects didn't become worthless? Cease and Robert? We also have an owner who refuses to bring in difference makers to supplement that core. It goes far beyond the terrible decision to let LaRussa lead this team.

In an alternate reality though, the Sox hire Hinch. They land Harper and Wheeler. Our core continues to blossom and the White Sox are the class of the American League and we have another championship or two by now.

[JoeC]

8 minutes ago, T R U said:

Realistically, nothing changes with AJ Hinch as manager. Our assets all depreciated, who from our core and prospects didn't become worthless? Cease and Robert? We also have an owner who refuses to bring in difference makers to supplement that core. It goes far beyond the terrible decision to let LaRussa lead this team.

In an alternate reality though, the Sox hire Hinch. They land Harper and Wheeler. Our core continues to blossom and the White Sox are the class of the American League and we have another championship or two by now.

I think the point is that TLR loosened control on the clubhouse in a way that Ricky didn’t, which led to bad habits and work ethic(s), which led to depreciating assets.

People criticize the Eloys and the Moncadas of the team for not doing what it took, etc., to stay healthy. The consensus from us Ricky-ites is that that would not have happened under Renteria, or at least not nearly to that extent.

[T R U]

Just now, JoeC said:

I think the point is that TLR loosened control on the clubhouse in a way that Ricky didn’t, which led to bad habits and work ethic(s), which led to depreciating assets.

People criticize the Eloys and the Moncadas of the team for not doing what it took, etc., to stay healthy. The consensus from us Ricky-ites is that that would not have happened under Renteria, or at least not nearly to that extent.

Listen I didn't want Tony LaRussa managing this team but there is no way he is responsible for all of these players busting. They all continued to get worse even after he left the dugout.

[JoeC]

10 minutes ago, T R U said:

Listen I didn't want Tony LaRussa managing this team but there is no way he is responsible for all of these players busting. They all continued to get worse even after he left the dugout.

A leader can have a lasting impact on your work habits is my point, especially for younger players. Yes, they all continued to get worse even after he left the dugout, but that’s my point. Once he got there, the preparation and work habits went out the window. The deterioration started there, and there was no reason it wouldn’t have stopped once TLR left.

[bighurt574]

2 hours ago, JoeC said:

A leader can have a lasting impact on your work habits is my point, especially for younger players. Yes, they all continued to get worse even after he left the dugout, but that’s my point. Once he got there, the preparation and work habits went out the window. The deterioration started there, and there was no reason it wouldn’t have stopped once TLR left.

If players have that little discipline on their own, you’re in trouble regardless.  The manager hire wouldn’t have mattered.  Signing Harper is maybe something that could have mattered, especially if it incentivized Reinsdorf to make some other moves too.  

[JoeC]

Just now, bighurt574 said:

If players have that little discipline on their own, you’re in trouble regardless.  The manager hire wouldn’t have mattered.  Signing Harper is maybe something that could have mattered, especially if it incentivized Reinsdorf to make some other moves too.  

Depends. You can have an Ozzie type of manager who bends people to their will, or you can have a culture led by successful veteran players who hold everyone accountable. Younger players can learn discipline, but it seems like once Ricky left, that all went out the window to a more laissez-faire atmosphere.

[JoeC]

…and yes - someone like Harper (who is a notorious “lead by example and working his ass off” leader) would have been an answer for sure. Young players see a formerly-even-more-hyped-dude-who-just-signed-a-9-figure-contract guy who outworks them and gets on their case when they’re not working hard, they’ll be far more likely to fall in line.