One Obvious Move Completed - Analytics Overhauled

[almagest]

7 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Perhaps the White Sox for once should try to "break" the trend. It may lead to getting very valuable talent and lead to on-field advantages. 

It could be a huge competitive advantage if they paid normal industry rates. I wonder if there's collusion amongst teams on this, though.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Others who have jobs in baseball can comment, but entry level jobs in baseball are TONS of work, horrible hours and somewhere between low and no pay.

For example, the pay was $500 and an apartment to work for the Red Sox back nearly thirty years ago...as an intern out of grad school from a competitive sports management graduate program.

Turning that down to work for a minor league team with a better title and the ability to generate more salary through sales of tickets, event sponsorships, and billboard and program ads was the wrong choice now looking back.

Edited October 28 by caulfield12

[nrockway]

10 hours ago, almagest said:

It could be a huge competitive advantage if they paid normal industry rates. I wonder if there's collusion amongst teams on this, though.

Interesting idea re: collusion. My thinking is that we overexaggerate the importance of "analytics" and it doesn't impact winning as much as we think. I'm pretty sure the main "projection" Fangraphs and ESPN use was developed by some high school students. Why isn't there an army of PhD students and post-docs producing baseball advanced stats for free? My thinking is that there isn't much there. Which is to say, I sort of doubt that if teams hired a team of PhD statisticians, they would be able to develop any useful and novel metrics. I think a team of scouts with GEDs are probably better equipped at the job.

There is definitely use in visualizing data for easy digestion by players and staff, ie developing hot/cold zone charts for hitters or showing the trajectory of various pitch types...but that isn't highly-paid work. I don't know what the industry standard is, but I assume it's low.

Then again, there is relatively new data to look at...the Statcast cameras...that could probably tell you a lot. That's probably the competitive advantage, making that data into something useful. I assume the product that Statcast sells already does that though. And does it tell you anything that a hitting coach couldn't? What's the salary of the guy who interprets Statcast data? I can't imagine it's super high.

I think biomechanics...physics generally... and kinesiology are probably more useful fields to apply to baseball than statistics TBH. I also like the Tom House approach of having an illustrious baseball career then doing a PhD and applying it to coaching. An 'analytics' guy like that probably commands a high salary.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

12 minutes ago, nrockway said:

Interesting idea re: collusion. My thinking is that we overexaggerate the importance of "analytics" and it doesn't impact winning as much as we think. I'm pretty sure the main "projection" Fangraphs and ESPN use was developed by some high school students. Why isn't there an army of PhD students and post-docs producing baseball advanced stats for free? My thinking is that there isn't much there. Which is to say, I sort of doubt that if teams hired a team of PhD statisticians, they would be able to develop any useful and novel metrics. I think a team of scouts with GEDs are probably better equipped at the job.

There is definitely use in visualizing data for easy digestion by players and staff, ie developing hot/cold zone charts for hitters or showing the trajectory of various pitch types...but that isn't highly-paid work. I don't know what the industry standard is, but I assume it's low.

Then again, there is relatively new data to look at...the Statcast cameras...that could probably tell you a lot. That's probably the competitive advantage, making that data into something useful. I assume the product that Statcast sells already does that though. And does it tell you anything that a hitting coach couldn't? What's the salary of the guy who interprets Statcast data? I can't imagine it's super high.

I think biomechanics...physics generally... and kinesiology are probably more useful fields to apply to baseball than statistics TBH. I also like the Tom House approach of having an illustrious baseball career then doing a PhD and applying it to coaching. An 'analytics' guy like that probably commands a high salary.

Amazing what you think analyst's do. 

[nrockway]

11 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Amazing what you think analyst's do. 

what do I think they do? 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

13 hours ago, nrockway said:

what do I think they do? 

You cited things at the end of your paragraph that are more valuable than analytics/data when those things themselves are valuable because of the analytical outputs they derive.

[kitekrazy]

15 hours ago, nrockway said:

what do I think they do? 

Live and die by them.  Sometimes gut instinct and watching a player sometimes works better than a stat sheet.

[kitekrazy]

We somehow think this is the holy grail but even the bad teams do the "right" things.

You still need gifted people in decision making and development.  Getz is not one of them.  His only skill might be the JR listens to him. He is the Grifol of GMs.  Only the White Sox promote a person who failed in their previous role.

[Dominikk85]

More important than having a top notch analytics group is having structures that implement the findings.

 

There are 1000s of great baseball analysts out there who can do great work. There are still differences in quality of analytics but the key point is how it is implemented in scouting and coaching.

What makes the really good orgs good is not that they are super cutting edge but that they are very good in communicating and implementing it across the whole Organisation.

I read some posts by drivelines Kyle boddy a couple years ago where he claimed in some orgs reports by the analytics department are put into the bin without being read. Or slightly better but still bad others where the reports are being read and then guy reading it says "cool, that's interesting, now what should I do with it?"

 

What will make or break the sox is not hiring a couple smart guys but having leadership implementing structures that forces everyone to actually implement the stuff.

The sox did hire some smart guys in the past like for example Ryan Johansen who is a biomechanics expert but it clearly wasn't implemented as many of the sox hitters had a groundball, opposite field focused approach with a lot of chase.

When the sox want to do it better this time they need to create better implementation structures and remove structures where old school coaches are laughing off analytics and just continue their way

Edited October 31 by Dominikk85

[nrockway]

On 10/29/2024 at 11:58 AM, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You cited things at the end of your paragraph that are more valuable than analytics/data when those things themselves are valuable because of the analytical outputs they derive.

I didn't cite a fuckin thing

[Dominikk85]

The rich get richer, dodgers hired the probably best public pitching analyst max Bay (guy who modeled stuff + for eno sarris)

 

https://x.com/choice_fielder/status/1853480735770050680?t=zVpZ34k9CzB5J4aka2ZNFQ&s=19

[WhiteSox2023]

41 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

The rich get richer, dodgers hired the probably best public pitching analyst max Bay (guy who modeled stuff + for eno sarris)

 

https://x.com/choice_fielder/status/1853480735770050680?t=zVpZ34k9CzB5J4aka2ZNFQ&s=19

But does he know how to use the latest data modeling technology like our guys?  Just you wait and see…

[greg775]

I didn't want to start a new thread on this lest anybody get mad, but I often get blasted on here for my old-school lamentations about the demise of baseball. I challenge you all to listen to former White Sox great Goose Gossage and listen to his tearing apart analytics and the ruination of a once great sport. In fact I'd like to say I'm in good company with Goose Gossage since he's basically listing all the reasons greg despises baseball. I love the way Goose rips the 'five inning guys.' Caveat: Bad language in the video. ... What do you think about Goose's arguments/my arguments?

 

Edited Tuesday at 05:06 PM by greg775

[Kyyle23]

Sorry that math is hard for you 

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

I didn't want to start a new thread on this lest anybody get mad, but I often get blasted on here for my old-school lamentations about the demise of baseball. I challenge you all to listen to former White Sox great Goose Gossage and listen to his tearing apart analytics and the ruination of a once great sport. In fact I'd like to say I'm in good company with Goose Gossage since he's basically listing all the reasons greg despises baseball. I love the way Goose rips the 'five inning guys.' Caveat: Bad language in the video. ... What do you think about Goose's arguments/my arguments?

 

Didn't watch, yet, but:

The investment in the greatest players on Earth is such that you can't just grind them down, throwing them 350 innings a season. 

In the age of increased tech, discovering spin rates, bat speed, EV and such is inevitable. That data has to be made available to the most competitive players on Earth to keep up with each other. 

Unless you want the accessibility of MLB to rival Australian Rules Football, or Scottish Shin Kicking championships, enough entities have to be making enough money off of it for baseball to cut through the fog of entertainment options, and make itself easily accessible to you. In doing that, teams have to create efficiencies to keep the best players on the field, and maintain a modicum of competitive balance. 

Edited Tuesday at 06:12 PM by WestEddy

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

I didn't want to start a new thread on this lest anybody get mad, but I often get blasted on here for my old-school lamentations about the demise of baseball. I challenge you all to listen to former White Sox great Goose Gossage and listen to his tearing apart analytics and the ruination of a once great sport. In fact I'd like to say I'm in good company with Goose Gossage since he's basically listing all the reasons greg despises baseball. I love the way Goose rips the 'five inning guys.' Caveat: Bad language in the video. ... What do you think about Goose's arguments/my arguments?

 

You get a choice of 100% for shorter periods of time, or a lesser percentage for a longer period of time.  I don't know why the Boomer crowd gets so bothered by this, but it is physiological fact.  You can't run a marathon at the same pace you run the 100 meter dash.  Why do people think you can pitch at a full out rate for 200 plus innings?  That's why their bodies are breaking down.  Besides Gossage was a reliever himself.  He should understand this better than most.

[Iwritecode]

I've often been curious about (and have never found a good answer) if the length of MLB player careers has increased over time. 

Like on average, did the guys from the 20s and 30s have shorter careers due to over-usage vs. the current players?

Even trying to find the average length of today's players is difficult as there are varying answers depending on where you look and how they manipulate the data.

[greg775]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Didn't watch, yet, but:

The investment in the greatest players on Earth is such that you can't just grind them down, throwing them 350 innings a season. 

In the age of increased tech, discovering spin rates, bat speed, EV and such is inevitable. That data has to be made available to the most competitive players on Earth to keep up with each other. 

Unless you want the accessibility of MLB to rival Australian Rules Football, or Scottish Shin Kicking championships, enough entities have to be making enough money off of it for baseball to cut through the fog of entertainment options, and make itself easily accessible to you. In doing that, teams have to create efficiencies to keep the best players on the field, and maintain a modicum of competitive balance. 

Nope. I won't use Goose's cuss words but listen to at least the first eight minutes please. He tears apart the modern athlete and pitcher and obliterates the commissioner and all analytics. He talks about how baseball pitchers train wrong, lift too many weights. He laments it all. And despises Yankees' Cashman and analytics. He basically said all players are very soft. ... When you listen to Goose you will hear greg and I'm often lambasted on here as not having a clue. He also repeats my mantra of WHO IS GONNA MAKE THE HALL OF FAME IN THE FUTURE?? You'd think I was Goose with similar arguments. Apologies from anybody coming? I got a Hall of Famer and Sox great on my side.

Edited Tuesday at 08:33 PM by greg775

[Kyyle23]

7 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Nope. I won't use Goose's cuss words but listen to at least the first eight minutes please. He tears apart the modern athlete and pitcher and obliterates the commissioner and all analytics. He talks about how baseball pitchers train wrong, lift too many weights. He laments it all. And despises Yankees' Cashman and analytics. He basically said all players are very soft. ... When you listen to Goose you will hear greg and I'm often lambasted on here as not having a clue. He also repeats my mantra of WHO IS GONNA MAKE THE HALL OF FAME IN THE FUTURE?? You'd think I was Goose with similar arguments. Apologies from anybody coming? I got a Hall of Famer and Sox great on my side.

Nobody is apologizing to you because one guy who retired 30 years ago agrees with you that we should ignore current health trends.  Also nobody is gonna apologize because the best teams in the league use all these fancy confusing numbers to their advantage!  Can you believe it??

[Lyle Moooton]

33 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Nobody is apologizing to you because one guy who retired 30 years ago agrees with you that we should ignore current health trends.  Also nobody is gonna apologize because the best teams in the league use all these fancy confusing numbers to their advantage!  Can you believe it??

Yeah that’s just it. They work. I think the teams that win year in and out have proven that. I don’t like the fact they work - I also preferred the game before they were around so much - but that doesn’t change the reality. So either keep up or get left behind. 

[southsider2k5]

44 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Nope. I won't use Goose's cuss words but listen to at least the first eight minutes please. He tears apart the modern athlete and pitcher and obliterates the commissioner and all analytics. He talks about how baseball pitchers train wrong, lift too many weights. He laments it all. And despises Yankees' Cashman and analytics. He basically said all players are very soft. ... When you listen to Goose you will hear greg and I'm often lambasted on here as not having a clue. He also repeats my mantra of WHO IS GONNA MAKE THE HALL OF FAME IN THE FUTURE?? You'd think I was Goose with similar arguments. Apologies from anybody coming? I got a Hall of Famer and Sox great on my side.

What if I told you that statistical changes have happened over the history of baseball and the Hall of Fame adjusted to those changes?  The game of baseball in 1901 is not the same game we play today in 2024.

[MEANS]

former White Sox great....29-36....cause wins matter...right Greg?

[Iwritecode]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

He talks about how baseball pitchers train wrong, lift too many weights. He laments it all. And despises Yankees' Cashman and analytics. 

The New York Yankees? The team that has been in the playoffs 25 times in the past 30 years? Including 5 championships and 8 WS appearances?

Yea, they are definitely doing it wrong. LOL

[JoeC]

5 hours ago, greg775 said:

I didn't want to start a new thread on this lest anybody get mad, but I often get blasted on here for my old-school lamentations about the demise of baseball. I challenge you all to listen to former White Sox great Goose Gossage and listen to his tearing apart analytics and the ruination of a once great sport. In fact I'd like to say I'm in good company with Goose Gossage since he's basically listing all the reasons greg despises baseball. I love the way Goose rips the 'five inning guys.' Caveat: Bad language in the video. ... What do you think about Goose's arguments/my arguments?

 

Tell me, Greg. Who have the Yankees been losing to all these years, and what strategies have THEY employed?

Again, this is all ironic coming from a guy who made a career out of playing a position that, 30 years earlier, would have been considered evidence of a failed career.

[greg775]

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

Nobody is apologizing to you because one guy who retired 30 years ago agrees with you that we should ignore current health trends.  Also nobody is gonna apologize because the best teams in the league use all these fancy confusing numbers to their advantage!  Can you believe it??

You guys are a tough crowd. This is a Hall of Fame reliever and his thoughts mirror mine. Ever think current health trends are caused by changing the methods that were used in Goose's era? At least I have a Hall of Famer backing my position universally mocked on the board here. Next thing you know somebody famous will say Tim Anderson shoulda been a catcher (good arm, very inconsistent at SS). I'm just saying I'm not as stupid as many think I am and this Gossage tape proves it.