Pedro Grifol, Charlie Montoyo, Eddie Rodriguez, & Mike Tosar Fired (Grady Sizemore interim manager)

[almagest]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You can judge Getz on the fact that pretty much every single position player regressed and/or failed.  It is really, really hard to inherit a 100 loss team and make it 20 games worse.

Ok, sure. How should he have prevented this? Let’s take firing Grifol sooner out of it, because from what we’re hearing he wanted to do that for a while. What else would you have done to prevent injuries, and make guys like Benintendi and Vaughn hit?

[Y2Jimmy0]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

About 30 slots ahead of Oscar Colas peak.  Where is he at?

Very overrated. He wasn’t ranked everywhere either. 

[hankchifan]

13 hours ago, Sleepy Harold said:

FINALLYy

You can put it on the board …YES!   It is hard to believe that it took so long to do this, and shake the tree of these rotten fruits.  I can only imagine that JR was trying To save some money, by not having to pay 2 managers for a longer period.  The team needed a massive change and to stop the embarrassing bleeding. IMO.

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Very overrated. He wasn’t ranked everywhere either. 

So what you are saying is that people saw him and adjusted.   Interesting. 

[Y2Jimmy0]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So what you are saying is that people saw him and adjusted.   Interesting. 

Fair point. I just think writing off Drew Thorpe is stupid. I need to take a break from this hellscape I think. 

[Chicago White Sox]

5 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

You acknowledged that he likely has TJ surgery in his future.  His fastball is already very low velocity.  Thorpe losing a couple ticks off of his already low velocity fastball after TJ surgery is the equivalent of an asteroid hitting the earth?

Most guys gain a couple ticks after TJ surgery

[southsider2k5]

21 minutes ago, almagest said:

Ok, sure. How should he have prevented this? Let’s take firing Grifol sooner out of it, because from what we’re hearing he wanted to do that for a while. What else would you have done to prevent injuries, and make guys like Benintendi and Vaughn hit?

The idea that the GM isn't responsible for how the roster preforms is new on me.

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Fair point. I just think writing off Drew Thorpe is stupid. I need to take a break from this hellscape I think. 

I am definitely not writing off Thorpe.  Personally I didn't want him here yet, and we saw that he's still not quite where he needs to be with his control, but you also saw an insane change, plenty of pitches, and flashes of greatness at times too.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, almagest said:

It contributes, but when you only score three runs per game you have no room for error.

Fletcher looks like a mistake, but even Judge out there doesn’t get this team to 60 wins. And as I said, they’ve actually gotten better production in RF this year. Same with SS. Catcher and 2B are mostly a wash.

Also, I agree - Getz needs to be held responsible for the roster. Next year.

Better production out of RF?  They’re like -1.5 fWAR through ~3/4 of the season vs. -2.2 last year.  That’s more or less the same negative value production and an absolute embarrassment when we traded actual assets for Fletcher and DeLoach.

[almagest]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The idea that the GM isn't responsible for how the roster preforms is new on me.

I’ve described my rationale for why I think we need to wait a year to really judge Getz in multiple posts. Do you have steps that Getz should have taken to prevent injuries to Moncada and Eloy, or make Benintendi and Vaughn be worse than last season? If so, what should he have done that would have been effective in one offseason?

Heck, I’ll even give you one - find a hitting guru like he brought Bannister in to be the pitching guru. Not sure if they had enough time to find that guy, which is why he might be looking for him this year (as discussed in another thread), but it’s definitely something I could buy as a misstep.

[Chicago White Sox]

16 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Fair point. I just think writing off Drew Thorpe is stupid. I need to take a break from this hellscape I think. 

I don’t get the Thorpe hate at all.  It’s one thing to have wanted a higher ceiling and/or positional headliner for Cease, but Thorpe was pitching very well before his injury as a rookie and  was generating incredibly weak contact.  Two bad starts, while likely injured, doesn’t really change the fact he looks like a sure fire major league starter.  Whether that’s a #3 or a #4 remains to be seen, but I’m very optimistic he sticks and is a regular 2+ win player.

[WhiteSox2023]

14 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The idea that the GM isn't responsible for how the roster preforms is new on me.

Remind me what Getz’s job was prior to his undeserved promotion to GM…

[fathom]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

When aren't you deferring your opinions to someone else?

Drew Thorpes ceiling is a #4. 

I agree with the 4 ceiling, and if he was the second piece in the trade, it would have been fine.  He desperately needs to find a way to make his fastball more effective at this level.
 

[almagest]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Better production out of RF?  They’re like -1.5 fWAR through ~3/4 of the season vs. -2.2 last year.  That’s more or less the same negative value production and an absolute embarrassment when we traded actual assets for Fletcher and DeLoach.

That’s not why they’re way worse than last year, though, is it? Santos isn’t much of an asset, given he was injured at the time of the trade and is still injured. I’ll wait until Mena gets his era below 4 in AAA (or even AA) to call him an actual asset.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, almagest said:

I’ve described my rationale for why I think we need to wait a year to really judge Getz in multiple posts. Do you have steps that Getz should have taken to prevent injuries to Moncada and Eloy, or make Benintendi and Vaughn be worse than last season? If so, what should he have done that would have been effective in one offseason?

Heck, I’ll even give you one - find a hitting guru like he brought Bannister in to be the pitching guru. Not sure if they had enough time to find that guy, which is why he might be looking for him this year (as discussed in another thread), but it’s definitely something I could buy as a misstep.

Their position player group is by far the worst in baseball.  Dude even went out and preached about bringing in all of these defenders to improve things and still managed to put out literally the worst defense in baseball.  He acquired low floor players who he then was scared to play.  He has churned somewhere around 70 players through this roster trying to find anyone who can play.

There is plenty to judge Getz on.

[almagest]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Their position player group is by far the worst in baseball.  Dude even went out and preached about bringing in all of these defenders to improve things and still managed to put out literally the worst defense in baseball.  He acquired low floor players who he then was scared to play.  He has churned somewhere around 70 players through this roster trying to find anyone who can play.

There is plenty to judge Getz on.

Bad teams churn through players like crazy. I don’t understand why this is such a sticking point for people. If the team was good they wouldn’t try to find good players.
I already went over the position players sucking - every player who was here last year has been worse. Hard to not be worse when your “good” players suck. The defense also still sucks largely because of those players. 

Now do you have an answer for my questions or are you going to keep deflecting?

[fathom]

12 minutes ago, almagest said:

That’s not why they’re way worse than last year, though, is it? Santos isn’t much of an asset, given he was injured at the time of the trade and is still injured. I’ll wait until Mena gets his era below 4 in AAA (or even AA) to call him an actual asset.

It just set the rebuild back even more that they got so little in return for Burger, Bummer, Santos and Mena.  Doesn’t even matter much to me how they do with their new teams (except I want Burger to do well), but those were valuable assets they cashed in and came up empty.  Just awful scouting once again by the Sox.

[Chicago White Sox]

11 minutes ago, almagest said:

That’s not why they’re way worse than last year, though, is it? Santos isn’t much of an asset, given he was injured at the time of the trade and is still injured. I’ll wait until Mena gets his era below 4 in AAA (or even AA) to call him an actual asset.

Mena was a top 10 org prospect when we traded him.  Santos is a controllable reliever who didn’t need to be moved right away.  We basically have a 3rd round pick to show for them.  They were both bad trades and raise serious questions about our ability to scout, which is concerning when you brought in a questionable dude to lead your scouting department.

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, almagest said:

Bad teams churn through players like crazy. I don’t understand why this is such a sticking point for people. If the team was good they wouldn’t try to find good players.
I already went over the position players sucking - every player who was here last year has been worse. Hard to not be worse when your “good” players suck. The defense also still sucks largely because of those players. 

Now do you have an answer for my questions or are you going to keep deflecting?

Get better players would be a great fucking place to start.  Who on gods green earth thought Nicky Lopez or Martin Maldonado were answers to this teams problem?  Oh right Chris Getz.  Aren't GMs responsible for positional coaches?  How about that?  Maybe someone that can teach fundementals to major league players?  It's absurd that I have to list off the literal job of a GM as what a GM could be doing to make his team better, like this is some big secret.

[almagest]

2 minutes ago, fathom said:

It just set the rebuild back even more that they got so little in return for Burger, Bummer, Santos and Mena.  Doesn’t even matter much to me how they do with their new teams (except I want Burger to do well), but those were valuable assets they cashed in and came up empty.  Just awful scouting once again by the Sox.

Burger wasn’t Getz. The move also made sense at the time. Bummer had good advanced stats but had control issues and an awful ERA. I doubt anyone was lining up to give the Sox much of anything there. I can see the rationale to grab a bunch of players on the edge of the Braves 40 man and see what you can get. Some of them had a pedigree, and Lopez was a body at second base who played good defense and had a 4 WAR season.

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Mena was a top 10 org prospect when we traded him.  Santos is a controllable reliever who didn’t need to be moved right away.  We basically have a 3rd round pick to show for them.  They were both bad trades and raise serious questions about our ability to scout, which is concerning when you brought in a questionable dude to lead your scouting department.

They clearly don’t think of Mena as highly as some people do here, and his results don’t show much of anything yet. I doubt he was as highly valued around the league. The Sox clearly made the wrong player choice, especially given Barfield’s knowledge of their system, but they’d probably only have a couple more wins at most.

I agree Santos didn’t need to be traded, but maybe they knew more about his injury than we did. Plus there were the rumors that he was the one sleeping. Maybe they just wanted him off the team, and so far he hasn’t done anything since leaving.

[almagest]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Get better players would be a great fucking place to start.  Who on gods green earth thought Nicky Lopez or Martin Maldonado were answers to this teams problem?  Oh right Chris Getz.  Aren't GMs responsible for positional coaches?  How about that?  Maybe someone that can teach fundementals to major league players?  It's absurd that I have to list off the literal job of a GM as what a GM could be doing to make his team better, like this is some big secret.

Like who? What free agents were out there that the Sox would realistically sign that would be a big enough improvement to make up 20 games? I already covered RF and 2B - not much there. Not seeing much at catcher, either. Maybe they could’ve used some of their assets in trades, but who was going to give up a decent major league player for Bummer? Or injured Santos? 
The ML coaching staff was largely retained from last year, and we’ve been hearing Getz wanted to can them for a while. This team has had issues fielding and playing good fundamental baseball since long before Getz took over. I’ll give him more than one offseason (especially now that Grifol and most of his staff were canned) to fix this problem,

[southsider2k5]

9 minutes ago, almagest said:

Like who? What free agents were out there that the Sox would realistically sign that would be a big enough improvement to make up 20 games? I already covered RF and 2B - not much there. Not seeing much at catcher, either. Maybe they could’ve used some of their assets in trades, but who was going to give up a decent major league player for Bummer? Or injured Santos? 
The ML coaching staff was largely retained from last year, and we’ve been hearing Getz wanted to can them for a while. This team has had issues fielding and playing good fundamental baseball since long before Getz took over. I’ll give him more than one offseason (especially now that Grifol and most of his staff were canned) to fix this problem,

Let's start with a simple no.

Chris Getz signed the worst defensive catcher in baseball to improve the catching position. Literally anyone was better.  How about Seby Zavala who he waived for starters?

In RF, can we start with a guy who can actually play RF unlike Gavin Sheets?  Hell if we don't care how he is going to hit anyway, why not a guy who can catch and throw in Oscar Colas?

A better 2b?  Oh how about Romy Gonzalez that he let walk for nothing.

Out of the pen?  Declan Cronin, who walked for nothing?  Jesse Chavez who was released?  Brent Honeywell, let walk for nothing?  Jose Urena another one?  Tim Hill been great in NYY?

 

[ron883]

1 hour ago, fathom said:

I agree with the 4 ceiling, and if he was the second piece in the trade, it would have been fine.  He desperately needs to find a way to make his fastball more effective at this level.
 

Force him to get TJS and hope he gains a couple ticks

[almagest]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Let's start with a simple no.

Chris Getz signed the worst defensive catcher in baseball to improve the catching position. Literally anyone was better.  How about Seby Zavala who he waived for starters?

In RF, can we start with a guy who can actually play RF unlike Gavin Sheets?  Hell if we don't care how he is going to hit anyway, why not a guy who can catch and throw in Oscar Colas?

A better 2b?  Oh how about Romy Gonzalez that he let walk for nothing.

Out of the pen?  Declan Cronin, who walked for nothing?  Jesse Chavez who was released?  Brent Honeywell, let walk for nothing?  Jose Urena another one?  Tim Hill been great in NYY?

 

Zavala is at -0.4 war this year, same as he was for the Sox last year. He’s only gotten 39 at bats though, so I really can’t see how you’d be counting on him for much of an improvement, especially since Lee would be getting most of the playing time.

I agree on Colas, but let’s be honest - he hasn’t shown us anything to make us believe he’d be better. Still worth trying, I’ll give you that, and I hope he’s out there now that Grifol is gone.

Romy Gonzalez only has 100 at bats this year. It’s likely he’d be exposed in a full time role. If you combine his entire career (~120 games), he’s basically Nicky Lopez this year. Not an improvement.

If you add all those relievers you get 2.7 WAR. Definitely an improvement over the garbage they have now, but not enough to make up 20 games, especially when your offense averages 3 runs per game. Bullpens struggle when they have no margin for error. I’m also not sure any of these guys would be good here - I think Katz is terrible with bullpens.

[PitchatRisktoZisk]

I never revel in someone losing their job, but I'm thrilled this happened today. The man was not remotely qualified to be an MLB manager. The Royals passing on him for their job twice told us all we needed to know. 

 

On top of that, he really was an unlikeable guy. Major ass kisser to management. Throws his players under the bus. And just a generally surly dude that you couldn't remotely root for. 

 

All that said, my expectations for the new manager are in the crapper. Getz using the same "extensive search" BS we heard from Hahn the last two times. Get ready for LaRussa's buddy Skip Shoemaker to be the choice.