Pedro Grifol, Charlie Montoyo, Eddie Rodriguez, & Mike Tosar Fired (Grady Sizemore interim manager)

[WhiteSox2023]

Just now, almagest said:

He wouldn't be. Zavala isn't in the majors anymore, same as Maldonado.

Zavala was worth -0.4 bWAR this year and his salary was $756,700.

Maldonado was worth -1.3 bWAR and Getz gave him a guaranteed $4.5 million.

The Astros knew Maldonado was done.  Getz didn’t.  It was a bad signing.

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, almagest said:

So all of these guys would be better under KW/Hahn? Moncada and Eloy wouldn't have gotten hurt? How exactly does a change in SVP and GM accomplish that?

Getz fired his manager because he thought he had a roster that should win more games. yes Pedro and his idiot friends suck. But Getz is the GM for a team that may be historically bad. For that, he deserves the same fate he gave Pedro.

[almagest]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

If Getz has no responsibility for what happens on the field, how exactly is he making things better?

• Firing Pedro and his boys, even though Reinsdorf blocked him for most of the season
• Bringing Bannister onboard, which has shown immediate benefit both in the minors and majors
• Mentioned changing international scouting in the offseason
• Mentioned bringing a "hitting guru" onboard, like he did with Bannister

Getz has responsibility for the product on the field. Once again, I'm saying there's still a ton of cruft to get rid of from the previous regime and it's going to take more than a year to turn that around.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, almagest said:

Oh no, I get your point - Maldonado is so bad even Zavala would be an upgrade. I'm just saying it's completely irrelevant.

Now keep multiplying this all over the roster, and you have 20 games lost.  I would also point out that pretending that the guys who are always hurt on this team, being hurt, isn't a great excuse for why this team was bad.  They have been hurt in past seasons, and they were never a 40 win team before.  They grinded the hell out of the bullpen every year and it was never the worst in baseball.  They never said they were going to sign a bunch of mediocre guys to improve the defense, and pretty all were worse than the guys they replaced.  So while it is easy to mock the idea that a GM is responsible for his own actions, it is move after move that adds up a loss of 20 games in the standings.  We haven't even gotten to the trade failures and minor league horrors amongst the position players this year yet.

[almagest]

2 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Zavala was worth -0.4 bWAR this year and his salary was $756,700.

Maldonado was worth -1.3 bWAR and Getz gave him a guaranteed $4.5 million.

The Astros knew Maldonado was done.  Getz didn’t.  It was a bad signing.

Yes, it was. Maldonado over Zavala is not why this team is historically bad. It's barely a blip.

[WhiteSox2023]

1 minute ago, almagest said:

Oh no, I get your point - Maldonado is so bad even Zavala would be an upgrade. I'm just saying it's completely irrelevant.

Why is it irrelevant?  Yes, the Sox would have still been bad this season…  that’s obvious.  But it shows that Getz may have questionable player assessment skills.  He sure didn’t seem to think Maldonado was done, while the Astros knew it all too well.

[WhiteSox2023]

Just now, almagest said:

Yes, it was. Maldonado over Zavala is not why this team is historically bad. It's barely a blip.

Of course, but that isn’t the point.  See my above post.

[almagest]

1 minute ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Why is it irrelevant?  Yes, the Sox would have still been bad this season…  that’s obvious.  But it shows that Getz may have questionable player assessment skills.  He sure didn’t seem to think Maldonado was done, while the Astros knew it all too well.

He may have questionable assessment skills, sure. I'm not going to say he does for sure yet. I'll give him another year. That is literally all I have been saying this whole time.

[almagest]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

Now keep multiplying this all over the roster, and you have 20 games lost.  I would also point out that pretending that the guys who are always hurt on this team, being hurt, isn't a great excuse for why this team was bad.  They have been hurt in past seasons, and they were never a 40 win team before.  They grinded the hell out of the bullpen every year and it was never the worst in baseball.  They never said they were going to sign a bunch of mediocre guys to improve the defense, and pretty all were worse than the guys they replaced.  So while it is easy to mock the idea that a GM is responsible for his own actions, it is move after move that adds up a loss of 20 games in the standings.  We haven't even gotten to the trade failures and minor league horrors amongst the position players this year yet.

No, you don't, because they are getting the exact same production (or better) at every position Getz filled this year. I posted about this already, in detail. The main difference has been Benintendi, Vaughn, Eloy, Robert and Moncada have all been substantially worse than last year, even factoring in their injuries.

We've also been over how zero top 100 position prospects were traded at the deadline. We've also discussed how Getz recognized the need for a hitting guru like Bannister to help the minors.

@ptatc is absolutely right - even a soft differing opinion like "give the GM one more year because a lot of what's happening this year isn't his fault, it's the fault of the previous regime" is met with people who need to paint me as some blind Getz apologist and make a bunch of assumptions about what I'm saying without actually reading what I say.

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, almagest said:

No, you don't, because they are getting the exact same production (or better) at every position Getz filled this year. I posted about this already, in detail. The main difference has been Benintendi, Vaughn, Eloy, Robert and Moncada have all been substantially worse than last year, even factoring in their injuries.

We've also been over how zero top 100 position prospects were traded at the deadline. We've also discussed how Getz recognized the need for a hitting guru like Bannister to help the minors.

@ptatc is absolutely right - even a soft differing opinion like "give the GM one more year because a lot of what's happening this year isn't his fault, it's the fault of the previous regime" is met with people who need to paint me as some blind Getz apologist and make a bunch of assumptions about what I'm saying without actually reading what I say.

So we are back to Getz couldn't have possibly done anything to make this team better this year.  This is probably a good place to end this because it is one big circle of excuses.

[almagest]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

So we are back to Getz couldn't have possibly done anything to make this team better this year.  This is probably a good place to end this because it is one big circle of excuses.

Tell me what he could have done to make this team be on pace to win 20 more games. I provided a detailed breakdown of each player on the roster in a previous post, and I also covered how there wasn't much of anything out there in free agency that the Sox could've signed. All I've gotten from you is deflection, excuses and hand-wavey BS like "KW/Hahn would have somehow gotten 20 more wins out of the players they brought onboard!" and "Seby Zavala, the player I absolutely hated a few months ago, is now a defensive stud catcher who would be a difference maker even though he's not even in the majors anymore and wouldn't play over Korey Lee!"

[southsider2k5]

24 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Getz fired his manager because he thought he had a roster that should win more games. yes Pedro and his idiot friends suck. But Getz is the GM for a team that may be historically bad. For that, he deserves the same fate he gave Pedro.

Obviously this was all expected, which is why he fired the most of the game day staff.  Too bad he couldn't have done anything to fix this season at all.

[T R U]

I see a lot of people claiming this is a 40 win team.. that seems a little generous at this point.

[almagest]

24 minutes ago, T R U said:

I see a lot of people claiming this is a 40 win team.. that seems a little generous at this point.

You know this board is full of optimists.

[WestEddy]

13 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Their position player group is by far the worst in baseball.  Dude even went out and preached about bringing in all of these defenders to improve things and still managed to put out literally the worst defense in baseball.  He acquired low floor players who he then was scared to play.  He has churned somewhere around 70 players through this roster trying to find anyone who can play.

There is plenty to judge Getz on.

Getz had 4 of 8 positions to upgrade. He was stuck with 3 contracts, and a #3 overall pick. Lets look at each position:

C - He replaced Grandal with Maldonado as a sop to Grifol to help with clubhouse issues. Maldonado was a lateral move, but Lee/Maldonado was better than Grandal/Lee as a catching duo. 

1B - I'd argue Getz had to give Vaughn a full year to step up. He regressed, both offensively and defensively. 

2B - Has has been mentioned, this was a lateral move. Lopez is probably better defensively, worse offensively than Elvis. 

3B - Yoan is a great defensive player, got injured 11 games in. Ramos was probably a slight step down, Sosa/Mendick were much worse. It's hard to upgrade from Yoan. 

SS - DeJong was an obvious upgrade from Anderson. 

LF - Benintendi regressed. 

CF - Robert was injured. It's hard to replace his defensive production, even with an injured Luis Robert. 

RF - Fletcher/Pillar was an upgrade from Colas/Sheets of 2023, defensively. Even Pham was an upgrade. 

So when you're arguing that Getz failed in his main pursuit, 3 regulars regressed, defensively, one was injured. Of the 4 positions he could improve, Getz improved all 4, defensively. The regression of the 4 holdover positions dragged down the overall team ratings. 

[Tnetennba]

One single bad move in a vacuum isn't what sunk this team by 20+ games from the 101 loss team of 2023, it is the cumulative effect of many. Did Moldy sink the 2024 Sox alone? No. But did Moldy + the multitude of other mistakes Getz has made in 10 months on the job? 100% yes. Getz took a 101 loss team, reshaped the roster, and turned it into a 120+ loss team. How some think he bears no responsibility for that is baffling.

 

[Dick Allen]

40 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Getz had 4 of 8 positions to upgrade. He was stuck with 3 contracts, and a #3 overall pick. Lets look at each position:

C - He replaced Grandal with Maldonado as a sop to Grifol to help with clubhouse issues. Maldonado was a lateral move, but Lee/Maldonado was better than Grandal/Lee as a catching duo. 

1B - I'd argue Getz had to give Vaughn a full year to step up. He regressed, both offensively and defensively. 

2B - Has has been mentioned, this was a lateral move. Lopez is probably better defensively, worse offensively than Elvis. 

3B - Yoan is a great defensive player, got injured 11 games in. Ramos was probably a slight step down, Sosa/Mendick were much worse. It's hard to upgrade from Yoan. 

SS - DeJong was an obvious upgrade from Anderson. 

LF - Benintendi regressed. 

CF - Robert was injured. It's hard to replace his defensive production, even with an injured Luis Robert. 

RF - Fletcher/Pillar was an upgrade from Colas/Sheets of 2023, defensively. Even Pham was an upgrade. 

So when you're arguing that Getz failed in his main pursuit, 3 regulars regressed, defensively, one was injured. Of the 4 positions he could improve, Getz improved all 4, defensively. The regression of the 4 holdover positions dragged down the overall team ratings. 

Don't forget the lockdown bullpen you told us he built, and how Nastrini was going to be great because of Spring Training. 28-89. Getz sucks. Expansion teams do better.

Edited August 9 by Dick Allen

[WestEddy]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Don't forget the lockdown bullpen you told us he built, and how Nastrini was going to be great because of Spring Training. 28-89. Getz sucks. Expansion teams do better.

This has nothing to do with my post. I did say I liked the bullpen in Spring Training, and called it lockdown. 

I must be making a salient point, or else you wouldn't feel the need to sling a comment I said 5 months ago, or attribute something I don't recall saying about Nastrini - in order to derail the conversation. 

[southsider2k5]

13 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

One single bad move in a vacuum isn't what sunk this team by 20+ games from the 101 loss team of 2023, it is the cumulative effect of many. Did Moldy sink the 2024 Sox alone? No. But did Moldy + the multitude of other mistakes Getz has made in 10 months on the job? 100% yes. Getz took a 101 loss team, reshaped the roster, and turned it into a 120+ loss team. How some think he bears no responsibility for that is baffling.

 

Getz roster building in action

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

7 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

One single bad move in a vacuum isn't what sunk this team by 20+ games from the 101 loss team of 2023, it is the cumulative effect of many. Did Moldy sink the 2024 Sox alone? No. But did Moldy + the multitude of other mistakes Getz has made in 10 months on the job? 100% yes. Getz took a 101 loss team, reshaped the roster, and turned it into a 120+ loss team. How some think he bears no responsibility for that is baffling.

 

One of the weirdest things I've seen on here, which is saying something.

The most losses in franchise history was 106. Last year they lost 101 for the first time since 1970.

Getz is going to lose twenty+ more games than that. It's unbelievable. The Sox have had some awful teams and yet he destroyed them all.

People keeping saying the difference between this guy and Getz guy is .5, .3, etc WAR. Yeah people, no one is saying the previous sox were good or would he good. They lost the most games since 1970. Were saying Chris getz made a terrible team into a team so embarrassing that I have not been to a game. Haven't taken my son to his first game because this team is a literal embarrassment to the sport. Haven't watched a full game in months - I wouldn't miss a game in an 82 win season. 

Chris getz called out last years team. Then made them look like the 27 Yankees comparatively.

[almagest]

14 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

One single bad move in a vacuum isn't what sunk this team by 20+ games from the 101 loss team of 2023, it is the cumulative effect of many. Did Moldy sink the 2024 Sox alone? No. But did Moldy + the multitude of other mistakes Getz has made in 10 months on the job? 100% yes. Getz took a 101 loss team, reshaped the roster, and turned it into a 120+ loss team. How some think he bears no responsibility for that is baffling.

 

What are you defining as the mistakes that caused this roster to be 20+ games worse than last year, given the similar or better production provided by the position players brought in by Getz? The starting pitching is better overall. The bullpen is worse, but not by as much as I thought (91 ERA+ in 2023 vs 87 in 2024). It couldn't possibly be that every single position player regular left over from 2023 has been worse, could it?

[WestEddy]

13 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

One single bad move in a vacuum isn't what sunk this team by 20+ games from the 101 loss team of 2023, it is the cumulative effect of many. Did Moldy sink the 2024 Sox alone? No. But did Moldy + the multitude of other mistakes Getz has made in 10 months on the job? 100% yes. Getz took a 101 loss team, reshaped the roster, and turned it into a 120+ loss team. How some think he bears no responsibility for that is baffling.

 

I find it equally as baffling that people think he bears 100% of the responsibility. He inherited 4 positional players whose contracts dictated they start, and another whose #3 draft pick put a lot of weight on giving him a year to show his promise.  Getz entered the winter meetings with one starter in the pitching rotation, and about half a bullpen. It gets bandied about here that his budget was cut, and he did mention a difficulty attracting free agent pitchers here because of the defensive reputation. But that all gets miraculously forgotten when we throw around this 100% responsibility claim. 

So all of that said, no, I don't think Getz has been knocking it out of the park. I can't tell if he's been doing a truly horrendous job because of the white noise of everybody screaming about every single move. I like the draft. I like some of his trades, not so much on some others. We all yell that we don't want any real prospects to be promoted to the major league team so that Grifol can't ruin them, but then ignore the total offensive collapse of the team, or slow development of rookies on the big team. Getz just fired Grifol and his coach buddies. Win?

This team is in a rebuild. Bannister is a win. He's saying the right things about refocusing our international efforts, hiring a new manager and bringing in a "Bannister of hitting". People are simultaneously saying that W-L doesn't matter, but Getz failed horrifically because of W-L. So arguing points in a vacuum may feel like people defending Getz. I'm just defending me getting a chance to see a full year in the life of a GM to make my own decision, and not follow the mob here like a zombie. 

 

[Kyyle23]

When you are not a zombie 

[almagest]

3 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

When you are not a zombie 

"RRRRRRRR.... GETZ BAD. ZAVALA COMPETENT DEFENSIVELY. RRRRRRRRR"

[WestEddy]

3 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

When you are not a zombie 

The chat during and after the draft was ridiculous. Every pick in a weak draft had the regular nay-sayers spouting off the same canards. Yes, one has to learn to ignore the house narrative if one wants to find out what the people who know what they're talking about think.