Dick Allen, Tommy John up for HOF Consideration

[JoeC]

7 hours ago, greg775 said:

225 wins will not get Greinke in unless a ton of starters in the 200-220 range get in before him. No way on Scherzer at 216 wins. And no way on Verlander at 260.

You do realize the Hall of Fame's standards, generally speaking, are greatness in comparison to your era's peers, right?

That's why you have guys like Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas, and Trevor Hoffman in the Hall. Back when they were playing, there was still a lot of debate over if they deserved to be in the Hall because of their positions (DH = failed fielder; CL / RP = failed starter).

The Hall's standards evolve with the game, so the whole "you need (x) wins to get in the Hall" is an extremely outdated notion.

[Quin]

13 minutes ago, JoeC said:

You do realize the Hall of Fame's standards, generally speaking, are greatness in comparison to your era's peers, right?

That's why you have guys like Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas, and Trevor Hoffman in the Hall. Back when they were playing, there was still a lot of debate over if they deserved to be in the Hall because of their positions (DH = failed fielder; CL / RP = failed starter).

The Hall's standards evolve with the game, so the whole "you need (x) wins to get in the Hall" is an extremely outdated notion.

There's also a lot of guys in the Hall without 300 wins in eras where it was "easier" to get it

https://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_pitching.shtml

 

[Falstaff]

In 1963 Dick Allen was the first black professional baseball player in the state of Arkansas. This might sound unbelievable but add in he did this at the height of the Civil Rights Movement.  If you want to look at Allen's career stats and discount him because he didn't hit 500 homers or 3,000 hits, I think you have to understand the struggles he went through in Arkansas and then Philly for being born black and how that impacted hiss baseball career.

if I had a vote Dick Allen would have already been in the HoF.

Dick Allen's Journey - BallNine

Edited November 5 by Falstaff

[WestEddy]

3 hours ago, Falstaff said:

In 1963 Dick Allen was the first black professional baseball player in the state of Arkansas. This might sound unbelievable but add in he did this at the height of the Civil Rights Movement.  If you want to look at Allen's career stats and discount him because he didn't hit 500 homers or 3,000 hits, I think you have to understand the struggles he went through in Arkansas and then Philly for being born black and how that impacted hiss baseball career.

if I had a vote Dick Allen would have already been in the HoF.

Dick Allen's Journey - BallNine

I seem to remember reading that as the Phillies fell out of first place in 1964, Dick Allen became a focus of the press, even though the guy hit .419/.471/.710 from 9/18 through the end of the season. 

[FloydBannister1983]

16 hours ago, flavum said:

Yes, Cole has won a Cy-last year. Couple 2nds too. On the Hall of Fame highway.

My bad.  Maybe he is in then.  I didn’t know he won last year.  I remembered Verlander beating him out a couple years ago.

[FloydBannister1983]

15 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Compare to Pettite pre-steroids...who earned so much of his reputation in the post-season.

I would put Cole ahead of him, but obviously he needs to go for another five years at least.

I guess I’ve just blacked out on Cole after 2019 World Series.

[FloydBannister1983]

6 hours ago, JoeC said:

You do realize the Hall of Fame's standards, generally speaking, are greatness in comparison to your era's peers, right?

That's why you have guys like Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas, and Trevor Hoffman in the Hall. Back when they were playing, there was still a lot of debate over if they deserved to be in the Hall because of their positions (DH = failed fielder; CL / RP = failed starter).

The Hall's standards evolve with the game, so the whole "you need (x) wins to get in the Hall" is an extremely outdated notion.

Agree with what you say but it sucks.  You’re going to see guys with 150 wins and no shutouts in the Hall of Fame and nobody will be able to figure out why unless they have a computer in front of them.

I hate how the pitching game has evolved.  One of my best memories was Jack Morris and John Smoltz in Game 7, 0-0 in the tenth inning.  Something that will never, ever happen again.  No memorable games.  “Hey remember we saw that pitcher’s duel with four guys from the home team and three from the visiting team?  That was great.”  Ugh.

You are 100% right, it just sucks.

[FloydBannister1983]

14 hours ago, greg775 said:

225 wins will not get Greinke in unless a ton of starters in the 200-220 range get in before him. No way on Scherzer at 216 wins. And no way on Verlander at 260.

Scherzer and Verlander have won three Cy Young awards a piece.  Only four pitchers have won more.  WTF?

[greg775]

9 hours ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

Agree with what you say but it sucks.  You’re going to see guys with 150 wins and no shutouts in the Hall of Fame and nobody will be able to figure out why unless they have a computer in front of them.

I hate how the pitching game has evolved.  One of my best memories was Jack Morris and John Smoltz in Game 7, 0-0 in the tenth inning.  Something that will never, ever happen again.  No memorable games.  “Hey remember we saw that pitcher’s duel with four guys from the home team and three from the visiting team?  That was great.”  Ugh.

You are 100% right, it just sucks.

Even Britt Burns went a full nine innings vs Orioles in the playoff game four. He might have even given up the homer in the 10th. Now ... LOL, five inning wonders.

[oldsox]

18 hours ago, WestEddy said:

I seem to remember reading that as the Phillies fell out of first place in 1964, Dick Allen became a focus of the press, even though the guy hit .419/.471/.710 from 9/18 through the end of the season. 

I thought Gene Mauch was the focus of the press in 1964.

[Highland]

22 hours ago, Falstaff said:

In 1963 Dick Allen was the first black professional baseball player in the state of Arkansas. This might sound unbelievable but add in he did this at the height of the Civil Rights Movement.  If you want to look at Allen's career stats and discount him because he didn't hit 500 homers or 3,000 hits, I think you have to understand the struggles he went through in Arkansas and then Philly for being born black and how that impacted hiss baseball career.

if I had a vote Dick Allen would have already been in the HoF.

Dick Allen's Journey - BallNine

Allen was scarred by his experience in Arkansas. He is still the most talented player I had ever seen play on the White Sox. He had his issues and under-achieved.  I think he enjoyed his experience in Chicago.  He really should have a better career. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

47 minutes ago, Highland said:

Allen was scarred by his experience in Arkansas. He is still the most talented player I had ever seen play on the White Sox. He had his issues and under-achieved.  I think he enjoyed his experience in Chicago.  He really should have a better career. 

Dick Allen was King  of Chicago in 1972. That iconic Sports Illustrated cover juggling baseballs with a cigarette dangling from his lips.

https://metalposters.com/featured/chicago-white-sox-dick-allen-june-12-1972-sports-illustrated-cover.html?product=metal-print

[Lip Man 1]

8 hours ago, greg775 said:

Even Britt Burns went a full nine innings vs Orioles in the playoff game four. He might have even given up the homer in the 10th. Now ... LOL, five inning wonders.

Burns did go into the 10th and gave up Landrum's home run. 

[Falstaff]

1 hour ago, Highland said:

Allen was scarred by his experience in Arkansas. He is still the most talented player I had ever seen play on the White Sox. He had his issues and under-achieved.  I think he enjoyed his experience in Chicago.  He really should have a better career. 

In 1967 I was 10 years old, we went on a 2-week family vacation. We drove from Chicago to New Orleans and then to Biloxi Mississippi, Mobile Alabama and Pensacola Florida.  I saw firsthand the way blacks were treated and couldn't believe it. I could just imagine a ballplayer like Dick Allen growing up in Pennsylvania and the culture shock he went through and the emotional scars he endured. So many black and brown players before Allen paved the way and are never heard of or talked about, it's sad.

1966 was the year the first Black football player was allowed to play in the SEC. 

Edited November 6 by Falstaff