Pedro Grifol, Charlie Montoyo, Eddie Rodriguez, & Mike Tosar Fired (Grady Sizemore interim manager)

[kitekrazy]

2 hours ago, fathom said:

Yeah I don’t see it. They’re farther away from being a .500 team than they have in a long time.  There are very few, if any, players that you can clearly state will be a starting player for this team come 2028.

Wait till Getz attempts an offseason trade.

We thought the Burger trade was bad.   

[PaleAleSox]

3 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

Wait till Getz attempts an offseason trade.

We thought the Burger trade was bad.   

Not really.

[almagest]

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

There have been plenty of bad situations in baseball, where the front office was still able to work the margins to put together a normal bad team. That is what even Rick Hahn could do in 2017-2019. 60 wins, normal bad.

On the margins, you can still find acceptably bad bullpens. 1-2 WAR ball players for a few million. 

If you can't do that stuff, you can't do the harder stuff.

What I'm saying is - this organization was in such a deep pit of despair that 60 wins was gonna be really tough, no matter what. Looking back at last season and this offseason I struggle to see what they could have done to end up "normal bad" right now.

Keep Cease? Starting pitching hasn't been their biggest issue for most of the year - it's the bullpen and scoring runs.

Moving Crochet to start was the right call.

Get McCarthy instead of Fletcher? This would definitely help some, but McCarthy would give them, what, 2 or 3 more wins right now? Keeping Mena wouldn't help right now, either.

Moncada and Eloy weren't going anywhere this offseason for anything that would help this team, and we see what they look like with those guys being hurt most of the season. Robert also wasn't going anywhere for value near what he's potentially worth.

Also, the existing MLB team Getz inherited is absolutely HORRENDOUS. Vaughn is their featured hitter in pregame marketing with a 91 OPS+ and -0.2 bWAR lol. You couldn't realistically dump most of these stiffs, either, because there's literally nothing behind them. I do think the push for bad veterans and guys like Sheets instead of giving the few spots of minor league talent (like Sosa and Colas) a chance was terrible. I hope that was more Grifol than Getz - we'll see now that Grifol is gone.

Could they have a better bullpen? Sure, but there's some talent there - at least equivalent to other bad teams. I'm also happy they didn't blow half the payroll on the bullpen again. I'd like to see more moving guys in and out to catch a hot hand, and I think Katz sucks at managing bullpens and should go, but bullpens are volatile.

[almagest]

23 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

I get this.  And even dismissing that a lot of the lacking minor league development can be attributed to him, I have found that it’s extremely hard to believe that he is doing many good things that will lead to the structure and development that we all want so badly.  Currently we are hoping that the crown jewel of the current tear down trade return doesn’t need Tommy John surgery, and the rest of the guys have bounced up and down from the minors or we haven’t seen them yet.  
 

I believe that I afforded this organization a shitload of patience starting in 2016 and they can f*** off if they believe that they need more from me.  I’m out 

I think this organization is in such terrible overall shape with such bullshit restrictions from their ownership that it's gonna take a couple years to climb out of this. It doesn't matter who they hire. I'll be much more willing to judge Getz next year.

[Chisoxmb35]

22 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

Wait till Getz attempts an offseason trade.

We thought the Burger trade was bad.   

I don't think he Burger trade was bad (I was one of the only ones defending the trade at the time). We sold at his peak and he's been awful since. 

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, almagest said:

What I'm saying is - this organization was in such a deep pit of despair that 60 wins was gonna be really tough, no matter what. Looking back at last season and this offseason I struggle to see what they could have done to end up "normal bad" right now.

Keep Cease? Starting pitching hasn't been their biggest issue for most of the year - it's the bullpen and scoring runs.

Moving Crochet to start was the right call.

Get McCarthy instead of Fletcher? This would definitely help some, but McCarthy would give them, what, 2 or 3 more wins right now? Keeping Mena wouldn't help right now, either.

Moncada and Eloy weren't going anywhere this offseason for anything that would help this team, and we see what they look like with those guys being hurt most of the season. Robert also wasn't going anywhere for value near what he's potentially worth.

Also, the existing MLB team Getz inherited is absolutely HORRENDOUS. Vaughn is their featured hitter in pregame marketing with a 91 OPS+ and -0.2 bWAR lol. You couldn't realistically dump most of these stiffs, either, because there's literally nothing behind them. I do think the push for bad veterans and guys like Sheets instead of giving the few spots of minor league talent (like Sosa and Colas) a chance was terrible. I hope that was more Grifol than Getz - we'll see now that Grifol is gone.

Could they have a better bullpen? Sure, but there's some talent there - at least equivalent to other bad teams. I'm also happy they didn't blow half the payroll on the bullpen again. I'd like to see more moving guys in and out to catch a hot hand, and I think Katz sucks at managing bullpens and should go, but bullpens are volatile.

You give 29 other general managers the same situation and none of them would be likely to break the 62 mets record. You are fooling yourself how bad this was. 

They let players go like Declan Cronin ...for free. He'd be one of our best bullpen pitchers. They let Romy Gonzalez go...for free. He would be our 4th best player. And yes that's embarrassing, but they were the ones who made decisions like tendering Nicky Lopez and signing him for 4.3 million.

Do you want to see what they could have gotten for 4.3 million if they were already going to give spots to veterans? https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/transactions

Shoot, Jurickson Profar signed for $1 Million, and is on pace for 7 fWAR.

They had a rule 5 draft, took one player who never played. No room - despite selling off pieces of our 40 man a few months later.

Interesting guys are passing through waivers every day. We are starting Gavin Sheets in RF.

It is pretty hard to make a 43 win roster, and my evidence is 150 years of baseball history.

 

[WhiteSox2023]

34 minutes ago, PaleAleSox said:

Not really.

Wait until the end of the season.  He’s bringing his numbers back up to last year’s.

[WhiteSox2023]

17 minutes ago, Chisoxmb35 said:

I don't think he Burger trade was bad (I was one of the only ones defending the trade at the time). We sold at his peak and he's been awful since. 

He’s on an absolute tear lately and would definitely be our best hitter.  Yes, I know that isn’t saying much.  But let’s how he finishes the season after a terribly slow start to it.

Edited August 8 by WhiteSox2023

[fathom]

17 minutes ago, Chisoxmb35 said:

I don't think he Burger trade was bad (I was one of the only ones defending the trade at the time). We sold at his peak and he's been awful since. 

Burger was very good with the Marlins last year and he’s turned his season around the last few weeks.  

Edited August 8 by fathom

[fathom]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

You give 29 other general managers the same situation and none of them would be likely to break the 62 mets record. You are fooling yourself how bad this was. 

They let players go like Declan Cronin ...for free. He'd be one of our best bullpen pitchers. They let Romy Gonzalez go...for free. He would be our 4th best player. And yes that's embarrassing, but they were the ones who made decisions like tendering Nicky Lopez and signing him for 4.3 million.

Do you want to see what they could have gotten for 4.3 million if they were already going to give spots to veterans? https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/transactions

Shoot, Jurickson Profar signed for $1 Million, and is on pace for 7 fWAR.

They had a rule 5 draft, took one player who never played. No room - despite selling off pieces of our 40 man a few months later.

Interesting guys are passing through waivers every day. We are starting Gavin Sheets in RF.

It is pretty hard to make a 43 win roster, and my evidence is 150 years of baseball history.

 

Hell, look at how awesome Tyson Miller and Jorge Lopez have been in the pen for the Cubs.  Meanwhile, we recycle Leone and Touki.

[bmags]

Just now, fathom said:

Hell, look at how awesome Tyson Miller and Jorge Lopez have been in the pen for the Cubs.  Meanwhile, we recycle Leone and Touki.

Phillies just traded cash for an interesting bullpen guy from Rays. Marlins/Rockies have been claiming tons of players. It's a joke with a pen this bad their eyes have been exclusively on ...Charlotte.

[bmags]

3 minutes ago, fathom said:

Burger was very good with the Marlins last year and he’s turned his season around the last few weeks.  

Also we only need look at the recent trade deadline to see how much more available pitching prospects like Eder were about to be. Trading a promising position player with control for a 24 year old pitcher was horrendous value.

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, bmags said:

You give 29 other general managers the same situation and none of them would be likely to break the 62 mets record. You are fooling yourself how bad this was. 

They let players go like Declan Cronin ...for free. He'd be one of our best bullpen pitchers. They let Romy Gonzalez go...for free. He would be our 4th best player. And yes that's embarrassing, but they were the ones who made decisions like tendering Nicky Lopez and signing him for 4.3 million.

Do you want to see what they could have gotten for 4.3 million if they were already going to give spots to veterans? https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/transactions

Shoot, Jurickson Profar signed for $1 Million, and is on pace for 7 fWAR.

They had a rule 5 draft, took one player who never played. No room - despite selling off pieces of our 40 man a few months later.

Interesting guys are passing through waivers every day. We are starting Gavin Sheets in RF.

It is pretty hard to make a 43 win roster, and my evidence is 150 years of baseball history.

 

Yeah the whole idea was that Chris Getz was going to be some sort of self-evaluation wiz and cut time off of our return to competitiveness, but the results have been pretty lacking.

[WhiteSox2023]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

Also we only need look at the recent trade deadline to see how much more available pitching prospects like Eder were about to be. Trading a promising position player with control for a 24 year old pitcher was horrendous value.

Yeah, we traded a top starting pitcher trade target on a cheap contract for a bust castoff that can’t play defense that the Dodgers didn’t want.

[fathom]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

Also we only need look at the recent trade deadline to see how much more available pitching prospects like Eder were about to be. Trading a promising position player with control for a 24 year old pitcher was horrendous value.

But with Yoan on the team, how was Burger ever gonna find playing time?

[southsider2k5]

29 minutes ago, Chisoxmb35 said:

I don't think he Burger trade was bad (I was one of the only ones defending the trade at the time). We sold at his peak and he's been awful since. 

Jake Burger is a below average hitter who can't play any defense.  You can argue the return for him sucked, but moving him for any value at all was 100% the right move.

[fathom]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Jake Burger is a below average hitter who can't play any defense.  You can argue the return for him sucked, but moving him for any value at all was 100% the right move.

Won’t argue on the defense, but he’s not a below average hitter.  To be fair, might be last day to argue he is

[bmags]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Jake Burger is a below average hitter who can't play any defense.  You can argue the return for him sucked, but moving him for any value at all was 100% the right move.

you gotta nail those moves or else it doesn't matter.

I'm not sure Eder gets you more than Burger right now.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

Who are the candidates to take over the position full time then? I saw Morosi say Gibbons and Fetter. Obviously Schumaker. Anyone else in contention?

[JoeC]

1 minute ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Who are the candidates to take over the position full time then? I saw Morosi say Gibbons and Fetter. Obviously Schumaker. Anyone else in contention?

Jerry will hire Don Cooper.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

3 minutes ago, JoeC said:

Jerry will hire Don Cooper.

I was thinking La Russa 3.0 or Mike Matheny.

[JoeC]

4 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

I was thinking La Russa 3.0 or Mike Matheny.

Yeah I was trying to figure out:

1. Who used to be considered “good?”

2. Who has a long history with the Sox and is on Jerry’s good graces?

3. Who has a proven track record of failing to adjust with the times?

4. Who could Jerry potentially consider as having been “wronged” through termination of employment based on job performance?

To me, the right man for the job is Don Cooper.

Edited August 8 by JoeC

[Kyyle23]

55 minutes ago, almagest said:

I think this organization is in such terrible overall shape with such bullshit restrictions from their ownership that it's gonna take a couple years to climb out of this. It doesn't matter who they hire. I'll be much more willing to judge Getz next year.

Fair. 

[southsider2k5]

16 minutes ago, fathom said:

Won’t argue on the defense, but he’s not a below average hitter.  To be fair, might be last day to argue he is

He's a 96 OPS+ this year.

[southsider2k5]

16 minutes ago, bmags said:

you gotta nail those moves or else it doesn't matter.

I'm not sure Eder gets you more than Burger right now.

The move at least made sense at the time.  He was a buy low opportunity on what had been a high flying lefty starter before we had guys like Schultz and Crochet really doing anything.  Eder hasn't bounced back from injury, but that move at least makes sense.