One Obvious Move Completed - Analytics Overhauled

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

so there you go re: bannister and personnel.

Yeah, and I have nothing to say about Bannister the player evaluator. That's not a role I've known him to have a lot of insight into, but the normalization/consolidation of his throwing programs throughout all levels of the minors is a big plus. Could be offset if they're asking him to do something in PE though.

[WestEddy]

7 minutes ago, bmags said:

Declan cronin was pennies and they paid john brebbia $4 million. Those are the kinds of decisions the sox are constantly bad at.

Bannister, and the white sox, in fact do have to be better than other teams and be the best at a few. Our pitching can develop and still be the worst in baseball.

It's that pathetic attitude that has led to this organization turning to rust.

John Brebbia had a ceiling of a shut-down set-up man, which he has done before, and looked like in his 6 Atlanta innings after leaving. Declan Cronin hasn't looked like that since low-A. $4 million isn't a lot to pay a guy who could be a solid go-to bullpen arm. 

We're playing word games over pitching development. If we have a very good guy at the top of the development ladder, that is the goal. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

John Brebbia had a ceiling of a shut-down set-up man, which he has done before, and looked like in his 6 Atlanta innings after leaving. Declan Cronin hasn't looked like that since low-A. $4 million isn't a lot to pay a guy who could be a solid go-to bullpen arm. 

We're playing word games over pitching development. If we have a very good guy at the top of the development ladder, that is the goal. 

In SIX innings lol

PD and PE should be separate areas entirely. PE's job is to identify the strengths of your teams PD (in this case, a guy like Bannister) and identify players that fit that mold.

When you put PD and PE together, you get way too much noise and opinion in the way of process. Think of it like being the coach and the GM. It rarely ever works. 

When i hear Bannister is doing PE then PD, that gives me concern. 

[WestEddy]

10 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

In SIX innings lol

PD and PE should be separate areas entirely. PE's job is to identify the strengths of your teams PD (in this case, a guy like Bannister) and identify players that fit that mold.

When you put PD and PE together, you get way too much noise and opinion in the way of process. Think of it like being the coach and the GM. It rarely ever works. 

When i hear Bannister is doing PE then PD, that gives me concern. 

Oh, wow. You laughed at my mention of 6 innings with Atlanta. You're right that invalidates his entire career before that. 

Otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about. What's PE? Getz grabbed up a bunch of veteran arms to build a bullpen. I'm sure he got some input from Bannister and Katz. Bannister's worked with a bunch of players who have responded to his coaching or methods. I don't see an issue with picking the guy's brain. 

[bmags]

44 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

John Brebbia had a ceiling of a shut-down set-up man, which he has done before, and looked like in his 6 Atlanta innings after leaving. Declan Cronin hasn't looked like that since low-A. $4 million isn't a lot to pay a guy who could be a solid go-to bullpen arm. 

We're playing word games over pitching development. If we have a very good guy at the top of the development ladder, that is the goal. 

this is actual a hilarious imitation of what the sox probably sounded like in their evaluation of Brebbia.

[Kyyle23]

41 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Oh, wow. You laughed at my mention of 6 innings with Atlanta. You're right that invalidates his entire career before that. 

Otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about. What's PE? Getz grabbed up a bunch of veteran arms to build a bullpen. I'm sure he got some input from Bannister and Katz. Bannister's worked with a bunch of players who have responded to his coaching or methods. I don't see an issue with picking the guy's brain. 

6 innings does not invalidate nor validate that idea that he was some shut down set up guy.  And you brought up those last 6 innings like they were important.  It was a terrible thought process and Brebbia proved it

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

this is actual a hilarious imitation of what the sox probably sounded like in their evaluation of Brebbia.

Ho-hum. And this is actually a spot-on imitation of the dozen or so commenters who don't have an argument, and resort to mockery. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

Oh, wow. You laughed at my mention of 6 innings with Atlanta. You're right that invalidates his entire career before that. 

Otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about. What's PE? Getz grabbed up a bunch of veteran arms to build a bullpen. I'm sure he got some input from Bannister and Katz. Bannister's worked with a bunch of players who have responded to his coaching or methods. I don't see an issue with picking the guy's brain. 

Player evaluation (PE) and player development (PD)

[WestEddy]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Player evaluation (PE) and player development (PD)

Thanks.

[JoeC]

3 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

PD and PE should be separate areas entirely. PE's job is to identify the strengths of your teams PD (in this case, a guy like Bannister) and identify players that fit that mold.

When you put PD and PE together, you get way too much noise and opinion in the way of process. Think of it like being the coach and the GM. It rarely ever works. 

When i hear Bannister is doing PE then PD, that gives me concern. 

So, based on this, are you suggesting that Player Evaluation (scouting) should also be responsible for assessing the strengths and weaknesses of your Player Development process / system? That's an interesting idea / take, and I think it makes sense.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that they must not be combined (I always got the sense that teams like Cleveland did this, or at least had a nice symbiotic relationship between the two functions), but it does make sense for your scouting department to be able to see the trends in the players they put into the system vs. the players coming out of the system.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Oh, wow. You laughed at my mention of 6 innings with Atlanta. You're right that invalidates his entire career before that. 

Otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about. What's PE? Getz grabbed up a bunch of veteran arms to build a bullpen. I'm sure he got some input from Bannister and Katz. Bannister's worked with a bunch of players who have responded to his coaching or methods. I don't see an issue with picking the guy's brain. 

Player evaluation/scouting vs development/instruction...

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, JoeC said:

So, based on this, are you suggesting that Player Evaluation (scouting) should also be responsible for assessing the strengths and weaknesses of your Player Development process / system? That's an interesting idea / take, and I think it makes sense.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that they must not be combined (I always got the sense that teams like Cleveland did this, or at least had a nice symbiotic relationship between the two functions), but it does make sense for your scouting department to be able to see the trends in the players they put into the system vs. the players coming out of the system.

Correct. And when I say combined, I don't mean they shouldn't work together. I mean someone like Bannister shouldn't be identifying players to acquire that he can maximize. It's not his job or his skill. 

When you allow the developers to be the shot callers, you don't protect development from its own short comings, and confirmation bias that has gotten them here.

"Every guy I've gotten like this before I turned into a stud" they may think, but the key was that before they weren't the ones identifying that player and his given fit, they were given a player and got the most out of them.

While these teams/segments need to understand each other inside and out, the influence they have should be mostly siloed. For example, PE may say we're loving this guy, is there any hard stop we're missing but PD should never be able to sway an actual opinion (beyond the initial understanding of the players fit with your PDs strength) on that initial evaluation and they shouldn't be the ones that trigger the deep dive. I'd argue the GMs job is to understand the strength of both and find the fits.

Edited 6 hours ago by Look at Ray Ray Run