The trade ideas begin! Robert for Holliday ++

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

22 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

He played as a 20 year old. Colson Montgomery is almost 2 years older than him.

Didn't Mazara play in MLB when he was 20 ?

[reiks12]

if my team gave up top prospects for Robert id riot

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

I would always choose getting quality over quantity. Trying to get quantity to get a quicker fix just ends up where we are now with a roster of mostly AAAA players. Adding quality players that you can build a roster around is a slower rebuild but offers a hope of more than loads of AAAA prospects who are a gamble and never quite make it.

With a different owner, I would agree. The problem is this owner won’t sign any worthwhile free agents so how do you intend to fill all these roster holes? 

Did the Nationals or Padres trade Soto for a single prospect? Did the Guardians trade Lindor for a single prospect? Did the Cubs trade Yu Darvish for a single prospect? I guess there’s no right or wrong answer but considering the complete lack of depth in the Sox org right now I strongly prefer the quantity route at this point in the rebuild. I’m not interested in a single player return for Crochet.

[Chimpton]

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

With a different owner, I would agree. The problem is this owner won’t sign any worthwhile free agents so how do you intend to fill all these roster holes? 

Did the Nationals or Padres trade Soto for a single prospect? Did the Guardians trade Lindor for a single prospect? Did the Cubs trade Yu Darvish for a single prospect? I guess there’s no right or wrong answer but considering the complete lack of depth in the Sox org right now I strongly prefer the quantity route at this point in the rebuild. I’m not interested in a single player return for Crochet.

Surely part of the reason the White Sox have no depth is that they have adopted the quantity over quality approach and none of the quantity prospects they have gambled on have reached MLB level. There is a difference between depth of talent and just depth of bodies filling out the farm but never really contributing to the MLB team. Let's face it they tried over 60 players this season so filling the roster was not a problem but finding quality was.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

Surely part of the reason the White Sox have no depth is that they have adopted the quantity over quality approach and none of the quantity prospects they have gambled on have reached MLB level. There is a difference between depth of talent and just depth of bodies filling out the farm but never really contributing to the MLB team. Let's face it they tried over 60 players this season so filling the roster was not a problem but finding quality was.

I’d contend the bigger problem has not been quantity vs quality but rather coaching/development. Until that’s addressed not much else works no matter what route they choose.

[WhiteSox2023]

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I’d contend the bigger problem has not been quantity vs quality but rather coaching/development. Until that’s addressed not much else works no matter what route they choose.

You just made an unintentional argument for acquiring Holliday.  Our coaching and development staff has not had a chance to besmirch him.

Edited October 8 by WhiteSox2023

[Chimpton]

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I’d contend the bigger problem has not been quantity vs quality but rather coaching/development. Until that’s addressed not much else works no matter what route they choose.

Agreed, that certainly applies to players the White Sox have drafted themselves as well, like Vaughn. If they had developed a few more of their own draft picks then we wouldn't be desperately trying to get everyone else's prospects. I struggle to think of the last position player who the Sox drafted themselves who has developed into a good MLB player (with the Sox).

[Quin]

4 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

Agreed, that certainly applies to players the White Sox have drafted themselves as well, like Vaughn. If they had developed a few more of their own draft picks then we wouldn't be desperately trying to get everyone else's prospects. I struggle to think of the last position player who the Sox drafted themselves who has developed into a good MLB player (with the Sox).

It's Tim Anderson. 

Drafted in 2013.

[Chimpton]

8 minutes ago, Quin said:

It's Tim Anderson. 

Drafted in 2013.

That sums up how bad palyer development is because the Sox have had and wasted some high picks on position players in the last decade, think of first round picks Zak Collins, Jake Burger (although injuries played their part with him) Nick Madrigal and Andrew Vaughn. Even Colson Montgomery is not looking the sure fire player he was supposed to be. 

Edited October 8 by Chimpton

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

So what’s the answer? Hold Crochet, win 110 games over the next two seasons combined, and he leaves as A free agent?

Yeah, this right here.  Unless you are coming up with nine figures to give to me over the next 5 to 6 years (say $140ish for the next 5 years, somewhere around $175 for 6.) to buyout enough time for the Sox to be decent again with Crochet on the roster, you are pissing away a depreciating asset.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

You just made an unintentional argument for acquiring Holliday.  Our coaching and development staff has not had a chance to besmirch him.

Holliday is not a finished product judging by his defense at 2b and .566 OPS this season…

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, Chimpton said:

Agreed, that certainly applies to players the White Sox have drafted themselves as well, like Vaughn. If they had developed a few more of their own draft picks then we wouldn't be desperately trying to get everyone else's prospects. I struggle to think of the last position player who the Sox drafted themselves who has developed into a good MLB player (with the Sox).

So what’s the solution? Just continue to draft high ceiling arms in the early rounds and hope you can develop enough to fill out a rotation as well as flip some for established veteran position players? Because they do seem to develop pitchers better than average, it’s just the position player side of things has been horrific.

[TaylorStSox]

4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I’ll bite this one - I have found everyone from that trade super unimpressive and at this point am hopeful there might be one decent reliever out of the Cease trade. If that’s the kind of return you get by going with quantity, don’t do that again.

It's way too early to give up on Zavala. He struggled last year in A+, but showed elite pitch recognition as a 20 year old in a tough league. That's after he put up a 140 wRC+ as a 19 year old in A ball.

I'd also be shocked if Thorpe doesn't have a long, productive career as a starter.

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

It's way too early to give up on Zavala. He struggled last year in A+, but showed elite pitch recognition as a 20 year old in a tough league. That's after he put up a 140 wRC+ as a 19 year old in A ball.

I'd also be shocked if Thorpe doesn't have a long, productive career as a starter.

If Thorpe wasn’t hurt last year, if that’s his stuff, I have no idea how he ever has an ERA below 5 as a starter.

[WhiteSox2023]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If Thorpe wasn’t hurt last year, if that’s his stuff, I have no idea how he ever has an ERA below 5 as a starter.

It was a small sample size but the K/9 was scary.

[caulfield12]

6 hours ago, Quin said:

It's Tim Anderson. 

Drafted in 2013.

Unless you count Burger as "good."  That one will be hotly debated.

It's a pretty sad indictment of the system when Sheets is arguably the next noteworthy draftee after the list of first rounders from above.

 

All of them, though, other than Anderson, with limited athleticism and dynamic impact tools in terms of affecting the game defensively or pressuring pitchers on the base paths.

Edited October 9 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

It should be noted that FG had Holliday as a net positive defensive player in 2024.

OAA at 64th percentile, speed at 95.

 

While a 2b on the Orioles, or even 3B...he's going to be a SS on about 15-20 other big league teams, roughly.

Obviously they have Westburg already as well.

[TaylorStSox]

56 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If Thorpe wasn’t hurt last year, if that’s his stuff, I have no idea how he ever has an ERA below 5 as a starter.

His minor league stats and his change up are just too good to ignore. Both aren't good, they're on the extreme side of elite. Over the last year, he lost about 3-5 mph on his FB. The injury seems to be pretty significant.

Edited October 9 by TaylorStSox

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

His minor league stats and his change up are just too good to ignore. Both aren't good, they're on the extreme side of elite.

If his changeup is any good why did everyone make contact with it?

[TaylorStSox]

11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If his changeup is any good why did everyone make contact with it?

Probably because of the significant decrease in FB velocity and inability to spot it. If you watch some of his minor league starts/highlights, his change is one of the nastier pitches you'll see.

 

You don't average 12.8 k/9 over a significant sample in AA without having good stuff.

Edited October 9 by TaylorStSox

[caulfield12]

But you need to have that 8-10+ mph differential between the change and the FB to really make it effective...throwing changes in the upper 70's or low 80's these days, hitters' eyes light up.

Or you need to have that massive arm extension like a Giolito, where they ball is getting on hitters faster than they realize, then you can play off of it with the change.

There has to be some kind of major deception in the delivery, otherwise.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Probably because of the significant decrease in FB velocity and inability to spot it. If you watch some of his minor league starts/highlights, his change is one of the nastier pitches you'll see.

That doesn’t mean the pitch is a good big league pitch or that he is a big league pitcher.

Maybe he was hurt the whole year and he has more than we saw this year, but the guy we saw did not have big league stuff. That includes his changeup, his numbers are unbelievably disappointing across the board.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

But you need to have that 8-10+ mph differential between the change and the FB to really make it effective...throwing changes in the upper 70's or low 80's these days, hitters' eyes light up.

Or you need to have that massive arm extension like a Giolito, where they ball is getting on hitters faster than they realize, then you can play off of it with the change.

There has to be some kind of major deception in the delivery, otherwise.

If he was doing any of those things, then he would have missed some bats. Deception will miss bats or get ground balls. Thorpe didn’t do any of that.

[Chimpton]

6 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

So what’s the solution? Just continue to draft high ceiling arms in the early rounds and hope you can develop enough to fill out a rotation as well as flip some for established veteran position players? Because they do seem to develop pitchers better than average, it’s just the position player side of things has been horrific.

The solution probably involves a top to bottom clear out of the coaches and player development, scouting etc, before any player rebuild, because if the same old people repeat the same old things it is unlikely that a miracle will happen any time soon. But that isn't a realistic prospect under the current ownership so we will have to hope for that miracle!

[TaylorStSox]

9 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

The solution probably involves a top to bottom clear out of the coaches and player development, scouting etc, before any player rebuild, because if the same old people repeat the same old things it is unlikely that a miracle will happen any time soon. But that isn't a realistic prospect under the current ownership so we will have to hope for that miracle!

Isn't that what Getz is doing? He's fired a ton over people over the last 6 months.