Sox trying to fix Vargas

[wrathofhahn]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Kelenic can certainly play there...but his defensive metrics have always suggested it's a stretch to call him an everyday CFer.

It depends on whether he can ever hit. If he hits at .720 to .750 ops he'd be worth around 2-3 WAR.

Thats valuable. Vargas is going to have to hit way more than that to have any value at the ML unless he becomes a much better defender. I'd rather take my chances with Kelenic to be honest but ATL got him for much less. I said at the time we should have done the deal. 

[SoxAce]

Maybe Benintendi's shoulder fixed his vision from last night. 

[Balta1701]

25 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

It depends on whether he can ever hit. If he hits at .720 to .750 ops he'd be worth around 2-3 WAR.

Thats valuable. Vargas is going to have to hit way more than that to have any value at the ML unless he becomes a much better defender. I'd rather take my chances with Kelenic to be honest but ATL got him for much less. I said at the time we should have done the deal. 

With the defense the White Sox have seen from him so far? 

[wrathofhahn]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

With the defense the White Sox have seen from him so far? 

That was in reference to Kelenic. Most metrics have his defense as neutral or average at CF. With the position adjustment, if he hits for league average, that makes valuable at CF.

Vargas, I am not even going to get into that. It is not like this is just the product of a small sample size; nothing has suggested he will be an ok defender, and the scouting reports prior to the trade listed him as a poor fielder.

Vargas must hit in order to be valuable, that is the main point. The issue is that, even if we can get him to hit league average—which seems like an impossibly tall order at this point—his current defense will make him a zero or minus WAR player. He doesn't just need to hit but hit well to have value and when he doesn't hit like right now the lows are going to be much lower. It may not matter right now because well we are god awful but he's been unplayable

[WhiteSox2023]

3 hours ago, WestEddy said:

And Nicky Lopez went 5/7 from June 22/23. Can you direct me to your gushing posts on those magical 2 games?

Except Nicky Lopez has proven himself to be a garbage hitter over multiple seasons, not just a month.  But your small sample size argument does make some sense and can be supported.

However, when in your opinion will Vargas and Fletcher have enough plate appearances to be proven mediocrity?  Vargas has just about a full season with 530 career PA, while Fletcher has about half that at only career 276.   I would suggest not even looking at Vargas’s career line as it is that ugly.  Meanwhile, Fletcher has basically hit like an “on-fire” Nicky Lopez for his career.

[WhiteSox2023]

2 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

That was in reference to Kelenic. Most metrics have his defense as neutral or average at CF. With the position adjustment, if he hits for league average, that makes valuable at CF.

Vargas, I am not even going to get into that. It is not like this is just the product of a small sample size; nothing has suggested he will be an ok defender, and the scouting reports prior to the trade listed him as a poor fielder.

Vargas must hit in order to be valuable, that is the main point. The issue is that, even if we can get him to hit league average—which seems like an impossibly tall order at this point—his current defense will make him a zero or minus WAR player. He doesn't just need to hit but hit well to have value and when he doesn't hit like right now the lows are going to be much lower. It may not matter right now because well we are god awful but he's been unplayable

Yep, we just got rid of one worthless player (when he isn’t hitting and due to his terrible glove) for another.  Sad.

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Except Nicky Lopez has proven himself to be a garbage hitter over multiple seasons, not just a month.  But your small sample size argument does make some sense and can be supported.

However, when in your opinion will Vargas and Fletcher have enough plate appearances to be proven mediocrity?  Vargas has just about a full season with 530 career PA, while Fletcher has about half that at only career 276.   I would suggest not even looking at Vargas’s career line as it is that ugly.  Meanwhile, Fletcher has basically hit like an “on-fire” Nicky Lopez for his career.

The conversation was that nobody traded a top 100 prospect this deadline. The Cards wouldn't even part with Jordan Walker, who is high ceiling, but has shown about as much as Vargas has in the bigs. 

I don't know how long it will take for Vargas and Fletcher to grow into the roles Getz envisioned for them. You seem to expect them to plug in and be .300/.400/.500 hitters, or else they're garbage. And you've already admitted you're being harder on every move and player because you hate Getz, so if Dave Dombrowski became our GM, and Fletcher was his first trade, would you have been calling him garbage out the gate, then?

[WhiteSox2023]

16 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

The conversation was that nobody traded a top 100 prospect this deadline. The Cards wouldn't even part with Jordan Walker, who is high ceiling, but has shown about as much as Vargas has in the bigs. 

I don't know how long it will take for Vargas and Fletcher to grow into the roles Getz envisioned for them. You seem to expect them to plug in and be .300/.400/.500 hitters, or else they're garbage. And you've already admitted you're being harder on every move and player because you hate Getz, so if Dave Dombrowski became our GM, and Fletcher was his first trade, would you have been calling him garbage out the gate, then?

JR said that one advantage to promoting Getz was that he knew the team already, and even though this was mostly a BS reason given for promoting him, there is still some truth to it.  So yes, Getz had an advantage over someone being hired from the outside.  Getz has been with the Sox since 2017 as the director of player development, so logically he would have had an advantage over an external GM hire who never had an inside assessment or view of the organization.

But while your hypotheticals are a fun rabbit hole [excuse] to go down, Dombrowski unfortunately isn’t the Sox GM and we have no clue if he would have acquired a scrub like Fletcher.

But we all do know for a fact that Getz DID indeed acquire Fletcher, and even chose him over a better player in Jake McCarthy, because his assistant GM Barfield is apparently as bad as he is at evaluating players.

And I expected Fletcher and Vargas to both be .900 OPS star players?  These two scrubs can’t even manage to be league average players, much less reach a .650 OPS, but nice hyperbole…

Edited September 5 by WhiteSox2023

[WestEddy]

44 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

JR said that one advantage to promoting Getz was that he knew the team already, and even though this was mostly a BS reason given for promoting him, there is still some truth to it.  So yes, Getz had an advantage over someone being hired from the outside.  Getz has been with the Sox since 2017 as the director of player development, so logically he would have had an advantage over an external GM hire who never had an inside assessment or view of the organization.

But while your hypotheticals are a fun rabbit hole [excuse] to go down, Dombrowski unfortunately isn’t the Sox GM and we have no clue if he would have acquired a scrub like Fletcher.

But we all do know for a fact that Getz DID indeed acquire Fletcher, and even chose him over a better player in Jake McCarthy, because his assistant GM Barfield is apparently as bad as he is at evaluating players.

And I expected Fletcher and Vargas to both be .900 OPS star players?  These two scrubs can’t even manage to be league average players, much less reach a .650 OPS, but nice hyperbole…

Ho hum. JR's press conference. I suppose you'll always have that for rage bait. LOL. 

And there you go, avoiding answering a reasonable question with diversions. You love your tiny sample sizes when they support your "JR said something untrue at a press conference" narrative. Good thing Getz didn't grab up Michael A. Tucker and Canaan Smith-Njigba to take this team to the World Series Reinsdorf apparently promised us this year. U funny. 

[hi8is]

I’m walkin on sunshine… whoooaaaaaaaaoooooooo.

[Dick Allen]

7 hours ago, WestEddy said:

The conversation was that nobody traded a top 100 prospect this deadline. The Cards wouldn't even part with Jordan Walker, who is high ceiling, but has shown about as much as Vargas has in the bigs. 

I don't know how long it will take for Vargas and Fletcher to grow into the roles Getz envisioned for them. You seem to expect them to plug in and be .300/.400/.500 hitters, or else they're garbage. And you've already admitted you're being harder on every move and player because you hate Getz, so if Dave Dombrowski became our GM, and Fletcher was his first trade, would you have been calling him garbage out the gate, then?

What did Chris Getz do in his previous roles with the White Sox that give you this unwavering confidence that everything he does is so perfect? I know you were impressed withe the development of Seby Zavala; but what else? 32-109.

[WhiteSox2023]

7 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Ho hum. JR's press conference. I suppose you'll always have that for rage bait. LOL. 

And there you go, avoiding answering a reasonable question with diversions. You love your tiny sample sizes when they support your "JR said something untrue at a press conference" narrative. Good thing Getz didn't grab up Michael A. Tucker and Canaan Smith-Njigba to take this team to the World Series Reinsdorf apparently promised us this year. U funny. 

I admitted that JR’s press conference was a joke, but Getz still had an advantage of knowing the Sox organization and both its minor and major league players over an outside GM hire.

Your question was, “What if Dombrowski was GM of the White Sox and had traded for Dominic Fletcher?”  Why should I answer such a ridiculous question?  It isn’t a reasonable question because we aren’t living in the Twilight Zone where JR brings in a big expensive name for GM.  This would never happen, and you know this.  And I also couldn’t predict if he would trade for Fletcher or not, but I doubt he would.  Dombrowski was always about making big splashes in trades.  But I still have no idea if Fletcher is the type of player he would like in a smaller deal.  However, I do know that Getz traded for Fletcher.  That actually happened and is not hypothetical.

And holy hyperbole Batman, when did I ever say acquiring Tucker and Smith-Njigba would equate to a World Series or that one was ever promised?  Reinsdorf didn’t promise a record-setting shitshow of a season under Getz either, yet here we are…

But it is funny how quickly you resort to gaslighting when you can’t debate your point.  Here is something that IS true — YOU tried to use a small sample size of the Sox record over 25 games or so to show that they weren’t as bad as they are.  That hasn’t aged very well.

Vargas is not a small sample size.  He basically has a full season of plate appearances in his career with two teams at this point.  He looks terrible with the bat and his glove is atrocious as well.  Fletcher has about half that, but I don’t see any good offensive qualities in him, even though his glove looks good.  He has almost non-existent power for a guy whose primary position looks to be RF.

Edited September 5 by WhiteSox2023

[WhiteSox2023]

31 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

What did Chris Getz do in his previous roles with the White Sox that give you this unwavering confidence that everything he does is so perfect? I know you were impressed withe the development of Seby Zavala; but what else? 32-109.

Developed Seby Zavala — a 3rd string catcher; DFA twice this season by the Mariners and currently playing for their AAA team.

Acquired a potentially lockdown bullpen in the offseason — not even close.

Acquired numerous trade deadline flip candidates in the offseason, including Soroka, Flexen, Brebbia, Lopez, etc. — Hard nope.

[WestEddy]

46 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

What did Chris Getz do in his previous roles with the White Sox that give you this unwavering confidence that everything he does is so perfect? I know you were impressed withe the development of Seby Zavala; but what else? 32-109.

Dude, I really don't see the point of this comment. Getz is the GM. I have an unwavering attitude attitude of "wait and see" in the face of people like you whining that I'm not joining you in having a good cry. We're in the first year of a rebuild. I choose to not whine like a man-baby. Zavala was an example of the White Sox becoming able to develop the defensive side of a catcher's game.

What has Getz done? Revamped pitching development. It sure looks like he's cleaning house, which is what every Sox fan has been screaming about for the last ten years. 

Please tell me why I shouldn't just ignore your comments, going forward. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder towards me, and regularly misrepresent what I say. 

[WestEddy]

30 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I admitted that JR’s press conference was a joke, but Getz still had an advantage of knowing the Sox organization and both its minor and major league players over an outside GM hire.

Your question was, “What if Dombrowski was GM of the White Sox and had traded for Dominic Fletcher?”  Why should I answer such a ridiculous question?  It isn’t a reasonable question because we aren’t living in the Twilight Zone where JR brings in a big expensive name for GM.  This would never happen, and you know this.  And I also couldn’t predict if he would trade for Fletcher or not, but I doubt he would.  Dombrowski was always about making big splashes in trades.  But I still have no idea if Fletcher is the type of player he would like in a smaller deal.  However, I do know that Getz traded for Fletcher.  That actually happened and is not hypothetical.

And holy hyperbole Batman, when did I ever say acquiring Tucker and Smith-Njigba would equate to a World Series or that one was ever promised?  Reinsdorf didn’t promise a record-setting shitshow of a season under Getz either, yet here we are…

But it is funny how quickly you resort to gaslighting when you can’t debate your point.  Here is something that IS true — YOU tried to use a small sample size of the Sox record over 25 games or so to show that they weren’t as bad as they are.  That hasn’t aged very well.

Vargas is not a small sample size.  He basically has a full season of plate appearances in his career with two teams at this point.  He looks terrible with the bat and his glove is atrocious as well.  Fletcher has about half that, but I don’t see any good offensive qualities in him, even though his glove looks good.  He has almost non-existent power for a guy whose primary position looks to be RF.

If you "admitted JR's press conference was a joke", then it wouldn't come up as the basis of every single argument. 

This is the first year of a rebuild. I get it that you're surprised that the first year of a rebuild could result in a bad record. It gets tiresome laying out the same argument of what Getz was left to build from this season, comments about how free agents avoided the team because of bad defense/clubhouse rumors, etc - only to have you ignore them the next time you decide to start this all up again. 

The fact that Getz is revamping international scouting, and all the development systems as GM says to me he was stopped from doing that under Hahn/KW. 

You don't like Getz, because Jerry Reinsdorf lied in a press conference. Period. So you spend your days criticizing every single move multiple times to keep a narrative alive. 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

What did Chris Getz do in his previous roles with the White Sox that give you this unwavering confidence that everything he does is so perfect? I know you were impressed withe the development of Seby Zavala; but what else? 32-109.

I can't imagine spending that much time making excuses for Chris Getz.

[Kyyle23]

WestEddy, didn’t you make a thread a few months ago asking where you could find a more positive forum to talk about the Sox?  Did you?

[Jerry McNertney]

Getz was a horrible hire. I don't see how anyone could have assembled a worse ML team than the Getz 2024 White Sox.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

WestEddy, didn’t you make a thread a few months ago asking where you could find a more positive forum to talk about the Sox?  Did you?

Sure, but them someone said something sad about his idol, and he had to defend his honor!

[Dick Allen]

17 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Dude, I really don't see the point of this comment. Getz is the GM. I have an unwavering attitude attitude of "wait and see" in the face of people like you whining that I'm not joining you in having a good cry. We're in the first year of a rebuild. I choose to not whine like a man-baby. Zavala was an example of the White Sox becoming able to develop the defensive side of a catcher's game.

What has Getz done? Revamped pitching development. It sure looks like he's cleaning house, which is what every Sox fan has been screaming about for the last ten years. 

Please tell me why I shouldn't just ignore your comments, going forward. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder towards me, and regularly misrepresent what I say. 

Ignore them.  I’d ignore you, but is so ridiculous it’s entertaining. Chris has proven you wrong all season long. I just find it hard to believe that is was KW, RH, Jeremy Haber, Marco Paddy and all the rest that got the Sox into this unprecedented mess, but somehow, all along Chris Getz was a star, if they only had listen to him. He’s been showing you for months, he too, was part of the problem. You just tried to put a feather in his cap by revamping pitching development. Hasn’t that been his job mostof the previous 5 or 6 years? Player  DEVLOPMENT, Chris also waived Seby.

Edited September 5 by Dick Allen

[WhiteSox2023]

17 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

If you "admitted JR's press conference was a joke", then it wouldn't come up as the basis of every single argument. 

This is the first year of a rebuild. I get it that you're surprised that the first year of a rebuild could result in a bad record. It gets tiresome laying out the same argument of what Getz was left to build from this season, comments about how free agents avoided the team because of bad defense/clubhouse rumors, etc - only to have you ignore them the next time you decide to start this all up again. 

The fact that Getz is revamping international scouting, and all the development systems as GM says to me he was stopped from doing that under Hahn/KW. 

You don't like Getz, because Jerry Reinsdorf lied in a press conference. Period. So you spend your days criticizing every single move multiple times to keep a narrative alive. 

Regardless of what JR said, Getz had experience with this organization so he would know the current players better than an outside hire.  This would be an accurate assumption, no?

And “a bad record”?  How about a historically bad, record setting season?  Don’t minimize it!  Getz is going to do what no GM before him could accomplish, whether they were trying to win or tanking intentionally!  Now that’s truly impressive!

I also don’t think you can just assume that Hahn/KW prevented Getz from changing things, one way or the other.  Perhaps Getz simply didn’t want to rock the boat in his previous position?  But props to him for changing things now.

Finally, I don’t like Getz because the majority of his moves have been terrible, not because of a Reinsdorf press conference.  The narrative that Getz is a bad GM remains alive because the majority of his moves have sucked.

Edited September 5 by WhiteSox2023

[Kyyle23]

“To complain about the worst team in the history of the game,

is to become Man-Baby, unable to see the forest for the trees.  Sucking the thumb”

-Aristotle(s brother Jeff)

[WestEddy]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Ignore them.  I’d ignore you, but is so ridiculous it’s entertaining. Chris has proven you wrong all season long. I just find it hard to believe that is was KW, RH, Jeremy Haber, Marco Paddy and all the rest that got the Sox into this unprecedented mess, but somehow, all along Chris Getz was a star, if they only had listen to him. He’s been showing you for months, he too, was part of the problem. You just tried to put a feather in his cap by revamping pitching development. Hasn’t that been his job mostof the previous 5 or 6 years? Player  DEVLOPMENT, Chris also waived Seby.

Yeah, nobody's saying Chris Getz was a star but you. 

Okay. I'm done. 

[Milkman delivers]

These threads always remind me of a pattern I pointed out years ago. When a team is bad, there are two types of fans. One set attacks and ridicules the team. The other set attacks and ridicules the other type of fans. They’re both relieving the stress of rooting for a loser, but only one picks the right thing to be mad at.

[Paulie4Pres]

4 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Dude, I really don't see the point of this comment. Getz is the GM. I have an unwavering attitude attitude of "wait and see" in the face of people like you whining that I'm not joining you in having a good cry. We're in the first year of a rebuild. I choose to not whine like a man-baby. Zavala was an example of the White Sox becoming able to develop the defensive side of a catcher's game.

What has Getz done? Revamped pitching development. It sure looks like he's cleaning house, which is what every Sox fan has been screaming about for the last ten years. 

Please tell me why I shouldn't just ignore your comments, going forward. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder towards me, and regularly misrepresent what I say. 

What did Getz do? He assembled the worst roster in the history of the MLB, while not trying to be bad. I'm not sure how this is overlooked.