The trade ideas begin! Robert for Holliday ++

[almagest]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Thats cute language choice on Robert. A “guy who has put up a 5+ WAR season (actually no he hasn't) sounds better than a guy who put up a 0.5 WAR season last year.

Crochet im not sure whether the market will be strong, he’s a legit talent but he has health concerns beyond an average pitcher at least for now. Someone might bid heavily for him, if you got the Phillies showing real interest for example we know they can be aggressive. 

Luis Robert will not bring the return of a 5 WAR player with 3 years of control remaining. If the White Sox have decided to move on from him, it will be at a super large discount. 

5 bWAR/4.9 fWAR in 2023. I'll take the "+" off if it makes you happy.

If the Sox think Robert has no chance to get back to a 3+ WAR player, then they should trade him now. If they think Crochet was a 1 year wonder and is likely to get hurt again, or never make it as a SP long-term, then they should trade him now. If Robert turns it around and Crochet continues to be a top flight starter next year, then Getz should be fired immediately because he sold incredibly low on the only two good assets he has remaining.

Jackson Holliday was TERRIBLE in 100+ PAs this year. He'll probably be fine, but that doubt is there now. If you trade your top two remaining assets for him and he's not a franchise player, then the rebuild is pushed back even further.

That said, I would 100% trade Crochet for him. Robert is not enough right now, I agree there.

 

[Timmy U]

Hopefully Getz learned from Vargas fiasco -- Do not package your mlb assets. 

[almagest]

12 minutes ago, 46DidIt said:

Moncada has put up a 5 WAR season. You wouldn’t include him, if you could?

That was 5 years ago. Robert did it last year. Way more likely Robert bounces back than Moncada.

[46DidIt]

1 hour ago, almagest said:

That was 5 years ago. Robert did it last year. Way more likely Robert bounces back than Moncada.

I suppose but Robert looked like total dog doo this year

[almagest]

52 minutes ago, 46DidIt said:

I suppose but Robert looked like total dog doo this year

That's why I don't want to trade him, because no one is going to pay what the Sox need to help turn this thing around. They're better off hoping he rebounds this year.

[WhiteSox2023]

16 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

No, this is an awful deal for the Sox

No, the Fedde/Kopech trade was an awful deal for the Sox made by the worst GM in baseball.  I don’t trust Getz for a second to deal Crochet and Robert for players that he and his advisors like.  See Fletcher and Vargas as a reminder of how awful Getz is at choosing talent in a trade return.

Robert looks like another Eloy and Moncada — poor performance and injuries.  It is probably best to see if Robert turns it around next year but Jerry will never offer Crochet a deal that he will accept.  I’ll take 6 years of a 20-year old potential star SS that fits the Sox new timeline of not being good for years.  Robert and Crochet will not be around by the time the Sox are competitive again anyways.

Edited 19 hours ago by WhiteSox2023

[Quin]

1 hour ago, almagest said:

That's why I don't want to trade him, because no one is going to pay what the Sox need to help turn this thing around. They're better off hoping he rebounds this year.

Getz will ask for your best prospect, then settle for your 8th best and a 29-year-old reliever.

[almagest]

35 minutes ago, Quin said:

Getz will ask for your best prospect, then settle for your 8th best and a 29-year-old reliever.

I don't think Getz is a good talent evaluator, but Thorpe was their 5th best (and top 100) prospect, plus won minor league pitcher of the year. He was a solid headliner, especially given no one apparently trades top end hitting prospects anymore. The rest of that package stinks so far, I'll give you that.

[Quin]

32 minutes ago, almagest said:

I don't think Getz is a good talent evaluator, but Thorpe was their 5th best (and top 100) prospect, plus won minor league pitcher of the year. He was a solid headliner, especially given no one apparently trades top end hitting prospects anymore. The rest of that package stinks so far, I'll give you that.

It was one part embellishment, one part adding the rest of his trades to the joke 

[Balta1701]

6 hours ago, almagest said:

5 bWAR/4.9 fWAR in 2023. I'll take the "+" off if it makes you happy.

If the Sox think Robert has no chance to get back to a 3+ WAR player, then they should trade him now. If they think Crochet was a 1 year wonder and is likely to get hurt again, or never make it as a SP long-term, then they should trade him now. If Robert turns it around and Crochet continues to be a top flight starter next year, then Getz should be fired immediately because he sold incredibly low on the only two good assets he has remaining.

Jackson Holliday was TERRIBLE in 100+ PAs this year. He'll probably be fine, but that doubt is there now. If you trade your top two remaining assets for him and he's not a franchise player, then the rebuild is pushed back even further.

That said, I would 100% trade Crochet for him. Robert is not enough right now, I agree there.

 

It’s entirely possible that Crochet gets a strong offer, it only takes one team to do it. Heck, the Phillies game today could affect this.

With Robert, there is no way any team is paying a big prospect return for him after last year. If a team is trading for him, it’s at a big discount.

But in both cases, it seems possible that the decision to move the players has already been made. That was clearly the case with Cease last year, he was getting traded for whatever offer came through. In the end they got a tolerable offer, certainly not a great one.

If they’ve decided they are moving on from Robert no matter what, that hurts his value even more because that means the White Sox won’t hold him even if the offers for him are terrible. 

It also seems entirely possible that they e decided to attach Benintendi to Crochet to move his contract. This will also hurt the chances of moving Crochet.

If a great offer does appear for Crochet then great, but if one doesn’t, and if they’re determined to dump these guys and to move Benintendi as well, then packaging them to get an actual highly regarded player seems reasonable to me.

But the key is, if they’ve decided they’re trading Robert and they’re trading Crochet and they need to dump Benintendi’s contract, that removes a lot of leverage. Robert will not return much if he’s moved, even if a team loves him they will expect a huge discount after his awful 2024. If it’s already decided to be happening, then his price will be low, and that will be that.

[kitekrazy]

3 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

No, the Fedde/Kopech trade was an awful deal for the Sox made by the worst GM in baseball.  I don’t trust Getz for a second to deal Crochet and Robert for players that he and his advisors like.  See Fletcher and Vargas as a reminder of how awful Getz is at choosing talent in a trade return.

 

What I don't get is did anyone in the organization say that wasn't a good idea?  If this was recommended plenty of people need to go. Or did they want Getz to fail? Did Getz take any advice?   There probably has to be a lot more going on in this organization for such a horrible trade. The only other option I can think of is Tony thought it was a great idea. 

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

What I don't get is did anyone in the organization say that wasn't a good idea?  If this was recommended plenty of people need to go. Or did they want Getz to fail? Did Getz take any advice?   There probably has to be a lot more going on in this organization for such a horrible trade. The only other option I can think of is Tony thought it was a great idea. 

From what we heard, one of the assistant hitting coaches recommended Vargas.

He was fired a week later.

[kitekrazy]

34 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

From what we heard, one of the assistant hitting coaches recommended Vargas.

He was fired a week later.

So they listened to ONE guy. No one else had any input? 

[joejoesox]

Herb Lawrence and Ryan McGuffey both spoke about how Eloy was known by many people to have a lazy mindset and never came to the games prepared

Is Robert known for the same things?

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, joejoesox said:

Herb Lawrence and Ryan McGuffey both spoke about how Eloy was known by many people to have a lazy mindset and never came to the games prepared

Is Robert known for the same things?

It is also pretty clear that the organization didn't actually prepare them nor expect them to be prepared. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

5 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

No, the Fedde/Kopech trade was an awful deal for the Sox made by the worst GM in baseball.  I don’t trust Getz for a second to deal Crochet and Robert for players that he and his advisors like.  See Fletcher and Vargas as a reminder of how awful Getz is at choosing talent in a trade return.

Robert looks like another Eloy and Moncada — poor performance and injuries.  It is probably best to see if Robert turns it around next year but Jerry will never offer Crochet a deal that he will accept.  I’ll take 6 years of a 20-year old potential star SS that fits the Sox new timeline of not being good for years.  Robert and Crochet will not be around by the time the Sox are competitive again anyways.

Star SS? Seriously, what are you talking about? Dude is barely a serviceable 2b defensively. Good lord, Holliday is an even more overrated 2b prospect than Yoan Moncada was.

[WhiteSox2023]

2 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

So they listened to ONE guy. No one else had any input? 

Getz listened to his assistant GM Josh Barfield on choosing Dominic Fletcher over Jake McCarthy, due to Barfield’s knowledge of both players since he was the the director of player development for the Diamondbacks.

Getz then listened to assistant hitting coach Mike Tosar on acquiring Miguel Vargas because Tosar was the scout with the Dodgers who originally signed Vargas.  Tosar was fired a week later.

Perhaps there was input from others but only the above two guys were mentioned for both the Fletcher and Vargas acquisitions.

You can’t make this stuff up.  And by “stuff” I mean epic failures.

Edited 12 hours ago by WhiteSox2023

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Getz listened to his assistant GM Josh Barfield on choosing Dominic Fletcher over Jake McCarthy, due to Barfield’s knowledge of both players since he was the the director of player development for the Diamondbacks.

Getz then listened to assistant hitting coach Mike Tosar on acquiring Miguel Vargas because Tosar was the scout with the Dodgers who originally signed Vargas.  Tosar was fired a week later.

You can’t make this stuff up.  And by “stuff” I mean epic failures.

Considering the narrative seems to be they have fired most scouts,  including the whole international staff, seems to be a great time to be trading our two best pieces.

[WhiteSox2023]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Star SS? Seriously, what are you talking about? Dude is barely a serviceable 2b defensively. Good lord, Holliday is an even more overrated 2b prospect than Yoan Moncada was.

Holliday played more games at SS than 2B in the minors and the scouting reports I’ve read say he’s at least average defensively at SS.  They moved him to 2B because they weren’t going to move their All-Star Gunnar Henderson from SS.  But fine, I’ll take a 2B prospect with a .928 OPS in the minors.  You think he’s overrated because of 190 at bats in the majors.  He’s 20 years old.  This isn’t a 24 year old Vargas with 509 career at bats.

Edited 11 hours ago by WhiteSox2023

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, joejoesox said:

Herb Lawrence and Ryan McGuffey both spoke about how Eloy was known by many people to have a lazy mindset and never came to the games prepared

Is Robert known for the same things?

Some of the stuff we've gotten about Robert includes him not knowing who the bench coach was or knowing his name, and public statements about how he doesn't want scouting reports or to study or anything like that before he goes up to the plate because he just wants to do his thing.

I believe they've said the latter thing like they thought it was a positive, at least during '23. 

[Sleepy Harold]

16 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Some of the stuff we've gotten about Robert includes him not knowing who the bench coach was or knowing his name, and public statements about how he doesn't want scouting reports or to study or anything like that before he goes up to the plate because he just wants to do his thing.

I believe they've said the latter thing like they thought it was a positive, at least during '23. 

Tommy Pham was complimentary of Robert with the Foul Territory crew this year.  

[tray]

The WSox have a serious talent deficit that they should begin to address by signing Free Agents. Getz is never going to outsmart and out-deal another GM.

IMO, the WSox should view starting pitching as their cornerstone and build upon it.  Of course other teams want our best pitchers, F them.

[Chimpton]

30 minutes ago, tray said:

The WSox have a serious talent deficit that they should begin to address by signing Free Agents. Getz is never going to outsmart and out-deal another GM.

IMO, the WSox should view starting pitching as their cornerstone and build upon it.  Of course other teams want our best pitchers, F them.

They will no doubt sign free agents, just not the ones fans want, no doubt they will dumpster dive again for reclamation projects.

[nitetrain8601]

9 hours ago, Sleepy Harold said:

Tommy Pham was complimentary of Robert with the Foul Territory crew this year.  

Again, I think Robert is not suddenly crap. More likely, his team just turned to crap around him. He has no protection in the lineup. He has no idea how to approach the low and away breaking ball. 

 

He would fit Baltimore's lineup quite well and mash. 

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, Chimpton said:

They will no doubt sign free agents, just not the ones fans want, no doubt they will dumpster dive again for reclamation projects.

The one they should consider is HaSeong Kim, but it’s only because he will be coming off shoulder surgery and his offense was down compared to 2023.

It’s simply because they need at least one solid fielder on the infield…and nobody is ideally suited to play SS of their top four infield youngsters.

And Adames is going to get a massive deal based on 2024, forget that.

 

But JR won’t even authorize a contract over $50 million this offseason…he’s simply desperate to offload Benintendi, let alone add pricier FA’s.  Based on his 2023 fWAR, a playoff team like the Dodgers will go after Kim…or maybe the Brewers to replace Adames.