MLB considering 6IP minimum for starters

[nrockway]

 

4 hours ago, greg775 said:

NRockway: You tell me about the extinction of the starting pitcher as a player that matters AT ALL and how that is good for the game. Because of analytics, it was decided starters should not face hitters in their third time at the plate in a game. Certainly not a fourth time. So that led to the ridiculous starter who often can't even go long enough to be eligible for a win. W/L record means NOTHING. All that matters are K's and I guess to a certain extent ERA even though the stat mongers don't care 'much' about ERA. Nobody will answer my question about how you feel about no starting pitchers to enter the Hall of Fame in the future. NONE unless there are a few stragglers out there who have a ton of wins. Cause the W/L stat is THE only stat that matters for Hall of Fame inclusion.

So also answer me Rockway ... Is the game in a state of crisis when you have made insignificant the role of the starting pitcher?? WIth batting average also a stat 'ruined' by the philosophy of HR/K all that matters, you've got what, 6-8 hitters in each league over .300? Is it good for the game to have no 25-year-old starters and up to ever gain admittance to the Hall? All we will care about from now on is how many K's a pitcher has. And that's not going to be remarkable cause virtually every pitcher who manages to go five innings will have between 8-12 K's. Sickening. Please respond, people. The extinction of the starting pitcher in MLB is akin to dinosaurs leaving the earth. Significant.

Greg, I appreciate your perspective, but personally I would distinguish less between "starting" and "relief" pitcher and just simply say that I want to watch good pitching, with the understanding that they tend to have different skillsets that might be more beneficial in certain situations.

For instance, I tend to think that a typical starting pitcher should have three reliable pitches and have reasonably good command on those pitches. I think that because I think the pitcher should be able to go far enough into a game that the bullpen can complete the game and there still be fresh pitchers for tomorrow's game. I think that because there are typically 13 pitchers on a roster and that the other 8 guys should probably do something. They are professionals, the best in the world, and the starting pitcher when he's off his game is not better than any of them. So why do you want to watch bad baseball? 

Consider that there is nothing preventing baseball teams from carrying fewer relief pitchers. Teams could roster fewer pitchers and carry an extra bat or two. That might be a beneficial strategy that helps you win games if you have enough starters who can go deep into games or a bullpen full of Bryan Shaws. So why don't baseball teams do that if it's "better" baseball? I think as a fan it's a more desirable product when "better" ball is being played, I don't want to watch a worse quality sport simply because I think the SP should go deep into games.

So rather than make a rule about it, if baseball teams thought it was beneficial toward winning games, they could make personnel decisions to carry pitchers who go can go deep into games in order to carry an extra platoon bat. Why doesn't any team do that though? Because it doesn't produce better baseball, the basic point I'm making is that this whole thing is blatantly disrespectful to relief pitchers and is probably con artistry to sell jerseys.

BTW, my favorite pitchers are groundballers and I think the strikeout is overrated. I sort of project into the future that pitching will move back toward that without any rule changes necessary. I do think that the "desirable" pitcher is someone who strikes everyone out all the time, but hitting will inevitably catch up and I think the pitcher's elbow and shoulder has pretty much stretched itself as far as it can go. Producing weak contact is a timeless skill, I think we'll see that again.

Edited August 17 by nrockway

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, greg775 said:

No, let's go back to when a starter can manage an entire game (Buehrle cough cough; Seaver cough cough; Hoyt, Jenkins, Stieb). Starting pitching was artestry not just bringing heat like today, It is even surprising Sox are even giving slowballer Drew Thorpe a chance at starting with the current mindset. I was reading some analytical mumbo jumbo about how the author was surprised we aren't at the point starters are flamethrowers who go 3 innings max, ideally recording 8 outs minimum by K. Go 3 flamethrowers per game three innings each. See if a hitter or two can connect for a HR and that's your 2 hour game. Let's say 3-1 or 4-2 with 3 homers in the 3-1 game and four homers and in the 4-2 game.

Your pitchers would be murdered in 2024, and would never make it 5 innings, let alone 8.

[greg775]

9 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Some rule changes make sense.  I get trying to speed games up, and I get player safety.  But forcing more pitchers to go longer into game in an era where we already have too many pitching injuries seemns pretty foolish to me.

Yet when the arms are being developed the pitchers throw the max allowed by league rules with no concern for arm building. Got to win at all costs. How bout build those arms up then in MLB let 'em learn to go 7-8 innings?

[JoeC]

9 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Not false. .

I'm talking about starters right now and only starting pitchers.

Under the current mindset caused by excessive analytics, starting pitchers age 25 and up have no shot at the Hall. Only stat from a starter of value now and in the future is gonna be Ks vs walks issued. And tons of starters will have a lot of Ks. In the former days, W/L was the first stat to look at for a starter; number of saves for a reliever.

So you're saying that starting pitchers in the future will be indistinguishable from one another, and that no pitchers will be judged as being outstanding compared to his peers of his era?

And why do closers get to go in the Hall? Saves didn't really become a valued stat until the 80's. Until then, you only got save opportunities because you weren't considered good enough to start. We should probably stick to that metric for safe measure.

[nrockway]

16 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Well, that's a huge problem, lol. Because of it being slowpaced and trying to win over people with short attention spans, the league faces some huge issues regarding its future. ... I'm not all for rules changes. The thing with the pitchers, I'd prefer figuring a way for the next generation to return to 8 inning starters without making some dumb rule starters have to go six. Six frankly doesn't satisfy greg. I want eight innings to be common on a good night (with no rule in place) and let the closer close. The more relievers you need to use the worse the game is. Baseball is loaded with incompetent relief pitchers. Finding a way to limit mound usage to 3 pitchers MAX per game would be beneficial. Even better would be starter goes eight on a good night with a Gossage closing it.

Does it though? Why do I care if the MLB appeals to ADHD Gen Z-ers, am I a shareholder? These guys will all make plenty of money with the fans they have.

 

8 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You think the pitch clock hasn't been a good thing for baseball?

I really don't. Something to appreciate about baseball is that there is no clock, it exists outside of time in a way, it only takes place in space. That is something I have always loved about baseball. I don't really give a s%*# if the game is over in 15 extra minutes, I'm typically watching the replay and skipping commercials anyway.

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, greg775 said:

Yet when the arms are being developed the pitchers throw the max allowed by league rules with no concern for arm building. Got to win at all costs. How bout build those arms up then in MLB let 'em learn to go 7-8 innings?

You ever see a guy sprint sub 10 second 100s for an entire marathon?  That's why.  Maximum effort and marathon don't equate.

[Texsox]

I would like to see teams allowed an offense lineup and a defense lineup. Basically universal DH. Caleb doesn't have to play D. Platoon it like football. 

 

[Falstaff]

MLB should allow the Sox games to go 6 innings instead of 9.

[Lip Man 1]

12 minutes ago, Falstaff said:

MLB should allow the Sox games to go 6 innings instead of 9.

Their record would be a LOT better that's for sure!

[Y2Jimmy0]

Development models are a big issue though. You can’t be super conservative with your minor league pitchers and then expect them to go 6 innings in the majors. Offense is bad though because pitchers are awesome now. Unless pitchers somehow get worse, hitters will continue to struggle. 

[ron883]

36 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Development models are a big issue though. You can’t be super conservative with your minor league pitchers and then expect them to go 6 innings in the majors. Offense is bad though because pitchers are awesome now. Unless pitchers somehow get worse, hitters will continue to struggle. 

Move the mound back 5 feet. Problem solved. 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Development models are a big issue though. You can’t be super conservative with your minor league pitchers and then expect them to go 6 innings in the majors. Offense is bad though because pitchers are awesome now. Unless pitchers somehow get worse, hitters will continue to struggle. 

I do think IF you do this, it has to have years of runway to prevent injuries. 

[Tnetennba]

Big picture, I need to know what MLB's end goal is with this. What are they hoping to achieve?

Requiring pitchers to do something they aren't trained or conditioned for certainly isn't going to curtail injuries. So what does rule accomplish exactly?

 

[WhiteSox2023]

22 hours ago, Falstaff said:

MLB should allow the Sox games to go 6 innings instead of 9.

Agreed.  Less punishment for Sox fans.

[southsider2k5]

On 8/17/2024 at 4:25 PM, Falstaff said:

MLB should allow the Sox games to go 6 innings instead of 9.

Sadly, they would still be 20 games out of first.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

On 8/18/2024 at 10:38 AM, southsider2k5 said:

I do think IF you do this, it has to have years of runway to prevent injuries. 

Why? It's 100 pitches. Starters should be conditioned to throw 100 pitches. If they're college kids they were throwing a lot more than that in certain starts. 

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Why? It's 100 pitches. Starters should be conditioned to throw 100 pitches. If they're college kids they were throwing a lot more than that in certain starts. 

For the types of reasons previously outlined, such as minor league conditioning programs.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

23 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

Big picture, I need to know what MLB's end goal is with this. What are they hoping to achieve?

Requiring pitchers to do something they aren't trained or conditioned for certainly isn't going to curtail injuries. So what does rule accomplish exactly?

 

They're trying to stop the March towards max effort and velo for as long as you can and then well bring in the next guy. Endurance needs to be considered for SPs, not just max effort. 

Guys in college football go from playing 12 games to possibly 21 in the NFL. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

For the types of reasons previously outlined, such as minor league conditioning programs.

Most of those things are a joke in the first place. Arm strength is built and maintained through usage. Not gradual builds and sudden stops. 

The computational analytics used in the pitching space has been hyper focused on spin/pitch shape and velocity at the demise of everything else. The industry needs to be forced to change because they're driving these kids over the edge into unsustainable territories as has been proven over and over again. 

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Most of those things are a joke in the first place. Arm strength is built and maintained through usage. Not gradual builds and sudden stops. 

The computational analytics used in the pitching space has been hyper focused on spin/pitch shape and velocity at the demise of everything else. The industry needs to be forced to change because they're driving these kids over the edge into unsustainable territories as has been proven over and over again. 

Starting is all about being conditioned to go a lot of pitches.  If they aren't, that's where problems start.