Pedro Grifol, Charlie Montoyo, Eddie Rodriguez, & Mike Tosar Fired (Grady Sizemore interim manager)

[almagest]

27 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

We're agreeing with one another

 

We literally did and you just said it. Profer also has more than 1 good year. He had a few with an OPS north of .750 iirc. Lopez is complete s%*# and does nothing well. I'm sick of the WAR argument. Moncada had a season where his WAR was really good and anyone with 2 eyes could've told you it was misleading

Dude get OUTTA here. Profar was a bust before this year. NONE of you were beating down the door to sign him, and NO ONE expected him to put up the numbers he’s put up this year. He hasn’t even logged more than 100 innings at second base since 2020, but all of a sudden the Sox are stupid for not signing him instead of Lopez?

WAR is a flawed stat, but it’s still a hell of a lot better than “an OPS above .750 in more than 60 games one other time in his career”. Profar is also a bad defender and guaranteed you’d be complaining about that if he was on the Sox.

There are plenty of reasons to be rightfully pissed off at his team. Stop inventing bad ones.

[almagest]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

Yes, they brought in guys, and they have been below replacement. Because the white sox are worse at this than other teams. A lot of other teams used their resources more wisely than Chris Getz. ANd his team is historically bad. At each step along the way, when the sox had a decision to make on what players to keep, let go, change, they made the wrong choice nearly every time except for Paul Dejong and Eric Fedde.

Playing on the margins is a terrible strategy for any team, because it rarely works out, even for the best front offices. There’s a reason these guys are on the margins in the first place.

Even if the Sox hit on every single margin play they made they’d probably top out at 60 wins because of how utterly terrible the legacy roster has been. I think you (and others) are underestimating how poorly the Hahn players have performed, if they’re even able to play.

This year is a complete wash, as far as I’m concerned. This offseason and next season is when we can really start to evaluate Getz.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

7 minutes ago, almagest said:

Playing on the margins is a terrible strategy for any team, because it rarely works out, even for the best front offices. There’s a reason these guys are on the margins in the first place.

Even if the Sox hit on every single margin play they made they’d probably top out at 60 wins because of how utterly terrible the legacy roster has been. I think you (and others) are underestimating how poorly the Hahn players have performed, if they’re even able to play.

This year is a complete wash, as far as I’m concerned. This offseason and next season is when we can really start to evaluate Getz.

... the guy said he didn't like the team he acquired, made a ton of changes and then fielded the worst team in mlb history. How is that a wash?

[almagest]

6 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

... the guy said he didn't like the team he acquired, made a ton of changes and then fielded the worst team in mlb history. How is that a wash?

…I’ve already said how, multiple times. You don’t meaningfully change an absolute dumpster inferno like this organization in one year. They basically need to turn THE ENTIRE ORGANIZATION over. Getz is likely not the right choice to do this correctly, but it’s not because they’re on track to win 40-something games this year.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, almagest said:

…I’ve already said how, multiple times. You don’t meaningfully change an absolute dumpster inferno like this organization in one year. They basically need to turn THE ENTIRE ORGANIZATION over. Getz is likely not the right choice to do this correctly, but it’s not because they’re on track to win 40-something games this year.

The White Sox were horrible last year. This year, they're on pace to win TWENTY THREE fewer games than that horrible team. 23 games last year is the difference between the White Sox and the world series appearing diamondbacks (84 wins).

Getz took the inferno and turned it into a nuclear explosion. That's not even to speak for the fact that there biggest problem is zero talent developed internally which was his main job prior.

[Y2Jimmy0]

8 hours ago, joejoesox said:

crazy that Thames and Katz survived this

No it’s not. They dumped all the Pedro guys. I think Katz will be safe with Bannister in tow going forward. 

8 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

What Getz is saying doesn't match up with keeping Pedro on so long.

Well that’s a Jerry decision. I think Getz would’ve launched Grifol awhile ago. 

7 hours ago, fathom said:

Thorpe is a back-end, seemingly easily replaceable starting pitcher. Again, crazy they let such a low ceiling guy headline that deal.

Do you disagree with all the prospect publications who had him as a top 50 prospect in baseball? 

[almagest]

46 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The White Sox were horrible last year. This year, they're on pace to win TWENTY THREE fewer games than that horrible team. 23 games last year is the difference between the White Sox and the world series appearing diamondbacks (84 wins).

Getz took the inferno and turned it into a nuclear explosion. That's not even to speak for the fact that there biggest problem is zero talent developed internally which was his main job prior.

What’s funny about that is the MLB roster isn’t even all that different than last year. The only real departures of note are Cease and a couple bullpen pitchers. Moncada, Eloy, Robert, Benintendi, Sheets, Vaughn, Lee, Sosa, Kopech, Touki, Banks were all here. DeJong was much better than TA. Maldonado was worse than Grandal but honestly they were both awful, so if you’re saying the Sox are 20-something games worse because of Grandal I ain’t buying it. Zavala was Maldonado-esque. Nicky Lopez is doing about what we got out of Andrus last year. Pham and Sheets have been better than what we got out of Sheets last year.

The starters have been BETTER this year. No 6.47 era Lance Lynn to deal with. 2023 Kopech and Flexen are roughly the same. Crochet and Fedde are better than any pitcher from last year.

The bullpen is the biggest difference, because most of the turnover happened there, and a lot of it was bad. 

The bullpen isn’t the main reason why they’ve lost 20-something more games, though. Basically every returning position player has either been hurt most of the year or has been much worse than last year. Benintendi, Robert, Eloy (when he played), Vaughn - all worse. They barely average 3 runs per game, and all the new guys have either been better or are a wash.

Like I said - this all started long before Getz took over. We’re just seeing it bottom out now.

Edited August 9 by almagest

[WhiteSox2023]

46 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Do you disagree with all the prospect publications who had him as a top 50 prospect in baseball? 

Do you disagree with all the prospect publications who had Miguel Vargas as a top 50 prospect in baseball?

Haha, it doesn’t always pan out like they predict unfortunately.

Edited August 9 by WhiteSox2023

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

53 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

No it’s not. They dumped all the Pedro guys. I think Katz will be safe with Bannister in tow going forward. 

Well that’s a Jerry decision. I think Getz would’ve launched Grifol awhile ago. 

Do you disagree with all the prospect publications who had him as a top 50 prospect in baseball? 

The prospect ranking world is ripe with group think and are not an authority on evaluation imo.

[Quin]

32 minutes ago, almagest said:

What’s funny about that is the MLB roster isn’t even all that different than last year. The only real departures of note are Cease and a couple bullpen pitchers. Moncada, Eloy, Robert, Benintendi, Sheets, Vaughn, Lee, Sosa, Kopech, Touki, Banks were all here. DeJong was much better than TA. Maldonado was worse than Grandal but honestly they were both awful, so if you’re saying the Sox are 20-something games worse because of Grandal I ain’t buying it. Zavala was Maldonado-esque. Nicky Lopez is doing about what we got out of Andrus last year. Pham and Sheets have been better than what we got out of Sheets last year.

The starters have been BETTER this year. No 6.47 era Lance Lynn to deal with. 2023 Kopech and Flexen are roughly the same. Crochet and Fedde are better than any pitcher from last year.

The bullpen is the biggest difference, because most of the turnover happened there, and a lot of it was bad. 

The bullpen isn’t the main reason why they’ve lost 20-something more games, though. Basically every returning position player has either been hurt most of the year or has been much worse than last year. Benintendi, Robert, Eloy (when he played), Vaughn - all worse. They barely average 3 runs per game, and all the new guys have either been better or are a wash.

Like I said - this all started long before Getz took over. We’re just seeing it bottom out now.

28 blown saves and the worst bullpen in the league definitely contributes to losing.

Also Getz brought in the starting catcher, SS, 2B, RF (Fletcher counts, even if he quickly entered a lazy susan).

Getz has had so many bites at the apple of getting good players on the roster — @fathomknows the actual number — that at some boy he can put on his big boy pants and actually be held responsible for the players he put on the roster.

[almagest]

7 minutes ago, Quin said:

28 blown saves and the worst bullpen in the league definitely contributes to losing.

Also Getz brought in the starting catcher, SS, 2B, RF (Fletcher counts, even if he quickly entered a lazy susan).

Getz has had so many bites at the apple of getting good players on the roster — @fathomknows the actual number — that at some boy he can put on his big boy pants and actually be held responsible for the players he put on the roster.

It contributes, but when you only score three runs per game you have no room for error.

Fletcher looks like a mistake, but even Judge out there doesn’t get this team to 60 wins. And as I said, they’ve actually gotten better production in RF this year. Same with SS. Catcher and 2B are mostly a wash.

Also, I agree - Getz needs to be held responsible for the roster. Next year.

Edited August 9 by almagest

[PaleAleSox]

20 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Do you disagree with all the prospect publications who had Miguel Vargas as a top 50 prospect in baseball?

Haha, it doesn’t always pan out like they predict unfortunately.

I don’t understand why you’ve completely written him off already. 

[Y2Jimmy0]

22 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Do you disagree with all the prospect publications who had Miguel Vargas as a top 50 prospect in baseball?

Haha, it doesn’t always pan out like they predict unfortunately.

Nope. It’s too early to make a determination on either guy. I’ll trust Brian Bannister on Drew Thorpe rather than giving up after 41 big league innings or whatever it’s been. 

[WhiteSox2023]

6 minutes ago, PaleAleSox said:

I don’t understand why you’ve completely written him off already. 

The Dodgers are a much smarter organization than the Sox and they were fine dumping him.  Also, he has looked terrible for almost a full season of at plate appearances in his career and that has continued on to the Sox.

You wouldn’t have rather acquired the Twins prospect, Luke Keaschall?  I know I would have.  What a shame…

Edited August 9 by WhiteSox2023

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

9 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Nope. It’s too early to make a determination on either guy. I’ll trust Brian Bannister on Drew Thorpe rather than giving up after 41 big league innings or whatever it’s been. 

When aren't you deferring your opinions to someone else?

Drew Thorpes ceiling is a #4. 

[soxfan49]

2 hours ago, almagest said:

Dude get OUTTA here. Profar was a bust before this year. NONE of you were beating down the door to sign him, and NO ONE expected him to put up the numbers he’s put up this year. He hasn’t even logged more than 100 innings at second base since 2020, but all of a sudden the Sox are stupid for not signing him instead of Lopez?

WAR is a flawed stat, but it’s still a hell of a lot better than “an OPS above .750 in more than 60 games one other time in his career”. Profar is also a bad defender and guaranteed you’d be complaining about that if he was on the Sox.

There are plenty of reasons to be rightfully pissed off at his team. Stop inventing bad ones.

You're inventing excuses. Yes Profar is a bust. Of course it's hindsight. You know what isn't hindsight? Knowing Nicky Lopez sucks. Profar has more talent in his ballsack than Lopez has in his entire body. Yeah Profar stinks defensively but remember Getz brought in a bunch of guys to improve the defense so they could sacrifice it elsewhere! Oh wait they blow defensively too

I'm not pounding the table for Profar necessarily. What I am saying is bringing in Nicky Lopez was never going to be a positive

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, pcq said:

Quite a resume Pedro. Back to KC for you!

The Royals are now pretty good they don't want him back or need him. 

[almagest]

2 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

You're inventing excuses. Yes Profar is a bust. Of course it's hindsight. You know what isn't hindsight? Knowing Nicky Lopez sucks. Profar has more talent in his ballsack than Lopez has in his entire body. Yeah Profar stinks defensively but remember Getz brought in a bunch of guys to improve the defense so they could sacrifice it elsewhere! Oh wait they blow defensively too

I'm not pounding the table for Profar necessarily. What I am saying is bringing in Nicky Lopez was never going to be a positive

I’m not inventing excuses. You’re inventing reasons to be mad which distract from the actual problems.

Dude Profar sucked before this year, go look at his numbers. Big bust. This year is lightning in a bottle for a 31 year old nearing the end of his career.

Where did I say Lopez was a positive? He’s a worse hitting, better defending Andrus. Basically a wash from last year. There was basically no one else they could realistically sign at 2B that’d be any better. Go look at what was out there. Maybe a trade for Ortiz would have been better and thats about it. And he would get them, what? 1 or 2 more wins? The players left over from the Hahn era have been ATROCIOUS. 

[hankchifan]

2 hours ago, almagest said:

Playing on the margins is a terrible strategy for any team, because it rarely works out, even for the best front offices. There’s a reason these guys are on the margins in the first place.

Even if the Sox hit on every single margin play they made they’d probably top out at 60 wins because of how utterly terrible the legacy roster has been. I think you (and others) are underestimating how poorly the Hahn players have performed, if they’re even able to play.

This year is a complete wash, as far as I’m concerned. This offseason and next season is when we can really start to evaluate Getz.

The Sox are the kingdom of mediocre journeymen, which is a formula for the cellar.

[hankchifan]

2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The White Sox were horrible last year. This year, they're on pace to win TWENTY THREE fewer games than that horrible team. 23 games last year is the difference between the White Sox and the world series appearing diamondbacks (84 wins).

Getz took the inferno and turned it into a nuclear explosion. That's not even to speak for the fact that there biggest problem is zero talent developed internally which was his main job prior.

Getz also got poor returns on his trades of stars like Cease and Fedde, not to mention how ReyLo and Bummer are performing this year.

[hankchifan]

5 hours ago, almagest said:

Profar is total hindsight, come on. No one expected he'd be this good. That's why he signed for a million, plus he signed where he was already playing.

The Sox also brought in plenty of guys to try in RF. It's not like they stuck Sheets out there for every game this year. Also, if you look at Sportrac for the 2023-2024 offseason, you won't see anyone that was possible to sign that would've made anything but a marginal difference at best in RF: https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/transactions/_/start/2023-11-01/end/2024-04-01/position/rf. Going up by 0.2 WAR isn't gonna make this team win 20 more games. Also, who on the recent transaction list is more interesting right now than giving Colas or Fletcher an extended shot? I'm not seeing anyone.

Romy Gonzales has played in 49 games. It might have been a mistake to let him go (personally, I think he's not very good and has small sample size success), but he wouldn't change their record.

Cronin should've been kept, I agree. The bullpen is ATROCIOUS, though. He would only help a little. Doesn't matter much if you get an inning or two more of solid relief every couple days when the rest of the 'pen can't get anyone out.

You're right that it's near impossible to only win 40 games. That's how poorly the Sox have been run for the past 8+ years - the product on the field now is the result of the decisions made since the sell-off in 2016. Not just from this offseason.

I think the main Sox HO strategy has been to dump salary.

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, almagest said:

…I’ve already said how, multiple times. You don’t meaningfully change an absolute dumpster inferno like this organization in one year. They basically need to turn THE ENTIRE ORGANIZATION over. Getz is likely not the right choice to do this correctly, but it’s not because they’re on track to win 40-something games this year.

You can judge Getz on the fact that pretty much every single position player regressed and/or failed.  It is really, really hard to inherit a 100 loss team and make it 20 games worse.

[Y2Jimmy0]

46 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

When aren't you deferring your opinions to someone else?

Drew Thorpes ceiling is a #4. 

I’m not deferring my opinion to anyone. He might be a #4 starter. I don’t think you understand what ceiling means though. 

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

No it’s not. They dumped all the Pedro guys. I think Katz will be safe with Bannister in tow going forward. 

Well that’s a Jerry decision. I think Getz would’ve launched Grifol awhile ago. 

Do you disagree with all the prospect publications who had him as a top 50 prospect in baseball? 

About 30 slots ahead of Oscar Colas peak.  Where is he at?

[hankchifan]

6 hours ago, Chisoxmb35 said:

I don't think he Burger trade was bad (I was one of the only ones defending the trade at the time). We sold at his peak and he's been awful since. 

I think Burger has hit 19 homers so far in Miami which is a pitchers park.  At GRF he would be probably closer to 30 dingers.  You need to factor your park into your personnel decisions.  Sox are not a small ball team.