The trade ideas begin! Robert for Holliday ++

[Chisoxfn]

A year ago - maybe - but now - no way.  Even a year ago would have probably been no - because O's wouldn't have traded him, even at Robert max value. Now here - Robert's value has came down more than Holliday's.  Now I would be very happy if I was wrong about that and team(s) are going to bid up a bit here and there are more teams who are all in on Robert presuming he really is a stud and the Sox just wrecked him...fine by me...but not betting on that happening.

Feels like Robert is a better hold - have new coaching staff work with him and hopefully we see him have a good 1st half of the year. If he plays really well - than move him. I've always said with Robert - his peak is really strong - so try and trade him when he's on one of those runs vs. not.  Is it a risk sure - but it isn't like he's walking next year so I feel like it is worth accepting that risk.  

[WhiteSox2023]

20 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

You would have to be batshit crazy not to do Holliday for Crochet straight up, and I think Crochet is underrated. 9 players in all of baseball had an OPS above .900 this year. This isn't 2000. Holliday would instantly our best prospect since Frank.

And the Sox don’t have enough bats for a decent lineup, much less any true star potential players.  While you don’t want to lose Crochet, the Sox do have some promising arms that could fill the void.  You also free up that $75+ million dollar extension that wouldn’t be going to Crochet for other players.

Edited 4 hours ago by WhiteSox2023

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

26 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

When is the last comparable trade of a recent #1 overall prospect for an ace potential starter with two years of control?

The Sale trade is all I can think of.  I believe Moncada was the #1 overall prospect at the time but Sale had 3 more years of control left and was much more established as a top starter than Crochet is right now.  Sale was also under an extremely team-friendly contract for those remaining 3 years at $39.5 million total.

PLUS sale had like 5 years of top 5 Cy Young.. lol

[WhiteSox2023]

7 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

PLUS sale had like 5 years of top 5 Cy Young.. lol

Yep.  While the Sale return was larger (Kopech, along with the other two lesser prospects), Sale was better than Crochet and had an additional year of control.  Also, teams aren’t giving up their top prospects like they did in the years of the Sale and Quintana trades.

I’d trade Crochet for Holliday in a second, and wouldn’t think twice about it.  However, I doubt the Orioles would agree to the deal.

Edited 4 hours ago by WhiteSox2023

[46DidIt]

43 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

 9 players in all of baseball had an OPS above .900 this year. This isn't 2000.

Okay but what’s that have to do with Holliday 

[JoeC]

Holliday has one thing going for him - his dad was a good hitter for a long time.

Not that it guarantees anything, it's more that his dad knows what it takes to succeed as a big league hitter, and he's probably more likely to listen to his dad. Even if Sox coaching inevitably fails him, he has options.

In other words, he might be more immune than most to the typical shitty coaching the Sox seem to provide hitters.

[WhiteSox2023]

13 minutes ago, 46DidIt said:

Okay but what’s that have to do with Holliday 

Every season of his minor league career from ages 18 through 20 in 2022, 2023, and 2024, he has put up a .900+ OPS.  His career minor league OPS is .928.  Yes, it is the minors, but perhaps he continues that on to the majors once he gets acclimated.

Edited 4 hours ago by WhiteSox2023

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Every year of his minor league career from ages 18 through 20 in 2022, 2023, and 2024, he has put up a .900+ OPS.  Yes, it is the minors, but perhaps he continues that on to the majors once he gets acclimated.

Miguel Vargas missed putting up a .900 MiLB OPS for four straight years by 14 points in one season. (.906/.915/.885/1.005)

[WhiteSox2023]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Miguel Vargas missed putting up a .900 MiLB OPS for four straight years by 14 points in one season. (.906/.915/.885/1.005)

True, and that’s a good counterpoint.  However, Vargas wasn’t quite doing it at ages 18 to 20 and was also in the offense-inflated PCL when he was doing it.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

When is the last comparable trade of a recent #1 overall prospect for an ace potential starter with two years of control?

The Sale trade is all I can think of.  I believe Moncada was the #1 overall prospect at the time but Sale had 3 years of control left and was much more established as a top starter than Crochet is right now.  Sale was also under an extremely team-friendly contract for those remaining 3 years at $39.5 million total.

Well, Holliday is no longer the #1 prospect so not sure why it matters but, yes, Moncada + Kopech + Basabe + Diaz for Sale is the closest comp I guess. Sale had more value than Crochet has now but the return was also much more valuable than Holliday alone.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, TaylorStSox said:

You would have to be batshit crazy not to do Holliday for Crochet straight up, and I think Crochet is underrated. 9 players in all of baseball had an OPS above .900 this year. This isn't 2000. Holliday would instantly our best prospect since Frank.

#1 he’s no longer a prospect, #2 he hit a .566 OPS in MLB this season, #3 yes I know he’s young but so are Jackson Chourio and Jackson Merrill and they hit well, #4 he doesn’t play a premium defensive position

[TaylorStSox]

10 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

#1 he’s no longer a prospect, #2 he hit a .566 OPS in MLB this season, #3 yes I know he’s young but so are Jackson Chourio and Jackson Merrill and they hit well, #4 he doesn’t play a premium defensive position

He's 20 and has 208 ML PA's. He's absolutely still a prospect. He's also a SS on the White Sox.

Before this year, Crochet had 70IP over 4 seasons and the idea that you could get any value for him was laughable. He's lightning in a bottle. I'd prefer they sign him, but if the O's willing to trade Holliday for him, it's a no brainer.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

12 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

He's 20 and has 208 ML PA's. He's absolutely still a prospect. He's also a SS on the White Sox.

Before this year, Crochet had 70IP over 4 seasons and the idea that you could get any value for him was laughable. He's lightning in a bottle. I'd prefer they sign him, but if the O's willing to trade Holliday for him, it's a no brainer.

Technically, no, he’s no longer a prospect. I don’t care if he’s a SS on a historically bad White Sox team. It doesn’t mean he will be any good there. 

[Dick Allen]

36 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

#1 he’s no longer a prospect, #2 he hit a .566 OPS in MLB this season, #3 yes I know he’s young but so are Jackson Chourio and Jackson Merrill and they hit well, #4 he doesn’t play a premium defensive position

When is the last time the Sox had a real good 2B?

[tray]

Holliday is 6 ft tall in heels. He had 5 HR in over 200 ABs. Is that the Holliday I hear is worth giving up a proven Ace pitcher?

No Fn Way.

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, tray said:

Holliday is 6 ft tall in heels. He had 5 HR in over 200 ABs. Is that the Holliday I hear is worth giving up a proven Ace pitcher?

No Fn Way.

He played as a 20 year old. Colson Montgomery is almost 2 years older than him.

Edited 3 hours ago by Dick Allen

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

He played as a 20 year old. Colson Montgomery is almost 2 years older than him.

I wouldn’t trade Crochet for Colson Montgomery straight up either

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I wouldn’t trade Crochet for Colson Montgomery straight up either

Holliday would be the Sox best player since Frank Thomas. 

[WhiteSox2023]

8 minutes ago, tray said:

Holliday is 6 ft tall in heels. He had 5 HR in over 200 ABs. Is that the Holliday I hear is worth giving up a proven Ace pitcher?

No Fn Way.

Unless Jerry throws some cash Crochet’s way, we will all enjoy watching him lead the Sox to two more losing seasons.  Sounds exciting.

[Bob Sacamano]

14 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

When is the last time the Sox had a real good 2B?

Iguchi? For like a season or 2?

Edited 2 hours ago by Bob Sacamano

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

11 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

When is the last time the Sox had a real good 2B?

Do we know Holliday will be a real good 2b in mlb? If he’s the next Jose Altuve then sure let’s trade one of the best SP in the game for him but we don’t even know if he’ll be as good as Nico Hoerner.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

8 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Holliday would be the Sox best player since Frank Thomas. 

I assume you mean position player and I’d take the under on Jose Abreu’s career 28 fWAR with the Sox.

[WhiteSox2023]

I think it’s funny that likely some of the same posters who have high hopes for guys like Montgomery (22), Ramos (22), and even Vargas (24) to a lesser extent think that 20-year old Holliday is a bust because of 208 MLB plate appearances.  The sad thing is that the Orioles wouldn’t accept this potential trade and if Crochet is traded, Getz’s return will be much weaker than Holliday.

[caulfield12]

24 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

When is the last time the Sox had a real good 2B?

Iguchi or Ray Durham

[Dick Allen]

15 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I assume you mean position player and I’d take the under on Jose Abreu’s career 28 fWAR with the Sox.

I guess you gave up on the premium defensive position argument. That was pretty fast.