The trade ideas begin! Robert for Holliday ++

[caulfield12]

https://prospectsworldwide.com/2023/11/28/jackson-holliday-ss-scouting-report-baltimore-orioles/amp/

60 fielding and 55 arm at SS is far better than anyone the Sox have right now.

He just doesn't have a WOW arm.

Even if he underwhelmed as much as Madrigal...let's say he would be roughly an average major league SS.

Let's not forget that Gunnar Henderson is one of the top 5-7 most valuable young players in all of baseball at the same position.

And they have Westburg as well. An embarrassment of riches.

 

PS Look how long it has taken Volpe to come around for NY.  And Witt Jr. flashed all the tools but still struggled as a rookie, too.  Same with Henderson.

Edited 2 hours ago by caulfield12

[TaylorStSox]

19 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I assume you mean position player and I’d take the under on Jose Abreu’s career 28 fWAR with the Sox.

Holliday will beat that number by age 27. He's about as can't miss as you can get.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Holliday will beat that number by age 27. He's about as can't miss as you can get.

Uh huh, just like Yoan Moncada right?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I guess you gave up on the premium defensive position argument. That was pretty fast.

You better hit the s%*# out of the ball like Abreu did with the Sox if you don’t play a premium position and expect to get star production. That’s the whole point.

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Uh huh, just like Yoan Moncada right?

The strikeout concerns with Moncada started with his first post season in Boston.

[TaylorStSox]

3 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Uh huh, just like Yoan Moncada right?

Moncada has been healthy in only 3 of the 9 years he's been in MLB. When he's healthy, he's a stud. When projecting Holliday, it's assuming he stays healthy.

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

You better hit the s%*# out of the ball like Abreu did with the Sox if you don’t play a premium position and expect to get star production. That’s the whole point.

There's zero reason to believe he won't stick at SS ... certainly not in Chicago, where nobody would push him off that spot.

Who?  Amaya?   That would be laughable.

We have already spent the last year hearing how and why Colson won't stick at SS.

 

The Sox can't even find one hitter at over 700 ops.  The bar for hitting the s%*# out of the ball is about as low as it possibly gets right now.  750-775 ops like Burger would feel miraculous.

Edited 2 hours ago by caulfield12

[TaylorStSox]

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

You better hit the s%*# out of the ball like Abreu did with the Sox if you don’t play a premium position and expect to get star production. That’s the whole point.

He does play a premium position when he's not blocked by Gunnar fucking Henderson.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

He does play a premium position when he's not blocked by Gunnar fucking Henderson.

You think he has the arm to be a good SS? I don’t.

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

You think he has the arm to be a good SS? I don’t.

Only 20. Can get stronger still.

[WhiteSox2023]

Offer Crochet for Holliday and see if the Orioles bite.  Just make sure to keep young Jackson away from the Cuban music scene.  It wasn’t long COVID.  Those music video vixens sapped all of Moncada’s power.

 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Only 20. Can get stronger still.

21 in two months. Is there evidence of arm strength improving that much after age 21? If so, I can’t wait to see what Masyn Winn’s arm is going to look like in a couple years.

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

You think he has the arm to be a good SS? I don’t.

How many games have you personally scouted him?

Royce Clayton and Jose Valentin's can have opposite skills at that spot and grade out quite similarly.

Edited 2 hours ago by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

21 in two months. Is there evidence of arm strength improving that much after age 21? If so, I can’t wait to see what Masyn Winn’s arm is going to look like in a couple years.

Sure...virtually half the young starting pitchers in baseball from high school through mid 20s that go to those training/performance academies like Driveline.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

How many games have you personally scouted him?

Royce Clayton and Jose Valentin's can have opposite skills at that spot and grade out quite similarly.

I’m looking at his Savant numbers from this season and last and they certainly don’t scream SS to me. In fact, they’re below average even for an mlb 2b.

[WhiteSox2023]

8 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I’m looking at his Savant numbers from this season and last and they certainly don’t scream SS to me. In fact, they’re below average even for an mlb 2b.

The Sox need talent up and down the lineup.  If Holliday ended up at 2B, I wouldn’t be that upset considering Hahn and now Getz have failed to fill that position (along with RF) for years.

[caulfield12]

27 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I’m looking at his Savant numbers from this season and last and they certainly don’t scream SS to me. In fact, they’re below average even for an mlb 2b.

How many of those who chart for Baseball Savant are or have been major league scouts?

 

The thing is, for every number on a computer screen...there's an Alex Gordon or Jose Iglesias or Stephen  Kwan with the heart and determination to prove that spread sheet wrong.

But you have to watch a player in person for weeks or months before you can make that kind of determination.  The old school Moneyball eye test.

 

Going by past prospect ratings and not in person scouting intelligence like the Dodgers or Orioles or Padres is what has partially created this entire Sox debacle.

Edited 1 hour ago by caulfield12

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

8 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

How many of those who chart for Baseball Savant are or have been major league scouts?

 

The thing is, for every number on a computer screen...there's an Alex Gordon or Jose Iglesias or Stephen  Kwan with the heart and determination to prove that spread sheet wrong.

But you have to watch a player in person for weeks or months before you can make that kind of determination.  The old school Moneyball eye test.

 

Going by past prospect ratings and not in person scouting intelligence like the Dodgers or Orioles or Padres is what has partially created this entire Sox debacle.

Arm strength isn’t some type of mystery sabermetrics stuff. Radar guns have been around for a long time you know.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

29 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

The Sox need talent up and down the lineup.  If Holliday ended up at 2B, I wouldn’t be that upset considering Hahn and now Getz have failed to fill that position (along with RF) for years.

Exactly why they shouldn’t be putting all their eggs in one basket while trading their best asset…

[caulfield12]

32 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Arm strength isn’t some type of mystery sabermetrics stuff. Radar guns have been around for a long time you know.

Then Shawon Dunston would have been the best SS in mlb history.

Jerry Rice consistently ran 4.55 40s but nobody ever caught him in real game situations.

Edited 1 hour ago by caulfield12

[WhiteSox2023]

34 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Exactly why they shouldn’t be putting all their eggs in one basket while trading their best asset…

I don’t want to watch Getz and his scouting wizardry acquire a handful of Samuel Zavala’s.  I’ll take the highly touted guy over lesser prospects/players that Getz would no doubt choose.