Why everyone so high on

[Whitewashed in '05]

Rauch is probably the closest to get a chance in the majors than most of our other pitchers in the minors. Ginter would be another but he hasn't proved he could handle it but then again pitchers like Stewart, Rauch, and Cotts are not in the majors because they couldn't handle it so Ginter is also close.

 

Rauch had a good 2nd half last season and ended up with pretty good stats. I think he has a good shot at the $5 spot in the rotation next season thats is if KW hasn't gave the spot to Shoey already. If Rauch does good in spring training I think he could beat Shoey to it if it was just between them two. I think Rauch can do it because he had 2 real good starts in 02 vs Oak and Min I think it was and if he can beat Min he has a real good chance.

 

Ginter also has a good chance but he has to do real good in spring training. If he does end up in our bullpen I hope he doesn't fall apart.

 

I think Stewart will even get a chance but then again he might not because of his season long injury after that line drive in Baltimore, I hope he gets back to normal he has potential.

[BrandoFan]

I think you are a bit ambitious in hoping that Rauch, Cotts and Pacheco will all produce for the big club this year at the levels you mentioned

 

Wow, is sub-4.50 ERA too much to ask these days from a starter who was as hyped as Rauch?

 

Is sub-4.00 ERA too much to ask of Cotts and Pacheco, two guys who dominated AA? If much less hyped Howry, Wunsht, Barcelo and Bradford could do it on their first try, why not Neil and Eminemcio?

 

I guess my standards are too lofty. I was just hoping we could replace White's 6.50, Wright's 6.00 and Koch's 5.75 ERA's, and 7-10 more games just because of that alone.

[Rex Hudler]

Wow, is sub-4.50 ERA too much to ask these days from a starter who was as hyped as Rauch?

 

Is sub-4.00 ERA too much to ask of Cotts and Pacheco, two guys who dominated AA? If much less hyped Howry, Wunsht, Barcelo and Bradford could do it on their first try, why not Neil and Eminemcio?

 

I guess my standards are too lofty.  I was just hoping we could replace White's 6.50, Wright's 6.00 and Koch's 5.75 ERA's, and 7-10 more games just because of that alone.

Its not that any one of those expectations are unreasonable. I just think that all three of them meeting them in what is essentially their rookie year is asking a lot. Once again, I hope you are right. But there are often growing pains with young pitchers.

 

Plus, I am not sold on Jon Rauch. I think he was hyped too much because of one great year (and great it was).

[vettemaster]

Maybe someone could help me undersand why several people are so down on Jon Rauch? I have seen this monster-man pitch many times and have seen both good and bad games, but there is one thing for certain Rauch is a fierce competitor. This kid will be ready when spring training starts in 2004.

Lets take a look at this past year for Rauch. I was there when he got lit-up in Toledo and I was also there when the team asked him to pitch at 1:30 AM when they just got through the longest game on record. He had a 3 hitter and a complete game to boot, they won both games of the double header and the second game Rauch pitched ended at 3:45 AM. One thing I noticed at this second game is that there were only 50 fans left in the stands, however the seven scouts watched and recorded every pitch Rauch made that morning.

Let me ask another question. What could have been the results if mgt would have called up Rauch in August/Sept?? He won his last 5 games and had a era at 2.10 for that span of time. He was hitting 92-93 and his curve ball was on the money. He would have pitched several times against Minn, and who knows what the outcome would have been. Rauch started approx 24 games and lost only ONE!!

I know everyone has there favorite players and as you can tell one of them for me is Jon Rauch. Maybe the best thing that the WHITESOX did was not calling up Rauch in August/Sept because it really got him mad....Rauch has a lot to prove, so get ready everyone and lets watch this BIG MAN rock and roll in 2004.

GO SOX AND JON RAUCH!!

[Rex Hudler]

In my mind, Rauch's stuff will be exposed once hitter adjust to his height..... not crazy about his mental makeup either.

[whitesoxfan99]

In my mind, Rauch's stuff will be exposed once hitter adjust to his height.....  not crazy about his mental makeup either.

Without the 95+ fastball he used to have I think you may be right. I just remember watching him pitch against Cuba in the Olympics and thinking he was going to be a stud.

[Rex Hudler]

Without the 95+ fastball he used to have I think you may be right.  I just remember watching him pitch against Cuba in the Olympics and thinking he was going to be a stud.

I never saw 95.... at least not consistently. He was more of a 90-92 guy.

[whitesoxfan99]

I never saw 95....    at least not consistently.  He was more of a 90-92 guy.

Thats what I saw when he pitched in the Olympics. Thats the only time I saw him pitch when he was healthy. Put even having the ability to pop one in there at 95+ keeps hitters off balance. But I'm sure you have seen him a lot of times so I'll trust you that he only hit 90-92 consistently.

[Rex Hudler]

Thats what I saw when he pitched in the Olympics.  Thats the only time I saw him pitch when he was healthy.  Put even having the ability to pop one in there at 95+ keeps hitters off balance.  But I'm sure you have seen him a lot of times so I'll trust you that he only hit 90-92 consistently.

When he was in Birmingham that is where he was..... also, keep in mind that TV readings tend to be higher

[BrandoFan]

Pre-injury Rauch I saw threw 91-93, reaching 94-05 range only when needed. Kinda like Kip Wells before he moved to Pittsburgh. Which is fine since Zito and Moyer live in mid-80's, and they don't have the luxury of being closer to the plate because of 6'11 height and long arms, mind you.

 

He also had a solid slider, promising change, a very good 12-6 curveball and a good fastball. Factor in his height, both angle- and distance-wise, and he was going to be a STUD from what I saw given his pretty good control.

 

If he ever gets healthy (labrums injuries are almost impossible to come back fully from), he'll be good.

 

4.50 ERA is right around league average. If he can't deliver that, he might as well stay in AAA.

[vettemaster]

The game that got Rauch to get chosen for the Olympic team was in Birmingham and he threw a compete game 2 hit shut out with 14 K's. He was hitting 93-94 in that game in the ninth inning. Last year Rauch was hitting 94 in the game against Minn in Sept, which by the way he had a 1 hitter thru 5 innings and only gave up 1 run in 7 innings and I am sure he will at 94-96 when spring time rolls around.

Some one was questioning Rauch's mental makeup...whats with that??? I have never seen Rauch lose his composure on the mound. He is not afraid to pitch inside and is not intiminated by ANYONE. I am really looking forward to watching Rauch take the 4-5th spot in the rotation in 2004.

GO SOX, GO JON RAUCH

[BrandoFan]

Some one was questioning Rauch's mental makeup...whats with that??? I have never seen Rauch lose his composure on the mound

 

Except that he DID- in almost every start with the White Sox he was sweating Borowski and his control was bloody AWFUL.

[Chisoxfn]

The key with Rauch is getting the fastball to the point where hitters have to think about it sneaking up on them. He can do this by getting his slider back where it used to be. He just started throwing it again and its a top pitch, just like his curve. Mix that with his developing change and if he's truly got his velocity back into the low 90's he could do it. His control has been very solid so that is a bright spot. I think he's got a shot.

[Chisoxfn]

Except that he DID-  in almost every start with the White Sox he was sweating Borowski and his control was bloody AWFUL.

He did do good the last two starts two seasons ago or something like that. I remember him pitching very good against Minnesota until the bottom of the 5th or 6th when he left a pitch up and got it creamed. Despite that he flashed a pretty nasty curve, the problem is until they have to worry about the slider as another out pitch and the fastball, the hitters can lay off his curve and then swing at his heater, which is mediocre at this point...although I heard in August it started improving.

 

When I was in Charlotte, I was told his velocity and stuff were nothing like they were pre-injury. But they did say he had improved in a lot of areas and that he was finally getting healthy. So I don't think the Sox saw the "healthy, 100%" Jon Rauch last year. Whether he will ever be 100% or not who knows, but maybe he finally reached that point late late last season.

[The Beast]

Vettemaster + El Caballo, welcome to Soxtalk, enjoy your stay.

[YASNY]

I don't know if Jon Rauch can cut it or not. But, still, after his rehab season this past year, he deserves a shot at it before we give up on him.

[winninguglyin83]

I think Rauch will be a solid addition to our starting staff this year.

 

he has excellent control. Even when Baseball America named him Minor League Player of the Year, it wasn't velocity that they touted. It was command and the ability to throw three or four pitches for strikes. That's his big edge over Danny Wright, who not only walks too many but is always behind in the count.

 

Rauch is entering his third season since shoulder surgery so he should be completely healthy. He should be angry because the sox did not promote him. he should be worried because he has to know now is the time to step forward. Motivation and focus should not be a problem.

 

And he should be excited because he's working with a clean slate provided by a new manager.

 

Let's face it: With the Sox payroll situation, we're going to need at least a couple of the following guys to step forward -- Rauch, Ginter, Sanders, Stewart, Munoz, Cotts, Pacheco, Bajernu, Adkins, Bullinger or Purvis.

[Rex Hudler]

He did do good the last two starts two seasons ago or something like that.  I remember him pitching very good against Minnesota until the bottom of the 5th or 6th when he left a pitch up and got it creamed.  Despite that he flashed a pretty nasty curve, the problem is until they have to worry about the slider as another out pitch and the fastball, the hitters can lay off his curve and then swing at his heater, which is mediocre at this point...although I heard in August it started improving. 

 

When I was in Charlotte, I was told his velocity and stuff were nothing like they were pre-injury.  But they did say he had improved in a lot of areas and that he was finally getting healthy.  So I don't think the Sox saw the "healthy, 100%" Jon Rauch last year.  Whether he will ever be 100% or not who knows, but maybe he finally reached that point late late last season.

Catch is, with shoulder surgery, a full recovery is not always in the cards. Tommy John surgery is much more predictable in terms of recovery than shoulder surgery.

 

Some one was questioning Rauch's mental makeup...whats with that???

 

I will be very broad here and not talk about Rauch specifically. There are many things that fans do not know about players. Some are cocky, some are humble. Some have competitive fire, others do not. Some do drugs. Some drink excessively. Some work hard. Some follow the conditioning programs, some do not. Some think they can turn it on at game time and cruise the rest of the time. Others work their asses off to try and learn, get better. Some work hard in rehab after an injury. Others go through the motions. Some are immature. Some are more worried about getting laid than focusing during the game. Some are just dumb when it comes to how to play the game and can't think for themselves.

 

You have to understand that players are humans and they react differently and think differently just like you would find if you took any group of 25 random males. Add to the fact that most of them have always been the best at what they do and have generally been coddled. Most are always told how great they are by the people around them. People handle success and failure differently, some better than others. They are not robots. So there are many ways that a player's "makeup" can affect his on-field performance.

 

I am not going to get into Rauch specifically, because it has been 3 years since I have seen him pitch or been around him. People can change. They can grow up. I do know that I am not the only person I have ever heard questioning whether he will ever make it, or at least make it with the kind of success he seemed destined for.

 

All that said, I hope he does make it and is very successful.

 

I'll leave it at that.

[BrandoFan]

Rauch is entering his third season since shoulder surgery so he should be completely healthy

 

When was the last time a power-pitcher, which he was before injury both in terms of velocity and movement, totally regained the old range of motion and was able to do so without pain after a torn labrum?

 

I am NOT worried that his fastball is no longer hitting 94-95. With his height, a 91-93 heater IS 94-95 to the hitter because of his height and arms. Plenty of pitchers made a living with low-90's fastballs, inluding Hudson, Mulder, E-Lo and now Pedro.

 

I AM however worried about:

 

-Rauch being afraid of getting injured again, especially after the 2003 flare-up and as such being too self-conscious and not trying his best.

 

-His curve and slider losing their velocity and break. Without a dominant fastball, he'll have rely on them for survival.

[The Beast]

Player W L ERA G CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB SO

Jon Rauch 7 1 4.11 24 1 0 0 124.2 121 60 57 16 35 94

Just thought I'd bring his stats into the equation

[MnSoxFan]

Rauch was NEVER considered a power pitcher, not even in his one great season. None of the scouting reports out of college even listed him as a power pitcher.

[Rex Hudler]

Rauch was NEVER considered a power pitcher, not even in his one great season. None of the scouting reports out of college even listed him as a power pitcher.

I agree MSF. I didn't say anything because I didn't want to get into a radar gun war again.

[BrandoFan]

I agree MSF.  I didn't say anything because I didn't want to get into a radar gun war again.  

I agree MSF.  I didn't say anything because I didn't want to get into a radar gun war again.  

 

Bulls***!

 

At the very LEAST he was 92-93 pre-injury, and when I saw him pitch in early 2001, probably already injured, he reached on 94-95 on quite a few pitches. It's not crazy to suggest he was 92-95 at his best in 2000.

 

There is a difference between a low-90s pitcher who reaches mid-90s only when needed (Rauch pre-injury) and a true mid-90's pitcher (Prior, Zambrano). Both types, however, are POWER pitchers because of their PLUS-fastball....not that I gave one s*** about semantics, call him a former-semi-power pitcher if you wish. (And btw many scouting reports from 3 years ago DO state '92-94' in them.)

 

Again, if Rauch was "only" topping out at 93-94 back in 2000, considering WHERE he releases the ball compared to an average-height (say 6'1'') pitcher, to the hitter it looked FASTER....get it?

 

I also remembering stating somewhere that he needs his secondary pitches to succeed in the absense of an explosive heater. So this whole arguement is moot.

 

What isn't moot is where he wil ever regain the range of motion, and by extension, his old velocity and break.

 

So will he?

[Rex Hudler]

Brando, however you want to slice it, Rauch was never really a power pitcher, in the classic sense. He was never really overpowering.

 

His advantage was his height and his command. Although his command in the strikezone wasn't perfect (whose is?), he had the ability to throw strikes. He coudl run it up to 93-94 on occasion, but that is not where he was most of the time.

 

I agree with you that he may never get back to his old form because of his injury, but whether he does or doesn't, I don't think you will find him to be "dominating". He can very good, but in my mind I think that will be a stretch. I hope he proves me wrong. I have nothing against the guy, but I do think that he was overhyped somewhat.

[BrandoFan]

Brando, however you want to slice it, Rauch was never really a power pitcher, in the classic sense. He was never really overpowering.

 

What was he then, a finesse guy?

 

His advantage was his height and his command

.

 

Ever try to hit a 92-95 fastball coming from a 6'11 pitcher? What if that pitcher also could get you out on an good slider and curve....It takes less to "dominate" overswinging batters these days. Just ask Barry Zito or Mike Mussina.

 

Although his command in the strikezone wasn't perfect (whose is?), he had the ability to throw strikes.

 

....by far the most important pitching requirement .

 

He coudl run it up to 93-94 on occasion, but that is not where he was most of the time.

 

Tho he was probably alreasy injured, Rauch hardly threw a fastball under 92 when I saw him March-April-May 2001. Yes, he might have only reached 95 one or twice a game if that, but he was consistently in 92-94 range....and his command was HORRID, 2-0/3-1 on every batter. The opposite of what you described basically, lol.

 

I agree with you that he may never get back to his old form because of his injury, but whether he does or doesn't, I don't think you will find him to be "dominating". He can very good, but in my mind I think that will be a stretch. I hope he proves me wrong.

 

Dominant is ERA under 2.75

 

All I am asking in 2004 is ERA in 4.25-4.50 range

 

I have nothing against the guy, but I do think that he was overhyped somewhat.

 

But that's the thing, OTHER teams scouts were raving about him. I just hope he has his old slider and curve back, and throws a serviceable change. If he does that, even a 90-91 mph fastball will be more than enough.