JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 17 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: This is not accurate. Cease was originally expected to be a 1st round pick. He tore his UCL his senior year of high school which allowed the Cubs to take him in the 6th round. The Cubs drafted him and gave him a $1.5 million dollar signing bonus ($269,500 slot recommendation) knowing he would need TJ surgery. The hype for Cease was always there. At the time of the trade, Eloy was the Cubs #1 prospect and MLB’s #8 overall prospect, while Cease was the Cubs #2 prospect and MLB’s #63 overall prospect. These trades pretty much don’t happen anymore, definitely not for a starter who wasn’t considered to be a sure-fire ace. https://www.mlb.com/news/white-sox-trade-jose-quintana-for-4-players-c241975980 So the #63 prospect ended up having a tremendously more productive mlb career than the #8 prospect but yet it’s a sure thing Holliday will have a better mlb career than Justin Crawford? 🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Yea... I never said don’t trade for top prospects. No idea where you got that from. I said I’d much prefer a package of 3-4 top prospects over the 1 “can’t miss” prospect. More realistic is you'd take 3-4 pitching prospects over one can't miss one. And no, i'd take the can't miss one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 (edited) 9 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: So the #63 prospect ended up having a tremendously more productive mlb career than the #8 prospect but yet it’s a sure thing Holliday will have a better mlb career than Justin Crawford? 🤷♂️ Nothing is a sure thing. And like I said before, perhaps if Eloy wasn’t a walking injury and wasn’t guaranteed millions almost immediately, he’d be an .850 OPS guy hitting 30+ homers a year right now. Edited October 8 by WhiteSox2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 9 minutes ago, bmags said: More realistic is you'd take 3-4 pitching prospects over one can't miss one. And no, i'd take the can't miss one. Given where the Sox currently stand, yes, I’d take the collective group of Shultz, Smith, and Iriarte over Skenes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 (edited) 45 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Given where the Sox currently stand, yes, I’d take the collective group of Shultz, Smith, and Iriarte over Skenes Is that really a fair comparison or analogy to the Phillies trade proposal you mentioned? Schultz and Smith are rated higher than anyone in your Phillies proposal and are likely already expected to be near “sure-thing” starters in the MLB. Perhaps not sure-fire bets to be absolute studs like Skenes, but definitely quality MLB starting pitchers with a Skenes-esque ceiling. Edited October 8 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 52 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Nothing is a sure thing. And like I said before, perhaps if Eloy wasn’t a walking injury and wasn’t guaranteed millions almost immediately, he’d be an .850 OPS guy hitting 30+ homers a year right now. Are u implying if Eloy wasn't paid big bucks right away that he'd be good hitter? Lots of players get huge contract dollars and perform. I disagree with your premise. Eloy is just another player who can't/won't make it in the bigs. He ought to go to Japan and try and reinvent himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomtom Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 On 10/5/2024 at 11:00 AM, Balta1701 said: Robert + Crochet + Benintendi for Holliday. way too much for Holliday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 8 Author Share Posted October 8 On 10/5/2024 at 10:00 AM, Balta1701 said: Robert + Crochet + Benintendi for Holliday. Jerry approves of this message. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Is that really a fair comparison or analogy to the Phillies trade proposal you mentioned? Schultz and Smith are rated higher than anyone in your Phillies proposal and are likely already expected to be near “sure-thing” starters in the MLB. Perhaps not sure-fire bets to be absolute studs like Skenes, but definitely quality MLB starting pitchers with a Skenes-esque ceiling. I was responding to the other poster’s hypothetical. And I agree, Skenes is far more of a sure thing than Holliday, which is why Holliday has less trade value than Skenes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 2 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Given where the Sox currently stand, yes, I’d take the collective group of Shultz, Smith, and Iriarte over Skenes Damn, you really have such little faith in Drew Thorpe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 3 minutes ago, Quin said: Damn, you really have such little faith in Drew Thorpe? Like Holliday, he’s no longer a prospect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 16 minutes ago, Quin said: Damn, you really have such little faith in Drew Thorpe? I’ll bite this one - I have found everyone from that trade super unimpressive and at this point am hopeful there might be one decent reliever out of the Cease trade. If that’s the kind of return you get by going with quantity, don’t do that again. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I’ll bite this one - I have found everyone from that trade super unimpressive and at this point am hopeful there might be one decent reliever out of the Cease trade. If that’s the kind of return you get by going with quantity, don’t do that again. And if you trade for one guy and he’s a bust like Eloy how is that any better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I’ll bite this one - I have found everyone from that trade super unimpressive and at this point am hopeful there might be one decent reliever out of the Cease trade. If that’s the kind of return you get by going with quantity, don’t do that again. So, my point was that if JUSTgottaBELIEVE actually believed in Thorpe, which we know he does, then he should drive Skenes to Chicago himself, because Skenes-Crochet-Thorpe is a nasty front 3 (again, if you believe in Thorpe). You'd need 2 of the Sox remaining starting prospects to hit, which we know is a tall order, but rookie pitchers that put up a sub-2 ERA and start the All-Star game don't fall off trees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: And if you trade for one guy and he’s a bust like Eloy how is that any better? So what’s the answer? Hold Crochet, win 110 games over the next two seasons combined, and he leaves as A free agent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 11 minutes ago, Quin said: So, my point was that if JUSTgottaBELIEVE actually believed in Thorpe, which we know he does, then he should drive Skenes to Chicago himself, because Skenes-Crochet-Thorpe is a nasty front 3 (again, if you believe in Thorpe). You'd need 2 of the Sox remaining starting prospects to hit, which we know is a tall order, but rookie pitchers that put up a sub-2 ERA and start the All-Star game don't fall off trees. I still believe in Thorpe but why the hell are you penciling Crochet into the rotation? He’s gone. So you have Skenes, Thorpe, and Cannon as your #3? Where’s that getting you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: So what’s the answer? Hold Crochet, win 110 games over the next two seasons combined, and he leaves as A free agent? I’ve made my position clear. Absolutely trade Crochet but I’m not trading him for a single player like Holliday in return. If the front office is incapable of finding 3 quality prospects in return for Crochet then none of this matters anyways. I like the idea of Crawford+Caba as the foundation of a trade with the Phillies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: I still believe in Thorpe but why the hell are you penciling Crochet into the rotation? He’s gone. So you have Skenes, Thorpe, and Cannon as your #3? Where’s that getting you? Lmao, if we're already projecting Crochet as gone in this scenario, then there is no point to any of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 10 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: I’ve made my position clear. Absolutely trade Crochet but I’m not trading him for a single player like Holliday in return. If the front office is incapable of finding 3 quality prospects in return for Crochet then none of this matters anyways. I like the idea of Crawford+Caba as the foundation of a trade with the Phillies. Well, the return for the Cease Trade looks to me to be 0 quality MLB players. I'm literally hoping that the #1 player in the deal was hurt last year, because maybe then he can look better if he heals. That doesn't bode well at all for the idea of finding 3 quality prospects from mid-tier guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 So to be clear Get quantity over quality Ideally quality and quantity, but we've seen that you're not getting premium quantity and quality with Getz at the helm. They've all got to matchup on a similar timeline, cause if they've got 3 years or less, they gotta be traded due to this poverty franchise. Assume the quantity will all hit. This is the 2016 rebuild but with a worse starting point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpton Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 42 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: And if you trade for one guy and he’s a bust like Eloy how is that any better? By that logic you would never trade for any prospect as there is always a risk in any player development from minors to MLB. Any trade for a prospect is a risk, sadly with Eloy and Moncada the White Sox have been stung twice with prospects who really should have been can't miss or at least much better than they ended up being. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 27 minutes ago, Quin said: Lmao, if we're already projecting Crochet as gone in this scenario, then there is no point to any of it. That’s the whole discussion. Crochet is gone, there’s multiple reports saying they’re moving him. Trade Crochet for multiple prospects. They desperately need depth up and down the org. Keep the multiple prospects rather than flipping them for one, again they need depth. The Sox have so many holes to address, why would they be considering trading an established player for a single prospect? It makes no sense imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpton Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 12 minutes ago, Quin said: So to be clear Get quantity over quality Ideally quality and quantity, but we've seen that you're not getting premium quantity and quality with Getz at the helm. They've all got to matchup on a similar timeline, cause if they've got 3 years or less, they gotta be traded due to this poverty franchise. Assume the quantity will all hit. This is the 2016 rebuild but with a worse starting point. I would always choose getting quality over quantity. Trying to get quantity to get a quicker fix just ends up where we are now with a roster of mostly AAAA players. Adding quality players that you can build a roster around is a slower rebuild but offers a hope of more than loads of AAAA prospects who are a gamble and never quite make it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 12 minutes ago, Quin said: So to be clear Get quantity over quality Ideally quality and quantity, but we've seen that you're not getting premium quantity and quality with Getz at the helm. They've all got to matchup on a similar timeline, cause if they've got 3 years or less, they gotta be traded due to this poverty franchise. Assume the quantity will all hit. This is the 2016 rebuild but with a worse starting point. Yes, they’re in a worse starting point than 2016. Did you miss that they lost 121 games this season? Now, I do believe they can be competitive again in 2-3 years but only if they hit on the Crochet trade and find some mlb caliber starters in the other vets they trade. Obviously need to draft better than the last rebuild and be more active in the international FA market too. Not an easy task I know but not impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 (edited) 7 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Yes, they’re in a worse starting point than 2016. Did you miss that they lost 121 games this season? Now, I do believe they can be competitive again in 2-3 years but only if they hit on the Crochet trade and find some mlb caliber starters in the other vets they trade. Obviously need to draft better than the last rebuild and be more active in the international FA market too. Not an easy task I know but not impossible. To be competitive in 2-3 years, the Sox pretty much have to hit on the Crochet trade, hold onto Robert, hope he tears it up in the first half of next season, and then hit on the return for him as well. The return for Crochet alone won’t be enough, and they need to trade both guys for bats. The Sox have like three above average position prospects that aren’t locks to be good MLB players along with a pile of crap on the current roster. Edited October 8 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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