Downfall of the Twins!

[SoxFan1]

Cold it be? Hawkins and Guardado are likely leaving, Pierzkjasdghfsdlgjhasdgjlafy has been traded, and they have problems with cash Cuz Milton and Bradke are taking up like 17 million this year. Looks like the Royals got the division this year.

[BrandoFan]

The whole Twins season is riding on the severity of Santana's injury and, to lesser extent, whether they can re-sign Stewart.

 

If they fail to do one, let alone both, they'll win 75-77 games in 2004 at the most.

[Chisoxfn]

If the Twins can't unload Milton and Radke rather quickly, then I think the Twins will be in trouble. A team that loses AJ, Hawkins, Guardado, and Stewart will have some problems. At the same time they have quite a few in house replacements. They got their stud first base prospect that will dh with Mient and they have quite a few outfield prospects and well LeCroy and Mauer at catcher.

 

The big thing is how will their stud closer prospect do (Read about him last year when I was on my road trip in the minors) and everyone said he's an absolute stud. Couldn't tell ya his name though, but he was in AA or AAA and absolutely lighting it up.

[Chisoxfn]

Minny has a pretty solid farm, correct?

They have a ton of guys right on the cusp ready to come up to the majors. The big question is whether they can get enough pitching and production from the guys that stay to hold up when a rook or two struggle during the adjustment period. If any team could do it, it would be the Twins cause they are definately doing something right with their scouting and coaching in the minors.

[BrandoFan]

The big thing is how will their stud closer prospect do (Read about him last year when I was on my road trip in the minors) and everyone said he's an absolute stud. Couldn't tell ya his name though, but he was in AA or AAA and absolutely lighting it up

 

If you're talking about Bonser (sp?) , you have nothing to worry about. He won't be in the majors in 2004.

 

You don't dominate major league hitters by throwing 93-94 and a nothing-special breaking ball.

 

 

He was like ranked 7th or something in the Giant farm system. Far from Miark Prior.

[Chisoxfn]

If you're talking about Bonser (sp?) , you have nothing to worry about.  He won't be in the majors in 2004.

 

You don't dominate major league hitters by throwing 93-94 and a nothing-special breaking ball.

 

 

He was like ranked 7th or something in the Giant farm system.  Far from Miark Prior.

Bosner is gonna be good, but no I'm talking about someone in the Twins system last year. He had freaking unbelievable stats and the stuff to match.

[Chisoxfn]

Jesse Crain is who I'm talking about.

 

Last season in AA: 1-1, .069 ERA, 22 G, 39 IP, 13 H, 10 BB, 56 K

Last season in AAA: 3-1, 3.12 ERA, 23 G, 26 IP, 24 H, 10 BB, 33 K

 

If I recall he really struggled like his firs 5 or 6 outings in AAA and then he all of a sudden went on a terror once again. He's 22 years old.

[BrandoFan]

They have a ton of guys right on the cusp ready to come up to the majors

 

And most of them will fail.

 

Hey, we'll be around to witness Justin Marneu strike out 250 times next season.

 

Last season in AA: 1-1, .069 ERA, 22 G, 39 IP, 13 H, 10 BB, 56 K

 

Good lord.

 

Last season in AAA: 3-1, 3.12 ERA, 23 G, 26 IP, 24 H, 10 BB, 33

 

That's more like it. Bring him on.

[Chisoxfn]

The thing is they did the splits on like his last 15 games in AAA and they were like identical to the AA stats. Only thing is I don't know how to do splits on minor league players.

 

As far as Morneua, the guys gonna be a freaking stud...but your right he could be Jim Thome without the Thome like numbers at first.

[BrandoFan]

The thing is they did the splits on like his last 15 games in AAA and they were like identical to the AA stats. Only thing is I don't know how to do splits on minor league players.

 

For every Mark Prior, there are 10 Jesse Crains...and 100 Andy Siscos.

 

As far as Morneua, the guys gonna be a freaking stud...but your right he could be Jim Thome without the Thome like numbers at first.

 

To hear Twin fans speak of it, Restovich-Cuddayer-Mornea are A-Rod-Palmeiro-1-Gone.

 

 

They'll be lucky to be Stairs-Jaha-Palmer.

 

 

I like Mauer. Might be a good player some day.

[CubsSuck1]

Maurer gonna start at C for them this year? He might be a stud. Hopefully this inspires KW to make a few moves.

[Chisoxfn]

Well I'm sure that you also didn't think that people like Webb and Dontrell could come up and dominate too. Sure many fail, but I've seen the Twins too many times the past few years pull guys up and they just come up and start suceeding right out of the gate (Not in Webb or Dontrell fashion) but they have been helpful.

[greasywheels121]

Thank God we're in the AL central of all places .....It makes the dreaded rebuilding stage a little easier to come out of; though I wish we could avoid it at all costs LOL. But all the moves the Twins are being forced to make don't bother me one bit.

It's funny how the Twins have the same problems though. From what I hear the Twins owner could buy George Steinbrenner x3, but then the Twins are at the bottom of the payroll in MLB. It's interesting.

[BrandoFan]

Well I'm sure that you also didn't think that people like Webb and Dontrell could come up and dominate too.

 

No, I didn't.

 

When Dontrell Willis posts a 4.50 ERA in 2004 in a great pitcher's park and people start laying off Webb's novelty sinker like they did Zambrano in the end, I will not be among those surpised.

Sure many fail,

 

Most fail.

 

but I've seen the Twins too many times the past few years pull guys up and they just come up and start suceeding right out of the gate (Not in Webb or Dontrell fashion) but they have been helpful.

 

Outside of Pirzinki whose production was indeed pretty good for a cacther, and the now-injured Santana, they don't have any exceptional players, and have only been winning this divsion in 2002-2003 because Sox were so will-less and dumb. Even Hawkins sucked donkey balls for his first 3-4 years in the majors.

 

Crain might be a sub-4.00 ERA pitcher in 2005. Or he may not be.

[whitesox61382]

Minnesota is still going to be very good. I really think that Mauer will be up by the AS break if he doesn't make the team out of ST. I think he is the type of guy that can come into the majors and is good from day one. This guy has some serious skills, and I could see him hitting .260-.270/8-10/40-50 good BB to SO ratio as a rookie. Losing Pierzynski hurts(he is one of the most underrated catchers in the game), but it isn't as drastic as most people are making it out to be. Their offense should be good. They have a lot of solid prospects ready to break out and put together solid years. The question is going to be their pitching. The good news for the Sox is that they will lose Reed and Rogers, and possible either Milton or Radke, which means they will need some cheap replacements and minor leaguers to step up. The bad news is that none of those guys were very good(only 1 Twins starter with 20+ starts had an ERA below 4.49) so the Twins starting pitching can't get much worse. The bullpen won't be quite as good, although I could see them resigning either Guardado or Hawkins, and the addition of Nathan will help easy the lose. Another thing that people are forgetting is the other prospect that Minnesota got. Everyone mentions Bonser, but Francisco Liriano is a lefty with great upside. He was actually ranked higher then Bonser by BA. The only major question mark about him is his stamina and health. The Giants were very cautious with him because of his past injury problems, but if this guy stays healthy look out. Reports say that he can get up to the mid-90's with good control. This trade has a chance to be great for the Twins in the long-run IF Mauer lives up to his billing and EITHER Bonser OR Liriano develop into a front of the rotation starter. It was a good trade for both teams, and I am glad to see Pierzynski out of the AL.

[BrandoFan]

Minnesota is still going to be very good

 

See, that's funny because they were never "very good" to begin with. Not in 2002. Certainly not in 2001 or 2003.

 

If they played in ALW or ALE or NLE or even NLW, they'd be lucky to win 83-85 games a year. Wouldn't even SNIFF playoffs.

 

In 2004, they'll be weaker still and will have to rely on Mauer and a rookie pitcher just to be respectable.

 

It's a testament to gigantic Sox failure (esp in the clutch) that Twins have had our number in the manner in which they did more so than anything.

[Chisoxfn]

So Liriano was the PTBNL? I didn't read that thats who it was. Man, they did excellent. Liarano has some serious potential, but health is a risk and its one of the more likely reasons a player in the minors pans out.

[whitesox61382]

See, that's funny because they were never "very good" to begin with.  Not in 2002. Certainly not in 2001 or 2003. 

 

If they played in ALW or ALE or NLE or even NLW, they'd be lucky to win 83-85 games a year.  Wouldn't even SNIFF playoffs. 

 

In 2004, they'll be weaker still and will have to rely on Mauer and a rookie pitcher just to be respectable.

 

It's a testament to gigantic Sox failure (esp in the clutch)  that Twins have had our number in the manner in which they did more so than anything.

Open your eyes to reality, take away your bias, and give the Twins some credit. You need more then smoke and mirrors to win 90+ games the past 2 years. I don't care what division you play in, when you win 90+ games the last 2 years you are a very good team, whether you want to admit it or not.

[whitesox61382]

Just for the record Brando, the Twins were 17-15 against the AL East and 20-16 against the AL West, so your theory that if they were in the AL East or AL west and be lucky to finish above .500 is BS in which you let your bias towards the Twins affect your better judgement. The Twins are a very good team and the stats support that theory, so give them some credit and quit making lame excuses.

[BrandoFan]

Open your eyes to reality, take away your bias

 

Me biased? Girlfriend, no you d'iint.....You must not have read most of my posts in which I pick apart almost everything White Sox, from attendance to Magglio Orgonez to WhiteSoxInteractive. Pulease.

 

 

and give the Twins some credit You need more then smoke and mirrors to win 90+ games the past 2 years.

.

 

For what, winning a bumch of games against hapless, choke-happy, overswingig Sox? Pathetic Indians? Or oh-so-super-pathetic Tigers?

 

WAKE THE f*** UP yourself!

 

 

I don't care what division you play in, when you win 90+ games the last 2 years you are a very good team, whether you want to admit it or not.

 

I know, I was on your side in that Ponson debate, but if you don't think 2003 Twins would have finished 5th in NLE and 4th both ALE and ALW, you're simply not looking at things intelligently.

 

Hell, until they got Stewart, Twins were FIVE games under .500 in the super-pathetic ALC the ASB in 2003

[KipWellsFan]

So Liriano was the PTBNL?  I didn't read that thats who it was.  Man, they did excellent.  Liarano has some serious potential, but health is a risk and its one of the more likely reasons a player in the minors pans out.

I thought I read that the Twins had to give up a PTBNL as well.

[whitesox61382]

Me biased? Girlfriend, no you d'iint.....You must not have read most of my posts in which I pick apart almost everything White Sox, from attendance to Magglio Orgonez to WhiteSoxInteractive. Pulease.

 

 

.

 

For what, winning a bumch of games against hapless, choke-happy, overswingig Sox? Pathetic Indians?  Or oh-so-super-pathetic  Tigers?

 

WAKE THE f*** UP yourself!

 

 

 

 

I know, I was on your side in that Ponson debate, but if you don't think 2003 Twins would have finished 5th in NLE and 4th both ALE and ALW, you're simply not looking at things intelligently. 

 

Hell, until they got Stewart, Twins were FIVE games under .500 in the super-pathetic ALC the ASB in 2003

Please refer to my previous post in which the Twins have an above .500 record against BOTH the AL East and AL West, and I will then wait for your reply with hard stats arguing against you.

 

"You must not have read most of my posts in which I pick apart almost everything White Sox, from attendance to Magglio Orgonez to WhiteSoxInteractive. Pulease."

 

Maybe you aren't that bias towards the Sox, but that doesn't mean you don't have a negative bias towards the Twins.

 

"but if you don't think 2003 Twins would have finished 5th in NLE and 4th both ALE and ALW, you're simply not looking at things intelligently."

 

Looking at the stats is about the most intelligent way to look at things in this case. Please refer to the Twins record against the AL East and AL West. Thanks and have a nice day.

[DonkeyKongerko]

How bad will the AL Central be next year?

[whitesox61382]

I thought I read that the Twins had to give up a PTBNL as well.

Liriano was the PTBN for the Twins, however I do believe that the Twins have a choice. They can either give San Francisco cash or a PTBN to complete the deal.

[BrandoFan]

Just for the record Brando, the Twins were 17-15 against the AL East and 20-16 against the AL West

 

....playing 7 games against, say, the Yankees and Red Sox is QUITE different from playing 19 games against each. Considering how much trouble their rotaton was in for most of the season, it would have fallen apart if had to face Toronto, Boston and NY offense 57 times, with hardly a breather.

 

Had Twins fallen 5 games under .500 at the BREAK (liek they did in ALC), playing in ALW, ALE, NLE, they would have beenat least 20 games behind and never would have even dreamed of getting Stewart because there would be no point losing Kielty and finishing 3rd instead of 4th. And so on....In your world variables are set and are uniform; in reality, they're not.

 

But hey, if you choose to believe Twins would've finished ahead of Yankees, Red Sox, Braves, As, Mariners, Phillies, Marlins, go ahead.

 

Me? Considering they had great difficulty with the Sox up until late September, I doubt they would've hung with Expos, Blue Jays and healthy Angels, small-sample head to head matches notwithstanding.

 

Hard stats? When they say stats lie (ie can easily be misinterpreted), Twins being a playoffs team coming out of a NON-Central division s EXACTLY what they mean.

 

By the same token, Loaiza would have been just as dominannt pitching the whole year against Toronto, NY and Boston offensive jaggernauts just because he succeeded in his starts against them in 2003....In reality, his ERA would have been half a point to a point higher most likely. RH rightfully deferved Cy Young.