The trade ideas begin! Robert for Holliday ++

[bmags]

Haven’t been following but assuming this trade is near complete right

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

9 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

So your solution is to get lots of guys who aren’t.

I know you’re being a sarcastic asshole but my solution was to acquire several high upside prospects instead of one “can’t miss young guy.” As stated earlier in the thread, I’d prefer a package of Crawford, Caba, Saltiban, and DeMartini over Holliday alone.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

9 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

And one could question if giving them guaranteed deals was a good idea, but injuries killed them regardless.  I’ll take a guy that is just about major league ready over position prospect(s) the Sox would have to complete the development of (LOL!  I can’t even type that with a straight face).

Yoan, Eloy, and Luis were all “just about major league ready” too. How did that work out? You argue that the Sox won’t be competitive until 2030 anyways so why acquire a player whose service time has already started as the lone return for your best asset? Makes no sense.

[bmags]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Yoan, Eloy, and Luis were all “just about major league ready” too. How did that work out? You argue that the Sox won’t be competitive until 2030 anyways so why acquire a player whose service time has already started as the lone return for your best asset? Makes no sense.

Luis was signed, and Eloy was in A ball. That deal also netted Cease, who became one of the top pitchers in baseball. Those trades were actually fine, they netted starters. The problem was just laziness. The concept of trading for good prospects is not unsound because of the last rebuild.

[southsider2k5]

11 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

So your solution is to get lots of guys who aren’t.

Him and Chris Getz.

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

Haven’t been following but assuming this trade is near complete right

Right up there will competing in the AL Central.

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Yoan, Eloy, and Luis were all “just about major league ready” too. How did that work out? You argue that the Sox won’t be competitive until 2030 anyways so why acquire a player whose service time has already started as the lone return for your best asset? Makes no sense.

That’s business as usual for the White Sox. Instead of getting one or two great players, split it up and go for mediocrity. Holliday is obviously not on the block. But not wanting him due to some MLB ABs as a 20 year old, he’s younger than Noah Schultz and Hagen Smith, is crazy.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

18 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

That’s business as usual for the White Sox. Instead of getting one or two great players, split it up and go for mediocrity. Holliday is obviously not on the block. But not wanting him due to some MLB ABs as a 20 year old, he’s younger than Noah Schultz and Hagen Smith, is crazy.

Never said I didn’t want him. I said I wouldn’t trade Crochet for him. Big difference…

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

41 minutes ago, bmags said:

Luis was signed, and Eloy was in A ball. That deal also netted Cease, who became one of the top pitchers in baseball. Those trades were actually fine, they netted starters. The problem was just laziness. The concept of trading for good prospects is not unsound because of the last rebuild.

When the Sox acquired Yoan Moncada, I’d say where he was at in his career at that point was about as perfect as a comp to where Holliday is at in his career right now. Would you agree? If Holliday has the same career Moncada has had with the Sox, and he is the sole return for Crochet, would you consider that a good trade for the Sox? 

And yes, I totally agree re: Cease. Acquiring both Eloy and Cease in the Q trade was the key to that trade. Not just acquiring the one big name guy at the time (Eloy). How would that trade be viewed today if Cease wasn’t also included as Eloy flamed out? Thus, why I’d prefer 3-4 quality prospects as the return for Crochet rather than one “can’t miss” guy in Holliday…

Edited 5 hours ago by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[Dick Allen]

12 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Never said I didn’t want him. I said I wouldn’t trade Crochet for him. Big difference…

Considering the teams current situation, I’d trade 2 years Crochet for 6 years of him in a heartbeat. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Dick Allen

[Quin]

5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Never said I didn’t want him. I said I wouldn’t trade Crochet for him. Big difference…

If the Orioles offered that, you're not getting a better deal, because Elias is making a desperation deal.

They got packages of high-ceiling and quantity last time. The problem, once again, was this stupid organization, because Moncada (2019, 2021), Kopech (2021-2022), Giolito (2019-2021), Lopez (2018 and 2024 as a starter, 2021-2023 as a reliever), Dunning (2022-2023), Eloy (2019-2020) and Cease (2020-2024) have all had success in the majors at one point or another to varying degrees.

A real organization that isn't afraid of technology + not had Jerry trying to make up to TLR for what he considers a 40-year-old mistake would have probably done bangers with that group.

So you're right to a degree. Getting Holliday would be stupid cause he'd fail here.

[WhiteSox2023]

16 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Considering the teams current situation, I’d trade 2 years Crochet for 6 years of him in a heartbeat. 

Yes, I don’t understand this at all.

It’s either:

6 years of Holliday versus 2 years of Crochet,

OR

6 years of Holliday versus 3+ years of Crochet and $75+ million spent on him.

Seems like an easy decision to me.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

9 minutes ago, Quin said:

If the Orioles offered that, you're not getting a better deal, because Elias is making a desperation deal.

They got packages of high-ceiling and quantity last time. The problem, once again, was this stupid organization, because Moncada (2019, 2021), Kopech (2021-2022), Giolito (2019-2021), Lopez (2018 and 2024 as a starter, 2021-2023 as a reliever), Dunning (2022-2023), Eloy (2019-2020) and Cease (2020-2024) have all had success in the majors at one point or another to varying degrees.

A real organization that isn't afraid of technology + not had Jerry trying to make up to TLR for what he considers a 40-year-old mistake would have probably done bangers with that group.

So you're right to a degree. Getting Holliday would be stupid cause he'd fail here.

And it took that entire collective group just to make consecutive postseason appearances. Acquiring Holliday alone doesn’t move the needle. Caba+Crawford+Saltiban+DeMartini probably doesn’t either but at least it has the potential to fill 2-3 mlb roster holes in a couple years.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

20 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Considering the teams current situation, I’d trade 2 years Crochet for 6 years of him in a heartbeat. 

Simple yes or no question for you…

You would prefer Holliday alone over a package of Crawford+Caba+Saltiban+DeMartini from the Phillies?

Because I believe that’s the type of package it’s going to take for the Phillies to land Crochet.

[WhiteSox2023]

2 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Yoan, Eloy, and Luis were all “just about major league ready” too. How did that work out? You argue that the Sox won’t be competitive until 2030 anyways so why acquire a player whose service time has already started as the lone return for your best asset? Makes no sense.

I already stated two reasons why it likely didn’t work out.  However, the prospect talent and value (at the time) was still returned in those trades.  I don’t believe I ever said it would take until 2030 for the Sox to be competitive again.  But I do know that banking on Getz to pick out the right lower ranked prospects in any trade is a fool’s errand.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I already stated two reasons why it likely didn’t work out.  However, the prospect talent and value (at the time) was still returned in those trades.  I don’t believe I ever said it would take until 2030 for the Sox to be competitive again.  But I do know that banking on Getz to pick out the right lower ranked prospects in any trade is a fool’s errand.

^Same question for you that I asked @Dick Allen above, yes or no?

[WhiteSox2023]

16 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

^Same question for you that I asked @Dick Allen above, yes or no?

Just like I don't think the Orioles would deal Holliday for Crochet, I don’t think the Phillies would make that deal either.  I personally still take the single potential star every time.

Edited 5 hours ago by WhiteSox2023

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

8 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Just like I don't think the Orioles would deal Holliday for Crochet, I don’t think the Phillies would make that deal either.  I personally still take the single potential star every time.

Ok, so you’d take Holliday rather than the Phillies package. I disagree.

[WhiteSox2023]

7 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Ok, so you’d take Holliday rather than the Phillies package. I disagree.

Which is fine.  I can see your point of view.  The Sox need position player talent, multiples actually.  Crawford definitely has the genetics to pan out, but how often does the majority of a four prospects for one established player actually pan out?  I’ll take the potential star and former #1 overall prospect with the genetics.

Edited 4 hours ago by WhiteSox2023

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

16 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Which is fine.  I can see your point of view.  The Sox need position player talent, multiples actually.  Crawford definitely has the genetics to pan out, but how often does the majority of a four prospects for one established player actually pan out?  I’ll take the potential star and former #1 overall prospect with the genetics.

As mentioned above, I think the Sox only did well in the Q trade because they traded for multiple prospects. Eloy was a consensus top 5-10 mlb prospect at the time while Cease was just starting to crack top 100 lists. You view Holliday as the only potential star of the five players referenced between the Os and Phillies while I say the Sox are just as likely to find a star in that Phillies package with the potential added bonus of another mlb starter because of the quantity involved. I also don’t think Holliday is a lock to be an mlb star so that’s probably where our primary disagreement lies regarding value.

Edited 4 hours ago by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[Quin]

8 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Which is fine.  I can see your point of view.  The Sox need position player talent, multiples actually.  Crawford definitely has the genetics to pan out, but how often does the majority of a four prospects for one established player actually pan out?  I’ll take the potential star and former #1 overall prospect with the genetics.

If anything, the Sox (which includes Chris Getz!) record of developing raw talent over the past decade should encourage taking the guys who are highly ranked and close to the majors prospects over projects every single time.

An org like the Rays might have been able to develop the guys like Rutherford, Adolfo, Cespedes, Colas, Hansen, Basabe and Clarkin. Possibly have gotten more out of Burdi, Collins, Madrigal and Vaughn.

Yes - I'm aware that absolutely no org in the majors is gonna hit 100% on every prospect. But dear god, the Sox seemingly miss on every single one that they've had to develop in any capacity outside of like, Tim Anderson and Jake Burger (kinda, he took it into his own hands in 2020).

[WhiteSox2023]

34 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

As mentioned above, I think the Sox only did well in the Q trade because they traded for multiple prospects. Eloy was a consensus top 5-10 mlb prospect at the time while Cease was just starting to crack top 100 lists. You view Holliday as the only potential star of the five players referenced between the Os and Phillies while I say the Sox are just as likely to find a star in that Phillies package with the potential added bonus of another mlb starter because of the quantity involved. I also don’t think Holliday is a lock to be an mlb star so that’s probably where our primary disagreement lies regarding value.

This is not accurate.

Cease was originally expected to be a 1st round pick.  He tore his UCL his senior year of high school which allowed the Cubs to take him in the 6th round.  The Cubs drafted him and gave him a $1.5 million dollar signing bonus ($269,500 slot recommendation) knowing he would need TJ surgery.  The hype for Cease was always there.

At the time of the trade, Eloy was the Cubs #1 prospect and MLB’s #8 overall prospect, while Cease was the Cubs #2 prospect and MLB’s #63 overall prospect.  These trades pretty much don’t happen anymore, definitely not for a starter like Quintana who wasn’t considered to be a sure-fire ace.   Matt Rose and Bryant Flete were just additional garbage filler.

https://www.mlb.com/news/white-sox-trade-jose-quintana-for-4-players-c241975980

Edited 4 hours ago by WhiteSox2023

[southsider2k5]

18 minutes ago, Quin said:

If anything, the Sox (which includes Chris Getz!) record of developing raw talent over the past decade should encourage taking the guys who are highly ranked and close to the majors prospects over projects every single time.

An org like the Rays might have been able to develop the guys like Rutherford, Adolfo, Cespedes, Colas, Hansen, Basabe and Clarkin. Possibly have gotten more out of Burdi, Collins, Madrigal and Vaughn.

Yes - I'm aware that absolutely no org in the majors is gonna hit 100% on every prospect. But dear god, the Sox seemingly miss on every single one that they've had to develop in any capacity outside of like, Tim Anderson and Jake Burger (kinda, he took it into his own hands in 2020).

I agree with what you are saying, but the Sox roster needs to figure out a way to add about 22-23 major league calibur players if they ever want a shot at respectability.  1 for 1 doesn't help the numbersdeficit.

[bmags]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

When the Sox acquired Yoan Moncada, I’d say where he was at in his career at that point was about as perfect as a comp to where Holliday is at in his career right now. Would you agree? If Holliday has the same career Moncada has had with the Sox, and he is the sole return for Crochet, would you consider that a good trade for the Sox? 

And yes, I totally agree re: Cease. Acquiring both Eloy and Cease in the Q trade was the key to that trade. Not just acquiring the one big name guy at the time (Eloy). How would that trade be viewed today if Cease wasn’t also included as Eloy flamed out? Thus, why I’d prefer 3-4 quality prospects as the return for Crochet rather than one “can’t miss” guy in Holliday…

I'd counter that this board was pretty much in agreement that the sox should not take high schoolers because they couldn't develop them because of Courtney Hawkins, and it was mostly just ignorant of the fact that the sox weren't drafting high schoolers so the one that failed stuck out.

They finally stopped that crap and their drafting has gotten much better.

Yoan Moncada was only an oft injured but definite MLB starter, and Kopech was just a ok then dominant closer, so the white sox should never again trade for top prospects? It's a dumb idea.

I would be more open to "don't trade your everyday 3B for a 25 year old pitching prospect coming of TJS" more than Moncada.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

I'd counter that this board was pretty much in agreement that the sox should not take high schoolers because they couldn't develop them because of Courtney Hawkins, and it was mostly just ignorant of the fact that the sox weren't drafting high schoolers so the one that failed stuck out.

They finally stopped that crap and their drafting has gotten much better.

Yoan Moncada was only an oft injured but definite MLB starter, and Kopech was just a ok then dominant closer, so the white sox should never again trade for top prospects? It's a dumb idea.

I would be more open to "don't trade your everyday 3B for a 25 year old pitching prospect coming of TJS" more than Moncada.

Yea... I never said don’t trade for top prospects. No idea where you got that from. I said I’d much prefer a package of 3-4 top prospects over the 1 “can’t miss” prospect.