greasywheels121 Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 When I first got word of the White Sox putting Mags on the market, I was blown away. Just a couple weeks ater being on a White Sox high after bringing back Ozzie and thinking of the possibilities of the 2004 season, we find out that we're going to trade away what could be our next big franchise player. I found it to be a real stab in the back from JR. I'm so tired of his tight wadding of money etc. He complains that he will not spend money on players etc., until people start coming to the games. We were one game short of breaking 2 million in attendance this year. That's really not too bad in my eyes. Does he really expect we'd come anywhere close to that mark in attendance if our starting lineup consists of (nothing against these guys) but Miles, Harris, Borchard, and Wright? It just seems we're starting one of our infamous rebuilding stages, once again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 First off welcome aboard. Nothing upsets me more then not seeing the Sox able to go out and give someone like Castillo enough money to the point that the Sox could have a great leadoff hitter for years to come, but with a stellar pitching staff, which is what at least rumors appear that the Sox are looking for, then I'd be very happy. As far as Maggs goes, I like him a lot, but if the reports are true and he's demanding 15 mill, then I don't blame the Sox to look to move him, especially if the Yanks, Dodgers, Angels, Orioles or anyone else offer a sweet sweet package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 When I first got word of the White Sox putting Mags on the market, I was blown away. Just a couple weeks ater being on a White Sox high after bringing back Ozzie and thinking of the possibilities of the 2004 season, we find out that we're going to trade away what could be our next big franchise player. I found it to be a real stab in the back from JR. I'm so tired of his tight wadding of money etc. He complains that he will not spend money on players etc., until people start coming to the games. We were one game short of breaking 2 million in attendance this year. That's really not too bad in my eyes. Does he really expect we'd come anywhere close to that mark in attendance if our starting lineup consists of (nothing against these guys) but Miles, Harris, Borchard, and Wright? It just seems we're starting one of our infamous rebuilding stages, once again. Yeah, you're right....... no reason to support your team if they suck. Just go when they win..... Isn't that what they call a bandwagon fan?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan99 Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 When I first got word of the White Sox putting Mags on the market, I was blown away. Just a couple weeks ater being on a White Sox high after bringing back Ozzie and thinking of the possibilities of the 2004 season, we find out that we're going to trade away what could be our next big franchise player. I found it to be a real stab in the back from JR. I'm so tired of his tight wadding of money etc. He complains that he will not spend money on players etc., until people start coming to the games. We were one game short of breaking 2 million in attendance this year. That's really not too bad in my eyes. Does he really expect we'd come anywhere close to that mark in attendance if our starting lineup consists of (nothing against these guys) but Miles, Harris, Borchard, and Wright? It just seems we're starting one of our infamous rebuilding stages, once again. That would be common sense but thats not the way JR thinks. Any business that puts an inferior product on the market doesn't see high profits. Why would this be any difference in the arena of sports. If they want the fans to come out put a good product on the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 At this point you could build a floating ballpark near Navy P, assemble a 100-win team and give away tickets on Mondays and Sox STILL won't draw 3 Mill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 Disagree...if the Sox can put together a run like the Indians or even the Twins (3 years) then you would see the Sox pushing at 2.5-3 mill. Its been proven that the Sox have a fan base, it just hates JR and is very stubborn that they won't support them until JR makes an effort. To me last season was an effort, although it would of been nice if the Sox picked up a bit of the payroll in regards to Everett and Alomar so we could of kept Ring and Rupe (WHo I happen to like a lot; anyone know how he did with the Rangers)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasywheels121 Posted November 15, 2003 Author Share Posted November 15, 2003 Thanks guys.....LOL, in no way am I a bandwagon fan, I've followed the team for as long as I've known baseball, but 1993 and 2000 are the only years since I've been on the White Sox ship that could have garnered some bandwagon fans. I do like the rumors I hear about us getting pitching; pitching is definitely essential in winning a championship, let alone the division. However, we need to make sure that we still have some big bats in the lineup. I mean look at the Diamondbacks and Dodgers of last year. They both had awesome pitching staffs, but they had no offense to speak of. Speaking of the Dodgers and Diamondbacks, I've heard the Odalis rumors. Are there any rumors of us going after a guy like Miguel Batista of the Diamondbacks, he seems to have good numbers and he'd definitely come cheaper than some of the other guys on the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 I think in regards to the Dodgers was that they just had one of the worse fundemental offenses in baseball. It was like the Sox offense fundementally but lacked all the pop we had. If the Sox still have Thomas and at least one of Lee/Maggs then they will be alright, especially if they can land someone like Soriano or Nick Johnson and then add one or two veteran free agent bats (Nothing expensive). As far as pitching I'd like Perez and Escobar. That would be sweet. I still wonder how the Sox could get Perez for Konerko...someone else has to be involved in that deal, the question is who. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 Disagree...if the Sox can put together a run like the Indians or even the Twins (3 years) then you would see the Sox pushing at 2.5-3 mill Sox have NEVER drawn 3 mill in their history. Furthermore, Its been proven that the Sox have a fan base they didn't even have TOP 5 major league attendance in the majestic 1983, and all of the solid attendance in 1991-93 can be solely attributed to casual fans going to a new stadium it just hates JR and is very stubborn that they won't support them until JR makes an effort. I have a philosophical question: when a person who DOESN'T EXIST hates another person, does that count as hate? To me last season was an effort, although it would of been nice if the Sox picked up a bit of the payroll in regards to Everett and Alomar so we could of kept Ring and Rupe (WHo I happen to like a lot; anyone know how he did with the Rangers)? Last season's attendance was 1.9 mill. In 2000, it was 1.9 mill EVEN with all the half-price days. Any pattern emerging? I am with JR on this one: why take a 10-20 Mill loss if the team can't win in the PATHETIC ALC. Most posters on this board would leave their place of work if they were offered 1 or 2 dollars per hour more some place else....And here we are throwing tens of millions of other people's dough around like it's peanuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 When do you guys think the first deal, if any, will come for the Sox, I think early December stuff might start to go down, and I think once the first deal goes down, alot will follow quickly after. I think it happens sooner then that. I think KW wants to get some financial flexibility pretty quick so he can get one FA starter that he likes and pick up one via a trade. Then the Sox will mainly be active on the trade market trying to move whoever is remaining and then late in the FA they will probably sign 3-4 vets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 Here are Rupe's stats with Clinton, a low A team in the Midwest League... W- L- S ERA GP IP H AB AVG TBF R ER HR BB SO WP BK TOTALS 4- 1- 0 3.90 6 27.2 29 109 .266 122 14 12 1 7 23 2 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 Thanks guys.....LOL, in no way am I a bandwagon fan, I've followed the team for as long as I've known baseball, but 1993 and 2000 are the only years since I've been on the White Sox ship that could have garnered some bandwagon fans. That wasn't directed at you specifically, rather all the fans who take a win first approach...... The Sox have put a good product out on the field. Has it been great? Not often enough, obviously.... But the Sox have been competitive almost every year and are by no means a bottom tier team in terms of winning games and consistency, yet they are definitely in the bottom tier in attendance. The bottom line is that most of the more diehard fans (the kind that hang out on message boards) will b****, but still go to games when they have the opportunity. However, the "casual" fans will not. It's notn the die hards that Jerry is worried about. The fact is, there aren't enough of you. IF you build a team and spend money wildly to attract those casual fans that have no loyalty to the team, you are building a paper house which will fall as soon as the team has a year filled with injuries and falls out of contention early. The best way for Sox fans to support the team is to quit b****ing, buy tickets and support the team they supposedly love. Get other more casual friends to go with you. Turn them on so they will come back. Get attendance to 2.5 million and watch the payroll begin to rise. But if they have to offer half price Mondays to get there, then the increased attendance is not going to bring in the revenue needed to up the payroll. Rather than fight JR's wa ys, why not try to prove him wrong? Show up, be loud, support your team. You might be surprised at the results you get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 Is it me or is Rexy ignoring my posts? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 Is it me or is Rexy ignoring my posts? lol Not ignoring....... just didn't disagree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molto Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 not to stick up for the Sox or anything, but all of baseball is going cheap this year. there is no doubt JR has been cheap for many years (granted, he has opened up a little bit over the past couple years, at least more than he ever has), but this is the one season where you can't say JR is alone, or with a very small group, when it comes to this. There are only a handfull of teams who are adding salary, while many others are standing pat or dumping. Is JR cheap? Even though we truly don't know the financial situation, it is safe to say he is, but he's no "cheaper" than many other owners this offseason. Trading Ordonez would be a move I'm sure many Sox fans will have trouble digesting, but like it or not, our payroll is going to be under $60 million, and with that being the way it is, trading Ordonez wouldn't really be a bad move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 not to stick up for the Sox or anything, but all of baseball is going cheap this year. Then he should BUCK THE TREND ( just like he bucked the "sign pitchers to 3-year-deals" trend or the "sign impact free agents" trend )! The AL Central is going to be more winnable this year than the past few, with Minny downsizing and Cleveland not grown up yet. KC will also make it interesting, but the Sox SHOULD have more financial strength than freaking Kansas City, Missouri. The lesson JR SHOULD be learning from the Marlins is NOT that a 50 mil payroll can win the World Series. The lesson IS that if you mix youth and experience, power, speed and pitching, and homegrown and outside players, you can get into the playoffs. Once you're there, anything CAN happen. I'm not telling anyone anything they don't already know, but I'm tired of the Sox ignoring the obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yossarian Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 Yeah, you're right....... no reason to support your team if they suck. Just go when they win..... Isn't that what they call a bandwagon fan?? Why are you slamming this poster? I feel the same way and I ain't no bandwagon fan. People are seriously underestimating the negativity that will come if the Sox trade Maggs. You think White Flag was bad? Sox fans have shown uncommon loyalty througout the years. The Cubs are on the verge of locking the town up. This is no time for being cheap or rebuilding. The fact is that Reinsdorf has a verifiable history going back to his Balcor days, before he even thought of buying a baseball team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 he lesson JR SHOULD be learning from the Marlins is NOT that a 50 mil payroll can win the World Series If that's the lesson wants to learn watching the World Series, he's not only cheap but also very, very dumb. Few points: 1. Marlins win was a fluke. Replay 2003 postseason 10 times and I am afraid they fall short 9 of those they way they played against Ginats, Cubs and Yanks. 2. How many team with under 60 Mill payrolls were there in MLB in 2003 and how many of them made it to MLCS? 3. How many world championship teams in the last 10 years were NOT in the top THIRD of the rest of the league in payroll? 55-57 Mill payroll might just win ALC, but in the playoffs, lack of BIG 3 starters, big closer and line-up depth will be quickly exposed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 Why are you slamming this poster? I feel the same way and I ain't no bandwagon fan. People are seriously underestimating the negativity that will come if the Sox trade Maggs. You think White Flag was bad? Sox fans have shown uncommon loyalty througout the years. The Cubs are on the verge of locking the town up. This is no time for being cheap or rebuilding. The fact is that Reinsdorf has a verifiable history going back to his Balcor days, before he even thought of buying a baseball team. So if it were your money, you'd just drop another $20 million?? Sounds so easy when it isn't your money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yossarian Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 So if it were your money, you'd just drop another $20 million?? Sounds so easy when it isn't your money. If I thought I could improve the team hell yes. The Sox already make money. Reinsdorf has always made money. He could make a hell of a lot more if he tried. Instead he is going to make Chicago a one team baseball city. I'm sorry, I'm ever so tired of this owner. He plays us all for chumps and laughs all the way to the bank. I've made my share of dumb predictions in my life, but on Reinsdorf I called it right in 1981, when nobody heard anything about him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickman Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 Personally, I believe this is all part of the Sox re-building program. getting Ozzie started the whole thing. This should be Franks last year, Valentin's last year, S- Alomar's last year, Maggs or Lee will go. They will probably keep Konerko this year and try to trade him again next year, but after that, he gone. So time to cut and re-build around Crede, Olivo, Reed, borchard. In the next two years, Thomas, valentin, lee, maggs, konerko, buerle, Alomar, Will all be gone.Why not get some good young players for these guys, re-build your farm, and kind of compete in a division that doesn't spend money. if they catch lightening in a bottle one day then add a solid veteran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 If I thought I could improve the team hell yes. The Sox already make money. Reinsdorf has always made money. He could make a hell of a lot more if he tried. Instead he is going to make Chicago a one team baseball city. I'm sorry, I'm ever so tired of this owner. He plays us all for chumps and laughs all the way to the bank. I've made my share of dumb predictions in my life, but on Reinsdorf I called it right in 1981, when nobody heard anything about him. Well tell us more, since you seem to know all about JR's books. How much does he make each year? After expenses are gone, how much net profit is there? How much more profit would you expect if he spent an extra $20 million on players? If you have all the answers, let's hear em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yossarian Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 Well tell us more, since you seem to know all about JR's books. How much does he make each year? After expenses are gone, how much net profit is there? How much more profit would you expect if he spent an extra $20 million on players? If you have all the answers, let's hear em. Of course I don't have access to his books. I know that he was very successful at Balcor before he bought the Sox. I know that people who are better positioned than me have told me more than once that the Sox make money, have always made money. Reinsdorf has said on many occasions that he is never in any business to "lose money". I know that he has a sweetheart lease. I've been told that it is constructed in such a way that the ownership group does best when the Sox are less than 2 million in attendance. Perhaps there are others here who are better versed in the tax structure of the White Sox lease. I know that up to a certain point the Sox pay nothing and then as attendance rises a payment structure kicks in. The WS play in the third largest market, but act like they are in KC or Pgh or Milw. Nobody is suggesting that the Sox throw money around like Steinbrenner. A payroll of 70-80 million would still not be in the upper echelon. I am not even suggesting that they HAVE to spend this amount, just to be flexible, not set a number in stone. The first goal should be to win, within reasonable spending limits. If the money can be spent to improve the team and keep it in contention, then I say DO IT! When the Sox went out and got Everett and Alomar the fans responded. If they keep trying the fans will respond further. Sox fans are not sheep like Cubs fans but a little bit of trying will go a long way with them. Honestly, this is a win win situation for Reinsdorf and his group. Chicago is still a hell of a sports town. It is not historically a Cubs town, the pendulum has swung back and forth for a century. That is changing. Since the 1985 season (after the Cubs won a division) the momentum has swung sharply in favor of the Cubs. Since 85 the Cubs have outdrawn the Sox 17 out of 19 years. Losing Harry Caray, being a hard head in the 94 strike, the White Flag trade and insulting the fans has not helped. The Sox are on the verge on losing the whole ball of wax to the Cubs. It's not fantasy, it's hard reality and I'm surprised a hard headed successful businessman like Reinsdorf can't see it. I could go on and on. Of course I don't have "all the answers", but I do have a strong opinion. Why should someone who dares to disagree on one topic have to have "all the answers?" Why is someone who is tired of this ownership group and its penny pinching tunnel vision ways be called a "fair weather fan." I'm sure you're an OK guy in person and I hope we could be civilized over a beer or two if we met, but I have to say based on what I'm seeing I strongly disagree with you on this matter. I just want to see the Sox try to win. I've always been there with my loyalty and support and money, such as I can afford. I'm not happy with what I'm seeing and hearing this off season, but if I turn out to be wrong then that's just fine with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 We can agree to disagree on some issues. I think we agree more than you think, though. It just seems like to me there is this standoffish attitude with Sox fans against Reinsdorf. They won't come unless he does certain things. I don't pretend to know the full history nor have lived the full history which pits Sox fans against their owner. But from the outside looking in, it seems like something needs to give. Reinsdorf isn't going to until he sees an indication that it will be worth it. Until then, he will run the team on what he sees as a reasonable budget and trust his staff to put together a team that can win under those guidelines. So my question is, why can't Sox fans (i know i am speaking in a big time generality) not rally around their team, in spite of its owner? Why not support the team avidly whether they are in first place or third? Why not understand that it will be that support that will get them closer to what they want, at least theoretically (good baseball decisions still have to be made)? A wise man once said that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of futility. Why not see that until someone budges, the results aren't going to change? Perhaps it is time for someone to do something different. I know this not an association Sox fans that can vote to better support the team, so this is all more theoretical than realistic, but it seems to me, that there needs to be a way to get the Sox out of the rut of low attendance. Sure the Sox are not free of blame. But rather than sitting back and waiting for someone else to change, why not, in the spirit of supporting the team you love, make a bigger commitment to do something that the fans can control? That is show up more and be more committed than ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 Rex, The answer is because Sox fans do not trust Reinsdorf. If they honestly thought showing up would make him give us a great team, then it would be sold out 3-4 times a week. But people dont trust Reinsdorf. We dont trust the Owner who took apart the Bulls. We dont trust the owner who was a large part of the reason the World Series was not played, when the Sox were in First place and people were showing. We dont trust him because of the White Flag trade, etc. You cant trust an owner that has shown nothing but the unwillingness to go out and win a championship. Even when he won with the Bulls, he was cheap about it. Sox fans want to go to games, they just dont want Reinsdorf to get the best of them again. That is why the Sox have to be winning before people will show, because nothing but actual proof will do this time. Weve believed him before, now its time that he believe in us. SB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.