Look at Ray Ray Run Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 1 hour ago, bmags said: so there you go re: bannister and personnel. Yeah, and I have nothing to say about Bannister the player evaluator. That's not a role I've known him to have a lot of insight into, but the normalization/consolidation of his throwing programs throughout all levels of the minors is a big plus. Could be offset if they're asking him to do something in PE though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 7 minutes ago, bmags said: Declan cronin was pennies and they paid john brebbia $4 million. Those are the kinds of decisions the sox are constantly bad at. Bannister, and the white sox, in fact do have to be better than other teams and be the best at a few. Our pitching can develop and still be the worst in baseball. It's that pathetic attitude that has led to this organization turning to rust. John Brebbia had a ceiling of a shut-down set-up man, which he has done before, and looked like in his 6 Atlanta innings after leaving. Declan Cronin hasn't looked like that since low-A. $4 million isn't a lot to pay a guy who could be a solid go-to bullpen arm. We're playing word games over pitching development. If we have a very good guy at the top of the development ladder, that is the goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 4 minutes ago, WestEddy said: John Brebbia had a ceiling of a shut-down set-up man, which he has done before, and looked like in his 6 Atlanta innings after leaving. Declan Cronin hasn't looked like that since low-A. $4 million isn't a lot to pay a guy who could be a solid go-to bullpen arm. We're playing word games over pitching development. If we have a very good guy at the top of the development ladder, that is the goal. In SIX innings lol PD and PE should be separate areas entirely. PE's job is to identify the strengths of your teams PD (in this case, a guy like Bannister) and identify players that fit that mold. When you put PD and PE together, you get way too much noise and opinion in the way of process. Think of it like being the coach and the GM. It rarely ever works. When i hear Bannister is doing PE then PD, that gives me concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 10 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: In SIX innings lol PD and PE should be separate areas entirely. PE's job is to identify the strengths of your teams PD (in this case, a guy like Bannister) and identify players that fit that mold. When you put PD and PE together, you get way too much noise and opinion in the way of process. Think of it like being the coach and the GM. It rarely ever works. When i hear Bannister is doing PE then PD, that gives me concern. Oh, wow. You laughed at my mention of 6 innings with Atlanta. You're right that invalidates his entire career before that. Otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about. What's PE? Getz grabbed up a bunch of veteran arms to build a bullpen. I'm sure he got some input from Bannister and Katz. Bannister's worked with a bunch of players who have responded to his coaching or methods. I don't see an issue with picking the guy's brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 44 minutes ago, WestEddy said: John Brebbia had a ceiling of a shut-down set-up man, which he has done before, and looked like in his 6 Atlanta innings after leaving. Declan Cronin hasn't looked like that since low-A. $4 million isn't a lot to pay a guy who could be a solid go-to bullpen arm. We're playing word games over pitching development. If we have a very good guy at the top of the development ladder, that is the goal. this is actual a hilarious imitation of what the sox probably sounded like in their evaluation of Brebbia. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 41 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Oh, wow. You laughed at my mention of 6 innings with Atlanta. You're right that invalidates his entire career before that. Otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about. What's PE? Getz grabbed up a bunch of veteran arms to build a bullpen. I'm sure he got some input from Bannister and Katz. Bannister's worked with a bunch of players who have responded to his coaching or methods. I don't see an issue with picking the guy's brain. 6 innings does not invalidate nor validate that idea that he was some shut down set up guy. And you brought up those last 6 innings like they were important. It was a terrible thought process and Brebbia proved it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 1 hour ago, bmags said: this is actual a hilarious imitation of what the sox probably sounded like in their evaluation of Brebbia. Ho-hum. And this is actually a spot-on imitation of the dozen or so commenters who don't have an argument, and resort to mockery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 1 hour ago, WestEddy said: Oh, wow. You laughed at my mention of 6 innings with Atlanta. You're right that invalidates his entire career before that. Otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about. What's PE? Getz grabbed up a bunch of veteran arms to build a bullpen. I'm sure he got some input from Bannister and Katz. Bannister's worked with a bunch of players who have responded to his coaching or methods. I don't see an issue with picking the guy's brain. Player evaluation (PE) and player development (PD) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Player evaluation (PE) and player development (PD) Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 3 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: PD and PE should be separate areas entirely. PE's job is to identify the strengths of your teams PD (in this case, a guy like Bannister) and identify players that fit that mold. When you put PD and PE together, you get way too much noise and opinion in the way of process. Think of it like being the coach and the GM. It rarely ever works. When i hear Bannister is doing PE then PD, that gives me concern. So, based on this, are you suggesting that Player Evaluation (scouting) should also be responsible for assessing the strengths and weaknesses of your Player Development process / system? That's an interesting idea / take, and I think it makes sense. I'm not sure I agree with the idea that they must not be combined (I always got the sense that teams like Cleveland did this, or at least had a nice symbiotic relationship between the two functions), but it does make sense for your scouting department to be able to see the trends in the players they put into the system vs. the players coming out of the system. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 3 hours ago, WestEddy said: Oh, wow. You laughed at my mention of 6 innings with Atlanta. You're right that invalidates his entire career before that. Otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about. What's PE? Getz grabbed up a bunch of veteran arms to build a bullpen. I'm sure he got some input from Bannister and Katz. Bannister's worked with a bunch of players who have responded to his coaching or methods. I don't see an issue with picking the guy's brain. Player evaluation/scouting vs development/instruction... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 (edited) 1 hour ago, JoeC said: So, based on this, are you suggesting that Player Evaluation (scouting) should also be responsible for assessing the strengths and weaknesses of your Player Development process / system? That's an interesting idea / take, and I think it makes sense. I'm not sure I agree with the idea that they must not be combined (I always got the sense that teams like Cleveland did this, or at least had a nice symbiotic relationship between the two functions), but it does make sense for your scouting department to be able to see the trends in the players they put into the system vs. the players coming out of the system. Correct. And when I say combined, I don't mean they shouldn't work together. I mean someone like Bannister shouldn't be identifying players to acquire that he can maximize. It's not his job or his skill. When you allow the developers to be the shot callers, you don't protect development from its own short comings, and confirmation bias that has gotten them here. "Every guy I've gotten like this before I turned into a stud" they may think, but the key was that before they weren't the ones identifying that player and his given fit, they were given a player and got the most out of them. While these teams/segments need to understand each other inside and out, the influence they have should be mostly siloed. For example, PE may say we're loving this guy, is there any hard stop we're missing but PD should never be able to sway an actual opinion (beyond the initial understanding of the players fit with your PDs strength) on that initial evaluation and they shouldn't be the ones that trigger the deep dive. I'd argue the GMs job is to understand the strength of both and find the fits. Edited October 25 by Look at Ray Ray Run 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boopa1219 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 There is a job posting available on Fangraphs, I assume with the R/D dept https://blogs.fangraphs.com/instagraphs/job-posting-chicago-white-sox-player-development-affiliate-intern-3/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 2 hours ago, Boopa1219 said: There is a job posting available on Fangraphs, I assume with the R/D dept https://blogs.fangraphs.com/instagraphs/job-posting-chicago-white-sox-player-development-affiliate-intern-3/ More internships again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 2 hours ago, Boopa1219 said: There is a job posting available on Fangraphs, I assume with the R/D dept https://blogs.fangraphs.com/instagraphs/job-posting-chicago-white-sox-player-development-affiliate-intern-3/ Seems like a very comprehensive list of knowledge required including , knowing Spanish and moving for some $15 /hr and housing stipend job. How the hell does one go to college and understand everything listed and still be young enough to be able to work a temp job while upheaving your entire life plus part of the job application process is giving them free advice to show you know your stuff ? It doesn't even mention job benefits like healthcare. Is this really how you get quality people in R & D /Not Analytics ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 13 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Correct. And when I say combined, I don't mean they shouldn't work together. I mean someone like Bannister shouldn't be identifying players to acquire that he can maximize. It's not his job or his skill. When you allow the developers to be the shot callers, you don't protect development from its own short comings, and confirmation bias that has gotten them here. "Every guy I've gotten like this before I turned into a stud" they may think, but the key was that before they weren't the ones identifying that player and his given fit, they were given a player and got the most out of them. While these teams/segments need to understand each other inside and out, the influence they have should be mostly siloed. For example, PE may say we're loving this guy, is there any hard stop we're missing but PD should never be able to sway an actual opinion (beyond the initial understanding of the players fit with your PDs strength) on that initial evaluation and they shouldn't be the ones that trigger the deep dive. I'd argue the GMs job is to understand the strength of both and find the fits. this makes sense to me - thank you for clarifying. I think i agree with all of that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 (edited) 22 hours ago, Balta1701 said: Whether it's Thorpe or their bullpen decisions, either "they didn't actually talk to him about pitching decisions" or "they talked to him and he was on board with these ideas" or "They talked to him, he hated these ideas, and they ignored him" are the options I can come up with. None raise confidence. I don't see why Thorpe is the object of such derision not only from you but others . He had 5 straight starts as a 23yr old rookie of at least 6 innings while giving up 3 hits or less and 2 runs or less. I think that was something that no rookie had ever done before in the history of the franchise. I guess it depends on your perspective how impressive that is. I mean I see a guy who despite his youth and relative inexperience pitching against the best hitters in the world and doing better than any rookie in the history of a 125+ year old franchise in those 5 consecutive starts as a very good thing. After all the bulk of his experience the year before was in A+ ball. But maybe that's just me who truly believes that prospect talk nonsense about development not being linear so he could also have periods that weren't so good especially when those not so good results ended with a forearm flexor strain and bone spur elbow surgery. But maybe you don't like the prevailing opinions that because he lacks "stuff" that his command has to be perfect for him to succeed . I guess it's a fundamental difference on how you view prospects and development and being a pitcher vs a guy with a 95+ MPH fastball and pinpoint command needed to keep hitters honest and off your outstanding changeup. Maybe you might also feel it was more of the league figuring him out rather than injury or the variance in performance inexperienced pitchers tend to have. I suppose it's reasonable to have doubts about such things just as it is for me to see hopeful things. Edited October 26 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 21 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: I don't see why Thorpe is the object of such derision not only from you but others . He had 5 straight starts as a 23yr old rookie of at least 6 innings while giving up 3 hits or less and 2 runs or less. I think that was something that no rookie had ever done before in the history of the franchise. I guess it depends on your perspective how impressive that is. I mean I see a guy who despite his youth and relative inexperience pitching against the best hitters in the world and doing better than any rookie in the history of a 125+ year old franchise in those 5 consecutive starts as a very good thing. After all the bulk of his experience the year before was in A+ ball. But maybe that's just me who truly believes that prospect talk nonsense about development not being linear so he could also have periods that weren't so good especially when those not so good results ended with a forearm flexor strain and bone spur elbow surgery. But maybe you don't like the prevailing opinions that because he lacks "stuff" that his command has to be perfect for him to succeed . I guess it's a fundamental difference on how you view prospects and development and being a pitcher vs a guy with a 95+ MPH fastball and pinpoint command needed to keep hitters honest and off your outstanding changeup. Maybe you might also feel it was more of the league figuring him out rather than injury or the variance in performance inexperienced pitchers tend to have. I suppose it's reasonable to have doubts about such things just as it is for me to see hopeful things. Real simple. He had a .156 BABIP at the end of that series of starts. That is complete blind luck. Rick Hahn makes that mistake, believing ultra low BABIP numbers, we don’t have to. Thorpe currently doesn’t have a way to get actual outs. He doesn’t generate a lot of ground balls. His strikeout rate was 25% lower than any qualified starter in the league, and out of the bottom 5 in strikeout rate only Jose Quintana had an ERA under 5 this year. That is a huge gap to overcome. Thorpe’s strikeout rate was comparable to 46 year old Jamie Moyer’s strikeout rate, and his walk rate was 3x as high. I saw zero that suggested he’s a big league starter this year. Pitchers cannot pull off a .200 BABIP as starters. People were putting the ball in play against him hard, it just went at people. Pitchers don’t control that, it’s luck. It’s possible his numbers were affected by injury, the fact that they shut him down was about the only good sign this year because his actual performance was really bad. Maybe this was bad because of health, and that’s a way for it to improve. If he doesn’t become a fundamentally different pitcher, by either adding a solid sinker or by upping his spin rate to make people actually miss his pitchers, then maybe he can go to the bullpen and do something like Tommy Kahnle, throwing 15 straight change-up’s. But making your pitches harder to hit is a lot harder than “throwing more strikes”. A 25% increase in his K rate next year and a halving of his walk rate still leaves him likely to have an ERA in the 5s. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 On 10/26/2024 at 5:14 AM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Seems like a very comprehensive list of knowledge required including , knowing Spanish and moving for some $15 /hr and housing stipend job. How the hell does one go to college and understand everything listed and still be young enough to be able to work a temp job while upheaving your entire life plus part of the job application process is giving them free advice to show you know your stuff ? It doesn't even mention job benefits like healthcare. Is this really how you get quality people in R & D /Not Analytics ? You don't but remember this is the White Sox organization you are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 On 10/26/2024 at 6:14 AM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Seems like a very comprehensive list of knowledge required including , knowing Spanish and moving for some $15 /hr and housing stipend job. How the hell does one go to college and understand everything listed and still be young enough to be able to work a temp job while upheaving your entire life plus part of the job application process is giving them free advice to show you know your stuff ? It doesn't even mention job benefits like healthcare. Is this really how you get quality people in R & D /Not Analytics ? That’s hilarious. Looks like Getz even snuck in some of his own questions for that free advice… Identify one player the White Sox should look to acquire via trade or free agency this offseason. What would it take to acquire this player? Why do you recommend the White Sox target this player? Who is one prospect outside MLB.com’s Top 100 that you believe is underrated? Provide a brief scouting report. In terms of analytics and technology, where can MLB organizations look to gain a competitive edge in the coming years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boopa1219 Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 On 10/25/2024 at 10:40 AM, Y2Jimmy0 said: I don't think I've celebrated Chris Getz. I just don't knee jerk react to everything. He's made some very questionable trades but I think the front office hires have made sense and revamping the way organization operates makes sense as well. Ultimately though, they need to find good players. I'm aware. Brian Bannister lobbied heavily for Drew Thorpe from what I understand. He'll be a significant part of their rotation moving forward. Bannister was also very involved in the draft from what was said by the org and reporters. I wonder if he’ll be that involved with intl players. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted October 28 Author Share Posted October 28 And we value bad luck as a franchise. It's the cornerstone of our strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 9 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: You don't but remember this is the White Sox organization you are talking about. This is an industry-wide problem and not at all unique to the White Sox. Professional sports in general pay less for the same roles, and still have a lot of unpaid or low-paid entry level jobs required to get your foot in the door. This basically gatekeeps the industry to only people who come from money because people who don't, can't afford to eat s%*# for 10 years in hopes of making one of the few properly paid jobs. Analytics is one of the craziest examples of this. Why would you be a quant in baseball unless you loved baseball and were rich already? You make about half of what other industries would pay you, and the job security is complete garbage. There are a few teams that are more competitive but they still bank on the value of "working in baseball" when they send out offers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 10 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: You don't but remember this is the White Sox organization you are talking about. Others who have jobs in baseball can comment, but entry level jobs in baseball are TONS of work, horrible hours and somewhere between low and no pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 3 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: This is an industry-wide problem and not at all unique to the White Sox. Professional sports in general pay less for the same roles, and still have a lot of unpaid or low-paid entry level jobs required to get your foot in the door. This basically gatekeeps the industry to only people who come from money because people who don't, can't afford to eat s%*# for 10 years in hopes of making one of the few properly paid jobs. Analytics is one of the craziest examples of this. Why would you be a quant in baseball unless you loved baseball and were rich already? You make about half of what other industries would pay you, and the job security is complete garbage. There are a few teams that are more competitive but they still bank on the value of "working in baseball" when they send out offers. Perhaps the White Sox for once should try to "break" the trend. It may lead to getting very valuable talent and lead to on-field advantages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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