Pedro Grifol, Charlie Montoyo, Eddie Rodriguez, & Mike Tosar Fired (Grady Sizemore interim manager)

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Paragraph after paragraph of this is all someone else's fault, and even if it wasn't, it isn't really his fault anyway because it was still someone else's fault is easy to view as an apologist.

 Let me put it this way.  I fully believe if Rick and Kenny had stayed in charge, or if we had found a real GM to run this operation from day one, this would not be a 40 win team today.

[Chicago White Sox]

27 minutes ago, almagest said:

No, you are missing the point. There's no way letting some bullpen pitchers and Seby Zavala go caused the problems we're seeing this year.  You don't get to this level of historic incompetency in one offseason. This started with the sell-off in 2016 and is a complete organizational failure, largely due to Kenny Williams, Rick Hahn and Jerry Reinsdorf.

Believe me, I'm not a fan of Getz, but pinning it all on him because he made some bad bullpen moves or traded for guys who didn't play much in the most lost season in the history of the MLB is reactionary and short sighted. These moves literally do not matter right now. Most of the changes he's making are not going to show returns for a year at best. This might be the biggest org tear down we've ever seen. That's how BAD they are, from top to bottom. It's disgusting, and it's even more disgusting that Reinsdorf tried to sell this as a quick turnaround.

No doubt KW & Hahn are a major part of this mess, but not sure why Getz gets a free pass for this season being historically bad.  Our positional group has put up like -5 fWAR.  Not his fault that Benintendi sucks, but the rest is squarely on him like signing Maldonado, playing Sheets in the OF, giving away a platoon UT guy in Romy to then trade for platoon OF in Julks, not having a replacement caliber option at 1B/DH at AAA, flopping on the Fletcher & DeLoach trades, etc.  The bullpen also sucks and he did not a single RP he was able to flip in a market that was desperate for relievers (and let a good, controllable one go in Cronin).

And a huge reason the organization is in trouble in because there has been no pipeline of talent to fill in holes and offset normal regression.  And that’s 100% on him for sucking at his past job and still not being able to develop hitters in the minors (which he acknowledged yesterday).  Now, he does deserve credit for bringing in Bannister and making meaningful change on the pitching side, but beyond that most of what he has done (so far) has looked suspect.  That doesn’t mean things can’t get better, but I think people being unhappy and skeptical is a very reason take at this point.

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Isn’t it surprising that posters on a Sox message board aren’t happy with the Sox ownership and front office when the team is on the verge of setting the record for being historically bad?

But does that mean people who don't agree with everything that is being said need to be told that they should read the room when they respond? Why can't some disagree with some aspects without being told their responses are wrong?

Not the items they are discussing are wrong that is debate. It's the fact that people are telling others they should think like everyone else.

[WhiteSox2023]

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

But does that mean people who don't agree with everything that is being said need to be told that they should read the room when they respond? Why can't some disagree with some aspects without being told their responses are wrong?

Not the items they are discussing are wrong that is debate. It's the fact that people are telling others they should think like everyone else.

No, of course not.  But you are the one who has posted this snarky comment in two separate threads now so I’m not sure what you are complaining about here…

[almagest]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Paragraph after paragraph of this is all someone else's fault, and even if it wasn't, it isn't really his fault anyway because it was still someone else's fault is easy to view as an apologist.

If people read what I actually said, and not what they thought I said or wanted me to say, then it would be easy to see I'm not a Getz apologist. I'm just trying to be realistic about what's possible in one season with an organization this bad and not whip myself into a pointless frenzy of negativity.

[Chicago White Sox]

7 minutes ago, ptatc said:

But does that mean people who don't agree with everything that is being said need to be told that they should read the room when they respond? Why can't some disagree with some aspects without being told their responses are wrong?

Not the items they are discussing are wrong that is debate. It's the fact that people are telling others they should think like everyone else.

What aspects do you disagree with?

[Kyyle23]

9 minutes ago, ptatc said:

But does that mean people who don't agree with everything that is being said need to be told that they should read the room when they respond? Why can't some disagree with some aspects without being told their responses are wrong?

Not the items they are discussing are wrong that is debate. It's the fact that people are telling others they should think like everyone else.

Who is telling you what to say and how to react?

[46DidIt]

58 minutes ago, almagest said:

“I'm giving Getz another year because Jesus Christ himself couldn't make this team win 60 games" 

Edited August 9 by 46DidIt

[Kyyle23]

Jesus Christ wouldn’t have hired pedro

[southsider2k5]

14 minutes ago, almagest said:

If people read what I actually said, and not what they thought I said or wanted me to say, then it would be easy to see I'm not a Getz apologist. I'm just trying to be realistic about what's possible in one season with an organization this bad and not whip myself into a pointless frenzy of negativity.

I don't think expecting this group to be a 40 win team was at all realistic.  Literally no one expected it or predicted it. Acting like this was a forgone conclusion is revisionist history 

[almagest]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I don't think expecting this group to be a 40 win team was at all realistic.  Literally no one expected it or predicted it. Acting like this was a forgone conclusion is revisionist history 

You're right. No one expected all of Benintendi, Vaughn, Eloy, Moncada and Robert to be practically useless this year. And it's not revisionist history to realize how absolutely screwed this team is after what we've seen this year and the tons of insider feedback we've gotten about what an utter disaster this organization was under Rick and Kenny - so bad that even Reinsdorf had to fire KW, who he considered a son and who brought him a WS in 2005. A guy who Jerry blocked from interviewing for other roles. A guy who likely had a job for life, and yet still managed to screw it up somehow.

Edited August 9 by almagest

[Nardiwashere]

Reminder:  A couple months ago we had like a 10 page thread where people said trading some guy named Luis Rodriguez (that no one had ever heard of) for Corey Julks was a fireable offense for Getz.  More recently, there are people jizzing over Luke Keaschall just because we didn't trade for him. 

In this thread, we have the same people that relentlessly mocked WestEddy for crediting the Sox with developing Seby Zavala's defense switch to praising Zavala's defensive value. 

Some are accusing Getz of forcing Rick Hahn and Kenny Williams (!) to hire Pedro Grifol while at the same time claiming Jerry picks all the managers. 

There are a million things to criticize the Sox about.  Minor moves made by Chris Getz in his first 10 months as a GM in a season where he inherited a s%*# team and needed to cut payroll is pretty far down the list. 

[Lip Man 1]

Heard from a long time friend and source late last night who has been around the Sox for years. He just passed along some thoughts on the changes and the individuals involved. Some of them seem to show some promise...let's hope so:

"Grifol - held mandatory BP before every game starting with the last three games of the first half until his firing."

"Montoyo - nice guy still gun shy from his firing in Toronto, never spoke to White Sox media."

"Tosar - Grifol friend from Miami days, another KC refugee"

"Rodriguez - offense was so bad that Eddie never got a chance to show why he was the worst third base coach I ever covered."

"Bourgeois- should have been reprimanded after taking a batter off to take a dump. Lots of runners got picked off."

"Barfield - Sox had their choice of Jake McCarthy or Dominic Fletcher. Barfield, who came from the DBacks, chose Fletcher. How’s that working out?"

"Gene Watson - THE WORST! Glorified spy for Dayton Moore in KC, would have been fired last September had Getz not hired him. He scouts all over the country for players the Sox have no chance of signing. Knack for posing with celebrities or famous ballplayers and putting them on his social media account. Spent more time on the KC side during a three-game series at Guaranteed Rate, bothering the hell out of Bobby Witt Jr. during pregame BP to talk to Gene’s guests. Already has Levine and Merkin wrapped around his finger. Known as a consensus scout who can’t form an original evaluation."

"Katz is tied to Bannister, so he’s safe."

"As for the new coaches, Doug Sisson is a red ass who should have been hired years ago just to get in the faces of Grandal, Moncada, Anderson, etc."

"The sudden rise of Mike Gellinger, who Konerko adored. Gellinger makes so much money that Cleveland wanted to hire him but couldn’t match the money."
 

[almagest]

31 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

 Let me put it this way.  I fully believe if Rick and Kenny had stayed in charge, or if we had found a real GM to run this operation from day one, this would not be a 40 win team today.

Sounds like a KW/Hahn apologist to me

[southsider2k5]

7 minutes ago, almagest said:

You're right. No one expected all of Benintendi, Vaughn, Eloy, Moncada and Robert to be practically useless this year. And it's not revisionist history to realize how absolutely screwed this team is after what we've seen this year and the tons of insider feedback we've gotten about what an utter disaster this organization was under Rick and Kenny - so bad that even Reinsdorf had to fire KW, who he considered a son and who brought him a WS in 2005. A guy who Jerry blocked from interviewing for other roles. A guy who likely had a job for life, and yet still managed to screw it up somehow.

So this all happens under Getz's watch, but somehow the guys who aren't here are responsible for it.  You don't hear it yet?

[WhiteSox2023]

14 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

Reminder:  A couple months ago we had like a 10 page thread where people said trading some guy named Luis Rodriguez (that no one had ever heard of) for Corey Julks was a fireable offense for Getz.  More recently, there are people jizzing over Luke Keaschall just because we didn't trade for him. 

In this thread, we have the same people that relentlessly mocked WestEddy for crediting the Sox with developing Seby Zavala's defense switch to praising Zavala's defensive value. 

Some are accusing Getz of forcing Rick Hahn and Kenny Williams (!) to hire Pedro Grifol while at the same time claiming Jerry picks all the managers. 

There are a million things to criticize the Sox about.  Minor moves made by Chris Getz in his first 10 months as a GM in a season where he inherited a s%*# team and needed to cut payroll is pretty far down the list. 

And it turned out to be a pointless trade because Julks is a soon-to-be 29 year old outfielder with a .670 OPS that prevented Colas from getting any at bats.

Further, what good does a player like Vargas do for this team when he can’t play a position and has 5 years of control left, rather than 6 like a prospect that the Sox would have control over when they want to call him up?  Even if Vargas pans out, the Sox probably won’t be competitive until the end of his control.  With where this team is at, they should almost always be taking the promising prospect over a guy whose arbitration clock has already started.

Also, please provide some commentary on the Dominic Fletcher trade as well.

Finally, no one thinks Seby Zavala is any good.  The point was that Getz could have kept him at a minimum salary rather than waste $4.5 million dollars on the corpse of Maldonado, whom everyone knew was absolutely done.

Edited August 9 by WhiteSox2023

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

And it turned out to be a pointless trade because Julks is a soon-to-be 29 year old outfielder with a .670 OPS that prevented Colas from getting any at bats.

Please provide some commentary on the Dominic Fletcher trade as well.

Also, no one thinks Seby Zavala is any good.  The point was that Getz could have kept him at a minimum salary rather than waste $4.5 million dollars on the corpse of Maldonado, whom everyone knew was absolutely done.

And that he refuses to play.

As for Zavala, that was a statement of how bad the Moldy signing was if that Seby's replacement level ass would have been a major upgrade for $4 million less.

[almagest]

21 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

No doubt KW & Hahn are a major part of this mess, but not sure why Getz gets a free pass for this season being historically bad.  Our positional group has put up like -5 fWAR.  Not his fault that Benintendi sucks, but the rest is squarely on him like signing Maldonado, playing Sheets in the OF, giving away a platoon UT guy in Romy to then trade for platoon OF in Julks, not having a replacement caliber option at 1B/DH at AAA, flopping on the Fletcher & DeLoach trades, etc.  The bullpen also sucks and he did not a single RP he was able to flip in a market that was desperate for relievers (and let a good, controllable one go in Cronin).

And a huge reason the organization is in trouble in because there has been no pipeline of talent to fill in holes and offset normal regression.  And that’s 100% on him for sucking at his past job and still not being able to develop hitters in the minors (which he acknowledged yesterday).  Now, he does deserve credit for bringing in Bannister and making meaningful change on the pitching side, but beyond that most of what he has done (so far) has looked suspect.  That doesn’t mean things can’t get better, but I think people being unhappy and skeptical is a very reason take at this point.

Benintendi, Eloy and Vaughn alone are half of that negative fWAR. Moncada hasn't played in months, and probably won't play again this year. Robert isn't even at 1 fWAR yet. Those are the guys you counted on to be the "good" players. They were on the roster already and were going to play. They had to at least be decent for this team to be normal bad, no matter what.

Romy barely plays in the outfield. He's not an OF. Also, again, Romy also only has 100 AB, and would likely be exposed with the Sox because they would be forced to play him way more than the Red Sox.

There was no one else available in free agency or on the trade market (except McCarthy) that would get this team like 20 more wins then they have right now. McCarthy is much better than Fletcher this year. That looks like a miss, and doesn't bode well for Barfield if he was that bad at evaluating players in his org.

Getz isn't the only reason they are so barren in the minors. KW/Hahn did a terrible job drafting, signing and trading players.

Being unhappy and skeptical is fine. I am unhappy and skeptical. I am not wallowing in negativity and pinning all the blame on a guy who has only been doing this job for a year, in what is most certainly the worst organization in MLB. He's got another year to prove himself in my mind - he probably won't be fired even if he's awful because Reinsdorf, but if they don't start showing improvement then Getz needs to go too.

[almagest]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So this all happens under Getz's watch, but somehow the guys who aren't here are responsible for it.  You don't hear it yet?

So all of these guys would be better under KW/Hahn? Moncada and Eloy wouldn't have gotten hurt? How exactly does a change in SVP and GM accomplish that?

[almagest]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

And that he refuses to play.

As for Zavala, that was a statement of how bad the Moldy signing was if that Seby's replacement level ass would have been a major upgrade for $4 million less.

He wouldn't be. Zavala isn't in the majors anymore, same as Maldonado.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, almagest said:

He wouldn't be. Zavala isn't in the majors anymore, same as Maldonado.

That's almost getting the point without getting it right there.

[almagest]

16 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

In this thread, we have the same people that relentlessly mocked WestEddy for crediting the Sox with developing Seby Zavala's defense switch to praising Zavala's defensive value.

I have to admit, I'm cracking up each time Zavala's name comes up as the savior to the 2024 White Sox season.

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, almagest said:

So all of these guys would be better under KW/Hahn? Moncada and Eloy wouldn't have gotten hurt? How exactly does a change in SVP and GM accomplish that?

If Getz has no responsibility for what happens on the field, how exactly is he making things better?

[almagest]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

That's almost getting the point without getting it right there.

Oh no, I get your point - Maldonado is so bad even Zavala would be an upgrade. I'm just saying it's completely irrelevant.

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, almagest said:

I have to admit, I'm cracking up each time Zavala's name comes up as the savior to the 2024 White Sox season.

Literally no one said he was a savior.  You were on this quixote quest to get people to name names, and then totally missed what those names were about.