Why everyone so high on

[Rex Hudler]

Yes, but in 99% of these cases the scouting report OVERESTIMATES the velocity of a pitcher not underestimates it. BA says that his velocity is also in the upper-80's, and I will take their word(as well as a couple of other credible scouting reports) over yours, since they get paid to scout talent.

 

Take who's word you want, but I have seen him pitch more than any one you are quoting. If you can't comprehend the fact that I can sit with a scout and see the radar gun consistently at 91-92 when he pitches, then you are hopeless. I would rather you say "wow, Rex, I had heard he didn't throw that hard, I'm surprised to find out different", but you can't because you are the one that always has to be right, which is idiotic.

 

I absolutely hate when people do this. Why don't we just take away the 2 worst starts for every pitcher and then compare ERA's?

 

Doesn't matter what YOU hate...... if you want to site numbers rather than knowledge gained from actually watching someone pitch, then look into the numbers. If you don't understand the difference between a guy that was very good for 22 games and s***ty for 2 and a guy that was consistently average, then you are looking at the game with blinders on.

 

Jeff Bajenaru this year had an ERA of 3.20. His ERA was 2.15 minus one outing in which he gave up 8 runs in two innings. He was left out there because the game was out of hand and the bullpen was taxed. He basically took one for the team. If you don't think the Sox and "those who are paid preofessionally to scout" don't take things like that into consideration, then you don't understand the game at all. Hide behind stats all you want, but you can find out more by looking into those numbers and watching the player play. Hopefully one day you will understand that.

 

 

Because that is the most worthless thing you can do. You can't take away a couple of starts and make a comparison. What would you do if I took away his 2 best starts and showed that when you do that his ERA is in the upper-4's?

 

Okay, take away his two best and his two worst and his ERA was 3.76, still more than respectable.

 

The injury arguement works against him more then it works for him.

 

I said that. But because a guy got injured one time doesn't make him injury prone. It means he got injured. Simple as that. But to try and use his numbers while he is recovering from an injury, you are using skewed numbers. To say he sucks because he had a 4.76 ERA in 2002 when that was based on 6 games and an injury IS assinine, whether you can see it or not.

 

On a different note, just because a couple of credible scout reports disagree with you doesn't mean they are wrong.

 

It does when I can watch him throw 91-92 with my own eyes, consistently. You act like I saw him pitch one time....

 

Has it ever crossed your mind that you could be wrong? Probably not considering that you come off as one of those guys that always has to be right not matter how wrong they are.

 

Hate to break it to you, but that is the pot calling the kettle black. You think you know everything and are not open to new information. That is not my problem.

 

And sure, I've been wrong before. But I generally am not because I pick and choose my battles. I generally find I am wrong before I decide to post something, but if I am wrong, I admit it.

 

You need to learn to read and comprehend better. Please go back to my orginal post in which I state that I do watch games in which I formulate my own opinions

 

So how many times have you seen Mitch Wylie pitch?? How many times have you watched a radar gun measure his speed?? Perhaps you should hold off forming opinions on guys you have actually seen.

 

The stupid part of all of this is that I think Mitch has a so-so chance of making the big leagues and you think he has none. We are splitting hairs, but because you refuse to believe I have actually seen the guy pitch a time or two and know that he is not a "junkballer", you have to try to prove me wrong. This whole conversation has been stupid and began because you can't be open to new information because you always have to be right. Get a life!

[whitesox61382]

This will be my last post on this issue because it really isn't worth fighting over. I will let you have the final word because I know you are itching to respond because you always have to be right(although you might not respond now that I have called you out in an attempt to try and prove a point).

 

"Take who's word you want, but I have seen him pitch more than any one you are quoting."

 

This proves my point, you have no clue if that is the truth or not, but you always have to be right. Grow up and open your eyes to other peoples opinions and perspectives. The world doesn't revolve around you, and I don't know if there is any other poster that is more selfish then you. I always attempt to view things from both sides of the arguement and realize that people are welcome to their opinion. I don't doubt that you have seen him play, but to make the assumption that you have seen him more then any other scout is nothing more then a selfish attempt of your to try and prove a point since it might or might not be true. Sad buddy.

 

"If you can't comprehend the fact that I can sit with a scout and see the radar gun consistently at 91-92 when he pitches, then you are hopeless."

 

Why should I HAVE TO COMPREHEND something that may or may not be true? Once again another selfish attempt on your behalf to prove a point. If I have learned one thing from the internet it is to not believe everything you read. It is very easy to lie, so why should I have to comprehend something that can't prove and may or may not be true? I have learned to believe only what I can see or read from a credible site. I could say that I am a millionaire and then say why can't you comprehend this fact, which is what you just did(whether it is true or not). Maybe if you learn to see things from both sides you will have a better understand of baseball and how the world works. Sad buddy.

 

"I would rather you say "wow, Rex, I had heard he didn't throw that hard, I'm surprised to find out different", but you can't because you are the one that always has to be right, which is idiotic."

 

Of course you would, this only shows your selfishness. You want people to agree with everything you say whether it is true or not, which takes away their own opinion which they are more then welcome to whether you like it or not. Please tell me that you really aren't this selfish in real life.

 

"if you want to site numbers rather than knowledge gained from actually watching someone pitch, then look into the numbers."

 

Why can't you comprehend that I have also seen him play numerous times? How do you like your own medicine. When I say him pitch(one of the three times) he wasn't throwing that hard and was throwing slower then his opponent(who was reportedly throwing 90-92). Based on that, and multiple credible scouting reports that say he throws in the upper-80's I have formulated my opinion and can support it? You can't so why should I believe you? You are welcome to your opinion, but unless you can prove it you better not call it fact.

 

"If you don't understand the difference between a guy that was very good for 22 games and s***ty for 2 and a guy that was consistently average, then you are looking at the game with blinders on."

 

Anyone who thinks they can take away a few selected games to make their point stronger is the ones with blinders on. Even Brando agrees. For some reason you can't understand that you can't take out selective starts to prove a point. The reason is that you would have to take the 2 worst starts from EVERY starting pitcher at that level to make an accurate comparison. If you do that, than the average ERA will fall drasticly and when you compare Wylie's ERA without those 2 starts to the rest of the league it will still be below average. This is why it is worthless to remove selective starts. What if I removed his 2 best starts(keeping his 2 worst starts) and show that his ERA is in the high 4's? Is that a good indicator of his average start considering I just did the exact same thing you did? Its not that hard to comprehend why that is an inaccurate way to look at things.

 

"Okay, take away his two best and his two worst and his ERA was 3.76, still more than respectable."

 

No, you didn't comprehend that right. Keep his 2 worst starts and take out his 2 best starts, which will result in an ERA in the high-4's. Couldn't i say that is a better indication of his average, because thats what you are doing? It helps when you see things both ways.

 

"It does when I can watch him throw 91-92 with my own eyes, consistently. You act like I saw him pitch one time...."

 

You can call me selfish and say that I always have to be right(which is debatable), but with statements like this you PROVE that you are selfish and feel that every one of your OPINIONS is fact. You simple can't aspect the fact that you are not always right and that you could be wrong. Sad buddy.

 

"Hate to break it to you, but that is the pot calling the kettle black. You think you know everything and are not open to new information. That is not my problem."

 

I have said that everything you claim to be true MIGHT be true, and I am not open to new info? Please see the above statements in which YOU PROVE that you aren't open to new ideas, are selfish, and always have to be right. Once again evidence is hard to argue against and you show your true colors in this post.

 

"And sure, I've been wrong before. But I generally am not because I pick and choose my battles. I generally find I am wrong before I decide to post something, but if I am wrong, I admit it."

 

When have you ever admitted that you are wrong? Besides it proves, in most cases NO ONE IS RIGHT OR WRONG, thats the beuaty of opinions, and something that you continue to not comprehend.

 

"So how many times have you seen Mitch Wylie pitch?? How many times have you watched a radar gun measure his speed?? Perhaps you should hold off forming opinions on guys you have actually seen."

 

Perhaps you shouldn't make assumptions that you have no clue about. How do you know I haven't seen him pitch? You ask how come I question that you have seen him pitch and then do the same thing later in your post. It would help if you didn't contradict yourself.

 

"The stupid part of all of this is that I think Mitch has a so-so chance of making the big leagues and you think he has none."

 

For the record, I NEVER said that he has no chance to make the majors. I said that it is HIGHLY unlikely(I don't want him to get a cup of coffee and then you say I told you so). I will go out on a limb and say he will NEVER be a solid everyday plitcher in the majors.

 

"but because you refuse to believe I have actually seen the guy pitch a time or two and know that he is not a "junkballer", you have to try to prove me wrong."

 

This is your opinion. Just because you don't think he is a junkballer doesn't mean pro-scouts and myself can't have the opinion that he is, does it? Its not about proving you wrong as it is about opening you up to other peoples opinions and perspectives. I respect your opinion whether I came out and say it or not, but you continue to fail to realize that other people are welcome to their opinion, and just because it doesn't agree with yours doesn't mean it is wrong.

 

"Get a life!"

 

Ditto!

[BrandoFan]

Anyone who thinks they can take away a few selected games to make their point stronger is the ones with blinders on. Even Brando agrees

 

Hey! I resent being a designated village idiot on Soxtalk.

 

 

 

Ah, who am I kidding!

[Rex Hudler]

You keep rehashing the same absurd s***...... and it still proves nothing.

 

Believe what you want to. I know what I know and what I see and will stand behind that all day long.

[quickman]

Take who's word you want, but I have seen him pitch more than any one you are quoting.  If you can't comprehend the fact that I can sit with a scout and see the radar gun consistently at 91-92 when he pitches, then you are hopeless.  I would rather you say "wow, Rex, I had heard he didn't throw that hard, I'm surprised to find out different", but you can't because you are the one that always has to be right, which is idiotic.

 

 

 

Doesn't matter what YOU hate...... if you want to site numbers rather than knowledge gained from actually watching someone pitch, then look into the numbers.  If you don't understand the difference between a guy that was very good for 22 games and s***ty for 2 and a guy that was consistently average, then you are looking at the game with blinders on. 

 

Jeff Bajenaru this year had an ERA of 3.20.  His ERA was 2.15 minus one outing in which he gave up 8 runs in two innings.  He was left out there because the game was out of hand and the bullpen was taxed.  He basically took one for the team.  If you don't think the Sox and "those who are paid preofessionally to scout" don't take things like that into consideration, then you don't understand the game at all.  Hide behind stats all you want, but you can find out more by looking into those numbers and watching the player play.  Hopefully one day you will understand that.

 

 

 

 

Okay, take away his two best and his two worst and his ERA was 3.76, still more than respectable.

 

 

 

I said that.  But because a guy got injured one time doesn't make him injury prone.  It means he got injured.  Simple as that.  But to try and use his numbers while he is recovering from an injury, you are using skewed numbers.  To say he sucks because he had a 4.76 ERA in 2002 when that was based on 6 games and an injury IS assinine, whether you can see it or not.

 

 

 

It does when I can watch him throw 91-92 with my own eyes, consistently.  You act like I saw him pitch one time....

 

 

 

Hate to break it to you, but that is the pot calling the kettle black.  You think you know everything and are not open to new information.  That is not my problem.

 

And sure, I've been wrong before.  But I generally am not because I pick and choose my battles.  I generally find I am wrong before I decide to post something, but if I am wrong, I admit it. 

 

 

 

So how many times have you seen Mitch Wylie pitch??  How many times have you watched a radar gun measure his speed??  Perhaps you should hold off forming opinions on guys you have actually seen.

 

The stupid part of all of this is that I think Mitch has a so-so chance of making the big leagues and you think he has none.  We are splitting hairs, but because you refuse to believe I have actually seen the guy pitch a time or two and know that he is not a "junkballer",  you have to try to prove me wrong.  This whole conversation has been stupid and began because you can't be open to new information because you always have to be right.  Get a life!

Rex, Maybe some people don't understand that you live down there and watch the games. Outside of that, keep giving us reports on the minor leaguers. Personally, I beleive the Sox farm system is a complete mess. The talent for the majors is thin, its time to rebuild.

[The Beast]

Phil Rogers just reported that the White Sox pitcher Brian West is quitting baseball and is enrolling as a 24 year old linebacker from Louisana state.

[Rex Hudler]

Rex, Maybe some people don't understand that you live down there and watch the games. Outside of that, keep giving us reports on the minor leaguers. Personally, I beleive the Sox farm system is a complete mess. The talent for the majors is thin, its time to rebuild.

 

It is more that some people think they can decipher everything about a player by his stats (which are helpful) and and a few scouting reports (which are also helpful, yet not always accurate). Whether it is a lack of respect or always having to be right, I don't know, but it would seem to me that having seen a player many times over the course of two seasons would lend a bit of credibility.

 

quick, I don't think the Sox system is as bad as you think, but it is pretty thin at the top and the trades that were made last season didn't help. But I do think the Sox have a lot of good young talent from the past two drafts, so help should be on the way. I have not seen any of those guys, so it is hard to give specifics about any of them, however. We'll see if they can continue to improve and if reality matches the hype.

[Rex Hudler]

Phil Rogers just reported that the White Sox pitcher Brian West is quitting baseball and is enrolling as a 24 year old linebacker from Louisana state.

That was reported back in August. He has been playing at LSU all year. All anyone had to do is go to LSU's website in September to see this. Phil must be a little slow these days. LOL

[The Beast]

That was reported back in August.  He has been playing at LSU all year. All anyone had to do is go to LSU's website in September to see this.  Phil must be a little slow these days.  LOL

Yeah I'd say so, the dude put me on hold til January for our meeting.

[BrandoFan]

quick, I don't think the Sox system is as bad as you think, but it is pretty thin at the top and the trades that were made last season didn't help

 

Who cares as long as the system produces good for it's parent-club. As of this moment, there are 3-4 minor leaguers I hope can make instant impact in 2004, thus allowing the Sox to avoid overpaying for Freddy Gracia and/or Sydney Ponson, saving money to keep Maggs, Lee and Gordon.

 

If Rauch, Pacheco and Cotts succeed on the ML level (one as 5th starter with ERA under 4.50 and another 2 as relievers with ERAs under 4.00), then I would consider our farm system to be fairly successful.

 

And if Jeremy Reed gives Rowand and Harris run for their money, it'll be even better. We won't have to get Erstad or Vina, and will save even more money, possibly allowing us to get a legitimate ace starter and still remain within budget.

 

That's how my mind works. Small-market teams need super-strong farm systems if they want to compete.

 

ETA: Wylie will never amount to anything even remotely special. Some things CAN be gleamed from statistics believe it or not. It's not like he has great stuff and that it's just a matter of putting it together. He is simply NOT THAT TALENTED. Sorry, it happens sometimes.

[BrandoFan]

Phil Rogers just reported that the White Sox pitcher Brian West is quitting baseball and is enrolling as a 24 year old linebacker from Louisana state.

I think this career change is ill-advised.

 

 

He should've tried auditioning for San Francisco Ballet Academy first or maybe talk to Nick Boletieri to see if he has any openings for him. There are better options out there for young Brian.

[Rex Hudler]

I think this career change is ill-advised.

 

 

He should've tried auditioning for San Francisco Ballet Academy first or maybe talk to Nick Boletieri to see if he has any openings for him.  There are better options out there for young Brian.

Let's see....... he had an elbow injury and was facing Tommy John surgery which would have meant he would have missed all of this coming season. Obviously, his baseball career wasn't progressing. He was an All-American football player in HS from Louisiana. Getting an opportunity to play for your State school has definite appeal.

 

I don't see anything here to indicate this was a bad career move. At worst, it gets him a free college education.

[Rex Hudler]

Who cares as long as the system produces good for it's parent-club. As of this moment, there are 3-4 minor leaguers I hope can make instant impact in 2004, thus allowing the Sox to avoid overpaying for Freddy Gracia and/or Sydney Ponson, saving money to keep Maggs, Lee and Gordon. 

 

If Rauch, Pacheco and Cotts succeed on the ML level (one as 5th starter with ERA under 4.50 and another 2 as relievers with ERAs under 4.00), then I would consider our farm system to be fairly successful.

 

And if Jeremy Reed gives Rowand and Harris run for their money, it'll be even better.  We won't have to get Erstad or Vina, and will save even more money, possibly allowing us to get a legitimate ace starter and still remain within budget.

 

That's how my mind works. Small-market teams need super-strong farm systems if they want to compete.

 

ETA:  Wylie will never amount to anything even remotely special. Some things CAN be gleamed from statistics believe it or not. It's not like he has great stuff and that it's just a matter of putting it together. He is simply NOT THAT TALENTED.  Sorry, it happens sometimes.

I think you missed my point. A thin farm system can still produce, there is just less margin for error or injury. The point is, with a greater margin for error, the chance of the system helping the Major League club is greater.

 

I think you are a bit ambitious in hoping that Rauch, Cotts and Pacheco will all produce for the big club this year at the levels you mentioned. Unless of course, the season falls apart and they go with youngsters. I hope you are right, but I don't think the odds of all three giving the Sox that kind of contribution this year is very strong.

 

 

I don't understand your point in chiming in on the Wylie issue. From the very beginning, it was stated that Wylie has a very marginal chance of making the Big Leagues. So what is your point in stating the same in a manner to imply that I am wrong? Did you forget what you read??

[BrandoFan]

Did you forget what you read??

 

Exactly...huh, what are we talking about again?

[Rex Hudler]

Exactly...huh, what are we talking about again?

Obviously, nothing.

[Chisoxfn]

Phil Rogers just reported that the White Sox pitcher Brian West is quitting baseball and is enrolling as a 24 year old linebacker from Louisana state.

That happened last season, although some people thought he may come back.

[Rex Hudler]

That happened last season, although some people thought he may come back.

I believe once he found out he was facing Tommy John surgery, that was the icing on the cake. He won't be back in a baseball uniform.

[Chisoxfn]

Let's see....... he had an elbow injury and was facing Tommy John surgery which would have meant he would have missed all of this coming season.  Obviously, his baseball career wasn't progressing.  He was an All-American football player in HS from Louisiana.  Getting an opportunity to play for your State school has definite appeal.

 

I don't see anything here to indicate this was a bad career move.  At worst, it gets him a free college education.

That and he has tremendous size. He's like 6'4 and built like a house. Don't know if he could make it to the NFL, but I'd at least say he can now get a further education and do something he enjoys.

 

I think he realized with all the rehab there was still no guarantee and for all I know he had a timeline in his mind and if it didn't work out he'd go to school.

[whitesox61382]

The fact that the Sox upper minors are very thin makes me question the idea of rebuilding at this point. I would like to see the Sox make some moves to fill holes and attempt to contend for the weak Central. If the Sox fall far behind by the AS break, than I think they should pull a move similar to the Tribe a couple of years ago, and move a couple of big contract veterans and get solid prospects in return, However, last trading deadline showed that they only way that you get solid prospects is IF you pick up the remainder of the veterans contract. Take note of that JR, so we don't get stuck with some marginal prospects like Mitch Wylie . The Sox can then use the 2nd half for auditions, and decide which prospects have the potential to be everyday players and which do not.

 

The one thing that I am encouraged about is the talent at the lower minors. I do realize that most will never be in a major league stadium without paying, but the potential in the lower minors is the best that I have seen in a long time. As Rex pointed out, a lot of it has to do with solid drafts the last 2 years, especially this past draft. I go to the U of A, so I saw Anderson play on a daily basis, however they doesn't make me a pro-scout or an expert on him, although if I were Rex that would make me an expert on him who knows more then the scouts. Sorry, I had to take that cheap shot. I really think Anderson has a chance to be a very good CF if he can stay healthy. The only concern that I have is that his plate disipline was suspect at times. Other then that he showed all 5 tools and has a good potential. I really think that Sweeney has a chance to be the best of the bunch, based on what I read. Valido put together a great 1st year and gives the Sox a TRUE middle infield prospect. Nanita come out of nowhere to put together some great numbers. King even had some solid numbers. The one thing lacking was quality pitching from this years past draft. The Sox also got good years from Bounds, Young, McCarthy, Castro, Lopez, Tisch among others. Next year will be a big year for some of these guys as they attempt to make the jump from rookie ball to A ball, which IMO is the biggest jump. You generally see quite a few good prospects fail at that level, conversely you see which prospects are better then the rest. It will be fun to watch all of this talent in the lower minors develop and hopefully help bring the Sox back in a couple of years.

 

I have a question, what happened to Rodriguez, the big, lefty, drafted last year out of high school, who has tons of potential, and put together a solid year last year? Was he hurt? Any info would be nice, because it appears that his potential is unlimited. Reports say that he was consistantly in the low-90's last year with good control, and that he was only starting to tap his potential.

[Rex Hudler]

The fact that the Sox upper minors are very thin makes me question the idea of rebuilding at this point.

 

Unless I mis-interpreted quickman's post, I think he ment time to rebuild the farm system, not rebuild the Sox. I think we would all agree that rebuilding the farm system is a good idea and that we don't have the depth to go with another "youth movement" in the Bigs.

 

however they doesn't make me a pro-scout or an expert on him, although if I were Rex that would make me an expert on him who knows more then the scouts.

 

I have no problem with the cheap shot. I can take it. I am no expert by any means..... nor are scouts. That is what makes scouting such an inexact science and why stats have become more prevalent in evaluating talent. But I do know how to read a radar gun.

 

 

I have a question, what happened to Rodriguez, the big, lefty, drafted last year out of high school

 

I believe you are referring to Ryan Rodriguez? If I am thinking about the right player, he was injured early in the year and wasn't healthy until about halfway through the short season. Instead of throwing him in there with pitch counts, I believe the Sox chose to keep him in Arizona throwing in rehab games and then sent him to Instructional League in the fall. Doing this saved them a contract year or something. I can't remember the exact explanation.

 

Another strong pitcher that missed this whole season was Daniel Haigwood, the LH from Arkansas that had a huge debut in 2002. He tore his ACL, I believe so his injury was not pitching/arm related.

[Chisoxfn]

Haigwood and Rodriguez are both studs. I hope the two of them can get healthy and find themselves back on the fast track. With Haigwood you are right, it was something non throwing related.

[winninguglyin83]

i'm still optimistic Ginter can contribute somehow.

 

He's got a solid arm and has pitched well in streaks at Birmingham and Charlotte.

 

He's never seemed to pitch with much confidence in the big leagues. Seems afraid to throw the ball over the plate.

 

and Manuel lost confidence in him quickly.

 

this is his last chance.

 

hope he takes advantage.

[YASNY]

I'm not sold on Rauch, healthy or not.

Wishful thinking

[MnSoxFan]

Rex, having fun are ya?

[Rex Hudler]

Rex, having fun are ya?

Fun, is that what you call it?