Reinsdorf keeps "failing" the White Sox...

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, Falstaff said:

Reindorf deserves to get called out but for all you younger Sox fans you might not know about Einhorn's disaster. Eddie Einhorn takes it upon himself without GM Roland Hemond's involvement in tossing Doug Drabek in as a player to be named later in a 1986 trade with the Yankees. Hemond was stunned with the absolute stupidity by Eddie but had to keep his mouth shut.

Drabek won the Cy Young in 1990 with the Pirates and was a stud from the late 1980's through the mid 1990's. The 1990 White Sox won 94 games with a young up and coming team, adding Drabek to that team would have been special. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Lip has written articles about this in the past.

Roy Smalley Jr.

[almagest]

3 hours ago, Falstaff said:

Reindorf deserves to get called out but for all you younger Sox fans you might not know about Einhorn's disaster. Eddie Einhorn takes it upon himself without GM Roland Hemond's involvement in tossing Doug Drabek in as a player to be named later in a 1986 trade with the Yankees. Hemond was stunned with the absolute stupidity by Eddie but had to keep his mouth shut.

Drabek won the Cy Young in 1990 with the Pirates and was a stud from the late 1980's through the mid 1990's. The 1990 White Sox won 94 games with a young up and coming team, adding Drabek to that team would have been special. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Lip has written articles about this in the past.

And then he came back to the Sox in 1997 when he was already washed.

[Lip Man 1]

11 hours ago, greg775 said:

It's 'funny' to think that when Reinsdorf/Einhorn bought the team there was much consternation and criticism of what they'd do to the franchise. 'Funny' that at the end of the JR tenure is when it finally showed its ugly head that people were right. Sox had been good enough years and mediocre enough years to go with 2005 for people to be moderately happy. Only the double tank years have shown JR's true side. Lousy owner who won't sell. Sad.

Jerry Reinsdorf was a “source of intrigue” and in the future could become a “source of controversy.” –From a story by reporter Linda Kay, Chicago Tribune January 30, 1981.

[Lip Man 1]

4 hours ago, Falstaff said:

Reindorf deserves to get called out but for all you younger Sox fans you might not know about Einhorn's disaster. Eddie Einhorn takes it upon himself without GM Roland Hemond's involvement in tossing Doug Drabek in as a player to be named later in a 1986 trade with the Yankees. Hemond was stunned with the absolute stupidity by Eddie but had to keep his mouth shut.

Drabek won the Cy Young in 1990 with the Pirates and was a stud from the late 1980's through the mid 1990's. The 1990 White Sox won 94 games with a young up and coming team, adding Drabek to that team would have been special. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Lip has written articles about this in the past.

Here you go:

July 18, 1984 - A dud of a deal because of the long-term implications. The Sox traded Chicago native, relief pitcher Kevin Hickey and prospect Doug Drabek (the player to be named later) to the Yankees for Roy Smalley.

Smalley did nothing on the South Side...eventually Drabek would wind up as the ace of the great Pirate teams of the early 1990's winning the Cy Young Award.

He finally pitched for the Sox in 1997 going 12-11 but his ERA was 5.74

[Stinky Stanky]

7 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

I’m certainly not gonna hold up Einhorn throwing in a a good player in a bad trade against Jerry Reinsdorfs entire tenure.  These are not remotely comparable

Who knows how much Einhorn did behind the scenes that Reinsdorf, as the front man,  took the heat for?  This comment is not meant to absolve JR of anything.

[Kyyle23]

4 minutes ago, Stinky Stanky said:

Who knows how much Einhorn did behind the scenes that Reinsdorf, as the front man,  took the heat for?  This comment is not meant to absolve JR of anything.

I didn’t say anything about absolving him, I said they are not remotely comparable 

[FloydBannister1983]

On 8/21/2024 at 2:36 PM, WhiteSox2023 said:

You act like I don’t know this.  You also seem to think that no GM under JR can have any success.  Then how did 2005 happen?  A GM under JR can also be terrible (see Chris Getz).

(In fairness 2005 was completely by accident.  Lightning in a bottle.)

[FloydBannister1983]

21 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I never said both can't be true but replacing Getz with someone else equally not suited for the job doesn't accomplish anything .

It doesn’t hurt either.

[Frank the Tank 35]

21 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It is not 2005 any more. 2005 only reinforced JRs thinking that some moves that turned into gold is possible when in reality it couldn't be sustained even the very next year.

Since my kids were lamenting the fact that I refused to take them to a Sox game this year, I pulled out the '05 WS box set for them to watch. I'm no expert, but you couldn't put together another miracle team like that in today's game. Compared to today's players' sculpted physiques, a lot of those guys look like beer league players. Tim Wakefield pitches like a position player pulled from the OF in a blowout game only he happens to throw a knuckleball. Pitchers got by on cunning and guile. Bobby Jenks throwing 92% straight 100mph fastballs would get crushed in today's game. Today's game has less luck and "moxie" than ever before and has more to do with analytics, biomechanics and being able to interpret and coach based on those. And, of course, the hubris at the top hasn't invested squat in that. 

[caulfield12]

27 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

(In fairness 2005 was completely by accident.  Lightning in a bottle.)

That team was also 26 games over .500 at the ASB in 2006 and would have been a playoff team were the Twins and Tigers not so crazy hot. 

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Frank the Tank 35 said:

Since my kids were lamenting the fact that I refused to take them to a Sox game this year, I pulled out the '05 WS box set for them to watch. I'm no expert, but you couldn't put together another miracle team like that in today's game. Compared to today's players' sculpted physiques, a lot of those guys look like beer league players. Tim Wakefield pitches like a position player pulled from the OF in a blowout game only he happens to throw a knuckleball. Pitchers got by on cunning and guile. Bobby Jenks throwing 92% straight 100mph fastballs would get crushed in today's game. Today's game has less luck and "moxie" than ever before and has more to do with analytics, biomechanics and being able to interpret and coach based on those. And, of course, the hubris at the top hasn't invested squat in that. 

Wakefield on the Sox?

Jenks was throwing sliders/cutters as well with his flatter FB.

Contreras was the best pitcher in baseball with just a fork and FB August 2005 until May 2006.

Garcia Garland Buehrle McCarthy all contributed mightily.  

Bullpen lights out despite going through three closers.

[Lip Man 1]

39 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Wakefield on the Sox?

Jenks was throwing sliders/cutters as well with his flatter FB.

Contreras was the best pitcher in baseball with just a fork and FB August 2005 until May 2006.

Garcia Garland Buehrle McCarthy all contributed mightily.  

Bullpen lights out despite going through three closers.

Wakefield started game #3 of the ALDS in Boston. I suspect that's what the poster meant, "Red" Sox. 

[Falstaff]

2 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

I didn’t say anything about absolving him, I said they are not remotely comparable 

Eddie was the brains behind SportsVision

[Lip Man 1]

42 minutes ago, Falstaff said:

Eddie was the brains behind SportsVision

Very true an idea like I wrote that was brilliant but was ahead of its time and doomed to fail because of outside forces. 

And of course his comment at the press conference about running a "first class operation" was ill advised with Bill Veeck sitting right there.  

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Wakefield started game #3 of the ALDS in Boston. I suspect that's what the poster meant, "Red" Sox. 

Right...tragic family circumstances.

But knuckleballs will always have their place in the sport...exact opposite of max velo.

Matt Waldron throws quite a few per game.

[Frank the Tank 35]

31 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Right...tragic family circumstances.

But knuckleballs will always have their place in the sport...exact opposite of max velo.

Matt Waldron throws quite a few per game.

Lip is right… the ‘05 box set comes with game 3 of the ALDS. Knuckleballers will have a place; it’s not my position they don’t. But watch his mechanics. He barely uses any leverage to play up his FB. He looks like a stiff position player. Then look at Waldron by comparison. He’s maxing out what his body can do. 
 

Jordan Hicks threw more 100+ mph FBs than just about anyone last year, and hitters teed off on the pitch hitting over .300 against it. 
 

Yes, the ‘05 Sox had a collection of nice pitchers, many of which had career years, and at the time, that magic all coalesced around one perfect season. 
 

Two decades later, however, the game has accelerated and evolved. Bobby Jenks  is just another high leverage reliever if you insert him into today’s game. Players are maxing out physically in a way they did not then hence all the injuries to the DeGroms of the world. A lot of this evolution is due to advancements in understanding and applying biomechanics to training methodologies and using advanced analytics to determine how to attack specific hitters/pitchers. If you’re not doing this, then you wind up with poor player development and being non-competitive. In today’s game, that is par for the course and creating some magic season from some bygone notion of the will to win becomes ever more elusive, if not impossible, if you’re not applying these things. 
 

The hill I’m willing to die on is that the ‘05 Sox was part talent and part just dumb luck, and we’d have a hell of a time trying to replicate that kind of magic in today’s game. 

[Stinky Stanky]

4 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

I didn’t say anything about absolving him, I said they are not remotely comparable 

I was referring to my own post about not absolving him.  I'm cool with yours.  Are we OK?

[Falstaff]

13 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Very true an idea like I wrote that was brilliant but was ahead of its time and doomed to fail because of outside forces. 

And of course his comment at the press conference about running a "first class operation" was ill advised with Bill Veeck sitting right there.  

If Edward DeBartollo was allowed to buy the White Sox the franchise would have been transformed into a first class organization.

[JoeC]

1 hour ago, Falstaff said:

If Edward DeBartollo was allowed to buy the White Sox the franchise would have been transformed into a first class organization.

I'd have more faith in Art Vandelay at this point.

[kitekrazy]

17 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

That team was also 26 games over .500 at the ASB in 2006 and would have been a playoff team were the Twins and Tigers not so crazy hot. 

Just think even 94 wins = 3rd place.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

Just think even 94 wins = 3rd place.

In the wild card system they would have been in.

[kitekrazy]

18 hours ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

(In fairness 2005 was completely by accident.  Lightning in a bottle.)

Must not be tuned into baseball much to make such a statement.  Rare for a MLB team to win back to back WS.

I find these are such ignorant statements.

Rays and Dodgers should have won most of the WS in the past 5 years.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

19 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Wakefield on the Sox?

Jenks was throwing sliders/cutters as well with his flatter FB.

Contreras was the best pitcher in baseball with just a fork and FB August 2005 until May 2006.

Garcia Garland Buehrle McCarthy all contributed mightily.  

Bullpen lights out despite going through three closers.

Lots of good players playing good and having either one of their best or career years.

No HOF players except Frank Thomas who only played in 34 games and none in the post season. 

Without knowing the percentages I think the majority of World Series winners had at least one HOF playing in  the World Series especially before playoffs were introduced. Can only find teams without a HOF at all and since Frank was a HOF the Sox don't qualify as a team without a HOF player .

The 1988 Dodgers had Don Sutton starting 16 games but he retired  mid season so he didn't play in the World Series.

Our friends the 2015 Royals don't have a HOF player yet and probably won't. There are more most notably after the playoffs added wild card teams. The Giant of 2010/12/14 stand out but Madison Bumgarner was a post season God and Buster Posey has a shot at the Hall starting in 2027.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

17 hours ago, Frank the Tank 35 said:

Lip is right… the ‘05 box set comes with game 3 of the ALDS. Knuckleballers will have a place; it’s not my position they don’t. But watch his mechanics. He barely uses any leverage to play up his FB. He looks like a stiff position player. Then look at Waldron by comparison. He’s maxing out what his body can do. 
 

Jordan Hicks threw more 100+ mph FBs than just about anyone last year, and hitters teed off on the pitch hitting over .300 against it. 
 

Yes, the ‘05 Sox had a collection of nice pitchers, many of which had career years, and at the time, that magic all coalesced around one perfect season. 
 

Two decades later, however, the game has accelerated and evolved. Bobby Jenks  is just another high leverage reliever if you insert him into today’s game. Players are maxing out physically in a way they did not then hence all the injuries to the DeGroms of the world. A lot of this evolution is due to advancements in understanding and applying biomechanics to training methodologies and using advanced analytics to determine how to attack specific hitters/pitchers. If you’re not doing this, then you wind up with poor player development and being non-competitive. In today’s game, that is par for the course and creating some magic season from some bygone notion of the will to win becomes ever more elusive, if not impossible, if you’re not applying these things. 
 

The hill I’m willing to die on is that the ‘05 Sox was part talent and part just dumb luck, and we’d have a hell of a time trying to replicate that kind of magic in today’s game. 

I love this post.

[Bob Sacamano]

17 hours ago, Frank the Tank 35 said:

Lip is right… the ‘05 box set comes with game 3 of the ALDS. Knuckleballers will have a place; it’s not my position they don’t. But watch his mechanics. He barely uses any leverage to play up his FB. He looks like a stiff position player. Then look at Waldron by comparison. He’s maxing out what his body can do. 
 

Jordan Hicks threw more 100+ mph FBs than just about anyone last year, and hitters teed off on the pitch hitting over .300 against it. 
 

Yes, the ‘05 Sox had a collection of nice pitchers, many of which had career years, and at the time, that magic all coalesced around one perfect season. 
 

Two decades later, however, the game has accelerated and evolved. Bobby Jenks  is just another high leverage reliever if you insert him into today’s game. Players are maxing out physically in a way they did not then hence all the injuries to the DeGroms of the world. A lot of this evolution is due to advancements in understanding and applying biomechanics to training methodologies and using advanced analytics to determine how to attack specific hitters/pitchers. If you’re not doing this, then you wind up with poor player development and being non-competitive. In today’s game, that is par for the course and creating some magic season from some bygone notion of the will to win becomes ever more elusive, if not impossible, if you’re not applying these things. 
 

The hill I’m willing to die on is that the ‘05 Sox was part talent and part just dumb luck, and we’d have a hell of a time trying to replicate that kind of magic in today’s game. 

Is there somewhere one can buy this? I regret not buying it at the time it was fresh.