24-25 NFL Thread

[Kyyle23]

16 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

That is kind of missed in this comparative.  Pennix, Daniels and Nix seemed to be in college for ever. 

All were 5 or 6 year seniors in their second college team, no?

[Milkman delivers]

54 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I don't believe that Daniels, or anyone else, would be succeeding with the Beras.

They absolutely wouldn’t. But it’s nice that Williams was the obvious top choice by almost everyone, because now it cements how bad the Bears are as a franchise.

[Lip Man 1]

Meh, rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

They'll fire the head coach at the end of the year and bring in another worthless, milquetoast stiff. 

[fathom]

don’t know if anyone posted this, but what a total shitshow

 

[Kyyle23]

Requesting Bagent starts?  That sounds like bs, come on now.  The other stuff fine but gimme a break on veterans asking for that

[WhiteSox2023]

3 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Requesting Bagent starts?  That sounds like bs, come on now.  The other stuff fine but gimme a break on veterans asking for that

Just heard this reported on ESPN1000.  A few veterans have supposedly requested a change at QB.

The Bears appear to be trying hard to match the embarrassment of the White Sox.

Edited November 12 by WhiteSox2023

[WhiteSox2023]

42 minutes ago, Milkman delivers said:

They absolutely wouldn’t. But it’s nice that Williams was the obvious top choice by almost everyone, because now it cements how bad the Bears are as a franchise.

Yep.  At this point, it doesn’t matter who the Bears choose.  They are like the White Sox minor league farm system for position prospects.

[fathom]

5 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Requesting Bagent starts?  That sounds like bs, come on now.  The other stuff fine but gimme a break on veterans asking for that

Lot of people think it was Moore requesting that 

[LittleHurtCG]

2 minutes ago, fathom said:

Lot of people think it was Moore requesting that 

Moore has a right to be pissed off. The Bears brought in an incompetent offensive coordinator and paired him with an overhyped rookie quarterback. Fields and DJ had a very nice thing going. Caleb is running around like a chicken with his head cut off most plays and the NFL game appears too fast for him right now. 

[Kyyle23]

4 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

Moore has a right to be pissed off. The Bears brought in an incompetent offensive coordinator and paired him with an overhyped rookie quarterback. Fields and DJ had a very nice thing going. Caleb is running around like a chicken with his head cut off most plays and the NFL game appears too fast for him right now. 

He is running around like a chicken with his head cut off because he has some of the worst time in the pocket in the entire league.  He has had some slow release times but right now it’s all compounding because he has no time to process at all

[almagest]

This post (and thread) adds a lot of clarity on how/why Caleb is holding onto the ball - often, he's progressing in his reads and hanging in the pocket, but nothing is open. Lots of coverage sacks.

 

Edited November 12 by almagest

[Dick Allen]

15 minutes ago, almagest said:

This post (and thread) adds a lot of clarity on how/why Caleb is holding onto the ball - often, he's progressing in his reads and hanging in the pocket, but nothing is open. Lots of coverage sacks.

 

So wait, Justin Fields had the same receivers or worse, and they were open all the time?  There is a lot there for Caleb, it all isn't his fault, but he does hold the ball too long and has been very inaccurate with a lot of his throws.

[Tony]

14 minutes ago, almagest said:

This post (and thread) adds a lot of clarity on how/why Caleb is holding onto the ball - often, he's progressing in his reads and hanging in the pocket, but nothing is open. Lots of coverage sacks.

 

There is also a narrative out there (which may very well be true) that it has been pounded into Caleb's head he needs to be conservative, not turn the ball over under any circumstances. If true, it seems like it's made him incredibly tentative, and given what we saw with Fields...it seems like it's very possible that's the case. 

[LittleHurtCG]

25 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

He is running around like a chicken with his head cut off because he has some of the worst time in the pocket in the entire league.  He has had some slow release times but right now it’s all compounding because he has no time to process at all

The offesnive line has been bad no doubt about that. Caleb has also been terrible as well. All of his inaccurate throws are not on the offesnive line. 

Drake Maye is doing more with a lot less in New England. So many excuses for a supposed generational quarterback. 

[Snopek]

29 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said:

The offesnive line has been bad no doubt about that. Caleb has also been terrible as well. All of his inaccurate throws are not on the offesnive line. 

Drake Maye is doing more with a lot less in New England. So many excuses for a supposed generational quarterback. 

Caleb has not been good and the midseason regression is concerning. He definitely deserves some blame here...

BUT

•  The offensive line isn't just bad, it's 2024 white sox levels of bad
•  Receivers are not open on many plays
•  The play calling has no rhythm, imagination or identity
•  Caleb is a ROOKIE

I would consider those reasons for his lack of success, not excuses.

Again, Caleb deserves some blame, but he has not even remotely been set up for success.

 

[almagest]

42 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

So wait, Justin Fields had the same receivers or worse, and they were open all the time?  There is a lot there for Caleb, it all isn't his fault, but he does hold the ball too long and has been very inaccurate with a lot of his throws.

No. Fields would often just tuck and run if his first read wasn't there. We also saw Fields for three years. We know what he is, and what he can/can't do. Williams is through nine games. He deserves a little time.

As for the rest - what I posted addresses a good chunk of the long holds. There's almost nothing there, whether its because the play timing is off (could also be Caleb), receivers aren't putting in enough effort to block or run their routes, receivers aren't winning in time, or the personnel usage is bad and you have guys running routes they can't win.

42 minutes ago, Tony said:

There is also a narrative out there (which may very well be true) that it has been pounded into Caleb's head he needs to be conservative, not turn the ball over under any circumstances. If true, it seems like it's made him incredibly tentative, and given what we saw with Fields...it seems like it's very possible that's the case. 

It is 100% true. Look at what Eberflus said after the Colts game. Right away, his focus was on the interceptions. We also saw Fields be very, very cautious with Eberflus. It's even in his stupid HITS system acronym - T is about 'The ball'. Caleb needs to be allowed to make mistakes.

[bmags]

It, in retrospect, was very concerning that the 2023 seahawks added JSN and Zach Charbonnet to a group that had an established Geno, DK Metcalf, ROTY running back, and Tyler Lockett and...finished 22nd in scoring.

Their complaints were of extreeeemely limited route trees, some of which we've seen for especially DJ. 

[almagest]

8 minutes ago, bmags said:

It, in retrospect, was very concerning that the 2023 seahawks added JSN and Zach Charbonnet to a group that had an established Geno, DK Metcalf, ROTY running back, and Tyler Lockett and...finished 22nd in scoring.

Their complaints were of extreeeemely limited route trees, some of which we've seen for especially DJ. 

I am never talking myself into believing a Bears OC hire is a good hire ever again, especially when so much comes out about how that guy stinks.

[PaleAleSox]

1 hour ago, LittleHurtCG said:

The offesnive line has been bad no doubt about that. Caleb has also been terrible as well. All of his inaccurate throws are not on the offesnive line. 

Drake Maye is doing more with a lot less in New England. So many excuses for a supposed generational quarterback. 

Drake Maye had more guys open in the middle of the field last game than Caleb has had all year.

[nitetrain8601]

39 minutes ago, Snopek said:

Caleb has not been good and the midseason regression is concerning. He definitely deserves some blame here...

BUT

•  The offensive line isn't just bad, it's 2024 white sox levels of bad
•  Receivers are not open on many plays
•  The play calling has no rhythm, imagination or identity
•  Caleb is a ROOKIE

I would consider those reasons for his lack of success, not excuses.

Again, Caleb deserves some blame, but he has not even remotely been set up for success.

 

I agree with a lot of this. Caleb also leads the league in uncatchable balls. He has 3 receivers in the top 10 of uncatchable balls thrown their way as well. He's routinely overthrowing receivers, especially on deep balls because his few INTs at the beginning of the year got him skittish. He has to unleash the dragon like Rex Grossman did.

Receivers are also not getting open. I do think some have quit on him or are acting out. Whatever it is, teams are playing man defense the 2nd most against the Bears and it's working because their receivers are not getting open. Caleb also won't throw to Cole. People want to put that 100% on Shane, but Cole's on the field and he is schemed open. He just won't rip the ball to him.

Perhaps the biggest issue outside of OLine, has been the responsibility with the lack of accountability to Caleb Williams. Clearly he's feeling pressure. As a HC and OC, you simplify the game for him. Take away audible responsibilities, make him a 2 read and go QB. Design some easy slants over the middle. Limit him to no more than 3 throws over 15 yards per game. People think it's all on Shane for doing a screen on 3rd and 3 to DJ Moore, when it's Caleb audibling into that play. He has to have a coach who holds him accountable and actually coaches him. 

He has talent and definitely would not trade him straight up for Jayden at this point. But he does have to be coached. Eberflus is not the guy to do that.

[bmags]

4 minutes ago, almagest said:

I am never talking myself into believing a Bears OC hire is a good hire ever again, especially when so much comes out about how that guy stinks.

That JSN interview was an immediate red flag right? I think it's going to be pretty hard for fans to actually know who a good OC is. It's clear I gave him way too much credit for Geno's resurgence, which may have been baked in from just years of experience gradually chipping away at his issues.

On the same end...is dave canales given too much credit for Tampa? He was from waldron, and their run game was pretty meh. Baker keeps killing it.

OTOH, probably not enough credit given to Kliff for giving such a smooth on-ramp to Kyler, actual, tangible experience in getting a rookie qb to perform right away in nfl.

Ben Johnson may be given too much credit then for Goff...that offense is talented. OTOH, it looked like s%*# under Anthony Lynn, and he seems to have a fire to crush the other team. It's a shot worth taking.

John Fox was bad as a HC, checked out, but he could hire coaches. Boy...bad coaches seem to hire bad coaches, dont they?

[bmags]

3 minutes ago, nitetrain8601 said:

I agree with a lot of this. Caleb also leads the league in uncatchable balls. He has 3 receivers in the top 10 of uncatchable balls thrown their way as well. He's routinely overthrowing receivers, especially on deep balls because his few INTs at the beginning of the year got him skittish. He has to unleash the dragon like Rex Grossman did.

Receivers are also not getting open. I do think some have quit on him or are acting out. Whatever it is, teams are playing man defense the 2nd most against the Bears and it's working because their receivers are not getting open. Caleb also won't throw to Cole. People want to put that 100% on Shane, but Cole's on the field and he is schemed open. He just won't rip the ball to him.

Perhaps the biggest issue outside of OLine, has been the responsibility with the lack of accountability to Caleb Williams. Clearly he's feeling pressure. As a HC and OC, you simplify the game for him. Take away audible responsibilities, make him a 2 read and go QB. Design some easy slants over the middle. Limit him to no more than 3 throws over 15 yards per game. People think it's all on Shane for doing a screen on 3rd and 3 to DJ Moore, when it's Caleb audibling into that play. He has to have a coach who holds him accountable and actually coaches him. 

He has talent and definitely would not trade him straight up for Jayden at this point. But he does have to be coached. Eberflus is not the guy to do that.

Craziest thing with Caleb by far has been his overthrowing guys by 30 yards on deep balls. It would have completely changed offense if he hit a few more of those. But I also just still have a hard time believing that's a long-term thing.

[nitetrain8601]

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

That JSN interview was an immediate red flag right? I think it's going to be pretty hard for fans to actually know who a good OC is. It's clear I gave him way too much credit for Geno's resurgence, which may have been baked in from just years of experience gradually chipping away at his issues.

On the same end...is dave canales given too much credit for Tampa? He was from waldron, and their run game was pretty meh. Baker keeps killing it.

OTOH, probably not enough credit given to Kliff for giving such a smooth on-ramp to Kyler, actual, tangible experience in getting a rookie qb to perform right away in nfl.

Ben Johnson may be given too much credit then for Goff...that offense is talented. OTOH, it looked like s%*# under Anthony Lynn, and he seems to have a fire to crush the other team. It's a shot worth taking.

John Fox was bad as a HC, checked out, but he could hire coaches. Boy...bad coaches seem to hire bad coaches, dont they?

Huge red flag. I liked Kliff. People hated him for what he did as a head coach at the end. But clearly, he helped Kyler become a 200 million QB and he hasn't matched that success or surpassed it with any other coach. He stopped getting good because of his own mentality, often opting to play Call of Duty as opposed to studying the playbook.

 

But people held that against Kliff. And maybe he lacked the ability to lead an entire team, but his offenses have worked. He came from the Mike Leach Air Raid school. He's developed a couple of guys already. With that stated, he was smart enough to tell Washington that he needed a couple of lineman to give his QB time.

4 minutes ago, bmags said:

Craziest thing with Caleb by far has been his overthrowing guys by 30 yards on deep balls. It would have completely changed offense if he hit a few more of those. But I also just still have a hard time believing that's a long-term thing.

Very true. His deep ball accuracy, which was a strong suit has completely abandoned him in the NFL so far. I also hope it's temporary, but half a season and I don't think he's hit on it yet makes me pause.

[caulfield12]

6 hours ago, Harry Chappas said:

That is kind of missed in this comparative.  Pennix, Daniels and Nix seemed to be in college for ever. 

Cam Ward is going to be 23 next summer before his rookie season in the NFL.

There are really ZERO standout franchise QB's this time around, compared to the unquestioned top 3 in 2024.

Sanders, Milroe, Ewers, Nussmeier, Beck, Gabriel, all with major flaws in their games.

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, Snopek said:

Caleb has not been good and the midseason regression is concerning. He definitely deserves some blame here...

BUT

•  The offensive line isn't just bad, it's 2024 white sox levels of bad
•  Receivers are not open on many plays
•  The play calling has no rhythm, imagination or identity
•  Caleb is a ROOKIE

I would consider those reasons for his lack of success, not excuses.

Again, Caleb deserves some blame, but he has not even remotely been set up for success.

 

Plus, Odunze also a rookie with perhaps unrealistic expectations...not unlike Harrison with the Cardinals, very up and down season, like a lot of the Bears' players outside of Swift for the last 6 weeks or so.