One Obvious Move Completed - Analytics Overhauled

[greg775]

51 minutes ago, MEANS said:

former White Sox great....29-36....cause wins matter...right Greg?

Goose said in the tape there will be no more Hall of Fame pitchers cause of lack of wins when you only go five. Again, my opinion supported by a Hall of Famer.

[Snopek]

5 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Goose said in the tape there will be no more Hall of Fame pitchers cause of lack of wins when you only go five. Again, my opinion supported by a Hall of Famer.

The criteria for Hall of Fame pitchers will evolve along with the game. Time passes, things change. Such is life.

[WhiteSox2023]

10 minutes ago, Snopek said:

The criteria for Hall of Fame pitchers will evolve along with the game. Time passes, things change. Such is life.

Exactly.  He will be proven wrong in very little time.

[greg775]

8 hours ago, Snopek said:

The criteria for Hall of Fame pitchers will evolve along with the game. Time passes, things change. Such is life.

I dunno bout that. Starters: You have to agree 5 innings is a long outing nowadays. That leaves 4 innings where a LOT can and does happen. So the best starters still get very few wins. W/L meaningless. So that leaves K's. Frankly the five inning wonders all are gonna strike out a TON of batters. Hence a zillion pitchers with a lot of strikeouts. That means nobody outshines anybody else. 10 strikeouts to 12 in five innings will be average to decent. ... Now middle relievers that go one or two innings. Hall of Fame consideration LOL. Finally the guys who work the 8th and 9th. Roles will change with different guys on staffs closing, meaning 20-30 saves a season will be the upper echelon of guys. Not exactly Bruce Sutter territory.

Let's face it. Bye bye pitchers for the Hall cept for a few current guys who only recently joined the 5-inning club.

[caulfield12]

5 hours ago, greg775 said:

I dunno bout that. Starters: You have to agree 5 innings is a long outing nowadays. That leaves 4 innings where a LOT can and does happen. So the best starters still get very few wins. W/L meaningless. So that leaves K's. Frankly the five inning wonders all are gonna strike out a TON of batters. Hence a zillion pitchers with a lot of strikeouts. That means nobody outshines anybody else. 10 strikeouts to 12 in five innings will be average to decent. ... Now middle relievers that go one or two innings. Hall of Fame consideration LOL. Finally the guys who work the 8th and 9th. Roles will change with different guys on staffs closing, meaning 20-30 saves a season will be the upper echelon of guys. Not exactly Bruce Sutter territory.

Let's face it. Bye bye pitchers for the Hall cept for a few current guys who only recently joined the 5-inning club.

Kenley Jansen Hader and Kimbrel are the only relievers that are possibilities…maybe Edwin Diaz in 3-5 more years.

[Kyyle23]

lol yes, the hall of fame will only contain position players going forward.  So true 

gonna put this on the wall of awesome things, next to “Tim Anderson - Starting Catcher” and “Yasiel Puig - best centerfield the world has ever seen playing right field”

[WestEddy]

5 hours ago, greg775 said:

I dunno bout that. Starters: You have to agree 5 innings is a long outing nowadays. That leaves 4 innings where a LOT can and does happen. So the best starters still get very few wins. W/L meaningless. So that leaves K's. Frankly the five inning wonders all are gonna strike out a TON of batters. Hence a zillion pitchers with a lot of strikeouts. That means nobody outshines anybody else. 10 strikeouts to 12 in five innings will be average to decent. ... Now middle relievers that go one or two innings. Hall of Fame consideration LOL. Finally the guys who work the 8th and 9th. Roles will change with different guys on staffs closing, meaning 20-30 saves a season will be the upper echelon of guys. Not exactly Bruce Sutter territory.

Let's face it. Bye bye pitchers for the Hall cept for a few current guys who only recently joined the 5-inning club.

And there will never be Cy Young awards given, again. Everyone will just lay on the ground and cry at awards time. 

[Snopek]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

And there will never be Cy Young awards given, again. Everyone will just lay on the ground and cry at awards time. 

Passan: “BREAKING: For 18th consecutive season, the Cy Young award goes to: Nobody.”

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, Snopek said:

Passan: “BREAKING: For 18th consecutive season, the Cy Young award goes to: Nobody.”

Personally, the game went to hell for me when ballparks put up outfield walls, and killed the triple. 

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Personally, the game went to hell for me when ballparks put up outfield walls, and killed the triple. 

Don't get me started on the home run.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

lol yes, the hall of fame will only contain position playera going forward.  So true 

gonna put this on the wall of awesome things, next to “Tim Anderson - Starting Catcher” and “Yasiel Puig - best centerfield the world has ever seen playing right field”

Tim Anderson, 31, career fWAR 17.5

Yasiel Puig, 33, career fWAR 19.6

RIP

Rizzo 35.7, Bryant 29.7, Baez 23.7 Andrew Vaughn 1.7

Shohei Ohtani, 30, fWAR 28.6 

[Kyyle23]

15 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Tim Anderson, 31, career fWAR 17.5

Yasiel Puig, 33, career fWAR 19.6

RIP

Rizzo 35.7, Bryant 29.7, Baez 23.7 Andrew Vaughn 1.7

Shohei Ohtani, 30, fWAR 28.6 

Better watch out with that Andrew Vaughn WAR you might get oldSox in here complaining about how bad Rizzo is

[Kyyle23]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Personally, the game went to hell for me when ballparks put up outfield walls, and killed the triple. 

Honestly we need more ballparks like the polo grounds.  Give us 700 foot from the diamond centerfield walls 

[almagest]

Personally, I preferred baseball post civil war:

 

[Snopek]

On second thought, I think the Cy Young award will just be honorarily given to Goose Gossage each year.

And by Cy Young award I mean Goose Gossage award.

[WestEddy]

12 minutes ago, Snopek said:

On second thought, I think the Cy Young award will just be honorarily given to Goose Gossage each year.

And by Cy Young award I mean Goose Gossage award.

Renamed "The No-p*****s Award".

[greg775]

7 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

lol yes, the hall of fame will only contain position players going forward.  So true 

gonna put this on the wall of awesome things, next to “Tim Anderson - Starting Catcher” and “Yasiel Puig - best centerfield the world has ever seen playing right field”

Do you at least agree there will be no reasonable criteria for the 5-inning wonders, the starters? W/L? No way. K's? Why, all starters have the great heater and cutter which means they ALL will be the same strikeout artists. ERA to be the Hall standard? Please. Why can nobody answer my questions.

[greg775]

7 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

lol yes, the hall of fame will only contain position players going forward.  So true 

gonna put this on the wall of awesome things, next to “Tim Anderson - Starting Catcher” and “Yasiel Puig - best centerfield the world has ever seen playing right field”

Hmmm, Anderson's career is over at a young age. Was he a reliable SS? No. He was far from a vaccuum at SS. Catcher? Uh he had a good arm, checks that box. He was similar height and wt to other catchers. Check that box. Yes IMO he was a prime candidate to be a catcher. He was a failure at SS. Botched too many routine plays while occasionally making the spectacular.

[WestEddy]

12 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Do you at least agree there will be no reasonable criteria for the 5-inning wonders, the starters? W/L? No way. K's? Why, all starters have the great heater and cutter which means they ALL will be the same strikeout artists. ERA to be the Hall standard? Please. Why can nobody answer my questions.

The Hall of Fame isn't just about counting stats. Don Sutton got in through his 300 Wins and 3000 Strikeouts, and he was a pretty ordinary "good" pitcher for 23 years. He wasn't one of the greats. Cy Youngs and annual counting stat, top 10 finishes are a good place to start for pitchers. 

And you keep talking about "5-inning wonders". Most of the top pitchers in the game regularly go 6-7 innings in most of their starts. 

Edited 20 hours ago by WestEddy

[greg775]

10 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

The Hall of Fame isn't just about counting stats. Don Sutton got in through his 300 Wins and 3000 Strikeouts, and he was a pretty ordinary "good" pitcher for 23 years. He wasn't one of the greats. Cy Youngs and annual counting stat, top 10 finishes are a good place to start for pitchers. 

And you keep talking about "5-inning wonders". Most of the top pitchers in the game regularly go 6-7 innings in most of their starts. 

A Hall of Famer in Gossage referred to them as the five inning guys. .. And 300 wins is a great standard. Pitchers won't sniff that.

[RegionSox]

Gossage also averaged less than 2 innings an appearance so who is he to criticize them for 5 innings

Edited 20 hours ago by RegionSox

[Kyyle23]

35 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Do you at least agree there will be no reasonable criteria for the 5-inning wonders, the starters? W/L? No way. K's? Why, all starters have the great heater and cutter which means they ALL will be the same strikeout artists. ERA to be the Hall standard? Please. Why can nobody answer my questions.

People answer your questions, they have for the entire time you have been on this site.  You don’t like the answers so you rephrase the question and act like nobody answered it

all of the above is nonsense and none of it I agree with.  You have absolutely no idea of the average workload of a starter and all you do is cry about 5 inning starters.

who.  Fucking.  Cares.  If you win while making sure your pitcher remains healthy for his tenure on the team, it doesn’t matter.  You want to know why guys aren’t pitching complete games and 250 innings anymore?  Because it ruined their careers.  All this special health focus and plans and everything that you hate was born because players were sick of losing their fastball at age 28 because they are throwing too much 

Goose is one hall of fame player with an opinion.  He is not the standard bearer of opinions from the hall of fame 

[WestEddy]

21 minutes ago, greg775 said:

A Hall of Famer in Gossage referred to them as the five inning guys. .. And 300 wins is a great standard. Pitchers won't sniff that.

Nobody's going to sniff 300 triples, either. The game changes. Gossage was a p**** who couldn't start 41 games and throw 360 innings a year. He's nobody to talk. 

[southsider2k5]

43 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Do you at least agree there will be no reasonable criteria for the 5-inning wonders, the starters? W/L? No way. K's? Why, all starters have the great heater and cutter which means they ALL will be the same strikeout artists. ERA to be the Hall standard? Please. Why can nobody answer my questions.

Are we just going to ignore the fact that Gossage himself was a failed starter who excelled as a reliever to the point he made the Hall of Fame?

[Kyyle23]

26 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Are we just going to ignore the fact that Gossage himself was a failed starter who excelled as a reliever to the point he made the Hall of Fame?

Well, if it is against the point that he is trying to make, then yes